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Re - refillable gas bottles


Syd

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I think it would be a good idea for someone to place on here at least one method of doing this as safely as posible.

To that end here is the method that we use, bearing in mind that we are tuggers

 

We have the normal gas filling point used by everyone fastened to the side of the tow hitch, the oposite side to the electric connector, with the correct mounting bracket.

 

From the gas filling point we have a purpose made high pressure hose (Black and about one and a quarter inches thich) that is made purposely to fit the filling point and readily available on the shelf from most gas installers, leading into the back of our towing vehicle via a very conveniently placed rubber plugged hole. Keep this hose as short as posible

 

The empty refillable bottle is strapped into the rear of the vehicle in the upright position, the hose is then securely connected to the filling point on the bottle, the outlet valve is checked again to be in the closed position.

 

Drive to the garage, and with the boot closed, connect the supply pump to the filling point and simply fill the bottle until the pump stops, We know how many litres our bottle holds so I also keep an eye on the pump clock simply to ensure that we dont go over the top.

The supply pump will not supply any gas unless it is correctly connected to the filling point so no worries about not being correctly connected and shooting gas everwhere, that simply cannot happen.

 

Pay for gas, drive to a reasonably isolated spot then lift the bottle from the vehicle and SLOWLY loosen the filling pipe from the bottle filling point just a LITTLE, wait for the gas to escape and slowly loosen the pipe some more until gas stops escaping and then remove the pipe altogether from the bottle and replace the bottle into the rear of the car and fasten it down. Job done.

 

The only risk factor that we have is the emptying of the gas that is in the pipe between the filling point and the bottle filling valve hence the selecting of a reasonably isolated spot and the SLOW release of this gas.

 

DO NOT SMOKE or have any naked flame anywhere nearby when doing this.

 

Our method of doing this came from a bottled gas supplier who also supplied the correct parts and bottle,DO NOT MAKE UP A SYSTEM FROM "HANDY BITS, USE THE PROPER PARTS and you will be safe.

A refillable bottle means that no matter where you may go or for how long you may be away all you need to carry is one refillable bottle and one small calorgas bottle.

The large calor bottle costs around £23/24 and a refill in Europe costs around 14 euro's

 

Syd

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

hi syd and everyone else

 

May be I have read your post wrong but why would you do this, don't you just fit the gaslow bottles in your caravan and refill them at the petrol station as normal, we have done this since 2004 when we fitted gaslow bottles to or caravan. We tour both England and Europe and have never had any problems.

 

Why take the risk of filling them and then moving them from the car to the caravan

 

justbuzme

 

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I'm going to point you towards this long forum thread begun in October 2011 - Syd entered the discussion on Page 4.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25421&start=1

 

(Just for the record, out of curiosity I contacted Coleman (who deal with Campingaz in the UK) and asked if there was anything in the Campingaz terms and conditions, or any UK regulation, that would legally prohibit the 'owner' of a Campingaz bottle from refilling it, instead of exchanging an empty Campingaz bottle for a full one. I did not receive a negative reply, so it's fair to asume that , if anyone with a Campingaz bottle wishes to refill it themself using the method suggested by Peter in his original October posting, there's no legal reason preventing them from doing so.)

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It is true that the law is an ass in this area by not giving a clear definition on what can and connot be done.

 

BUT - the old rule of thumb "Just because you can does not mean that you should" really does apply here.

 

As I have said in other posts - it is my understanding that insurance companies have stipulated that filling separate bottles invalidates the garages insurance.

 

The reason is some pretty hairy things happening in Oz in the main where old rusty canisters, some with dents in, were being re-filled. On checking them their structural integrity was found to be seriously compromised. I am certainly not saying that people here would do such a crazy thing - but some would I am sure.

 

Personally - when it is so easy to have the gas bottles plumbed in with a proper filler fitted neatly in the side of the cvan/MH I do not see why anyone would take the risk.

 

And Syd - If you have made a pipe up to carry LPG - it needs to be certificated to be used legally.

 

One point - I am assuming that the filling pump is the standard LPG Autogas one? - Because if so - our local one and the one at out nearest motorway service centre both have a notice saying that the filling of stand alone gas bottles is forbidden.

 

So assuming we would all abide by such a rule - where would anyone re-fill a stand alone bottle? My local Calor Gas centre certainly does not allow it. So what supplier does?

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CliveH - 2012-02-27 8:11 PM

 

...So assuming we would all abide by such a rule - where would anyone re-fill a stand alone bottle? My local Calor Gas centre certainly does not allow it. So what supplier does?

 

The website relating to the "Safefill" stand-alone gas-bottle carries a map marking refill centres that (presumably) will refill Safefill bottles or permit user-refilling.

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/refilling-retailers.html

 

I've no idea what the insurance position is regarding the marked refill centres, nor whether the suppliers of LPG to those centres has approved the refilling of Safefill bottles. These are issues you might want to explore with Safefill or with the marked refill centres themselves.

 

For self-evident commercial reasons, it's unlikely that a refilling centre operated by a company that markets 'hire' LPG bottles (eg. Calor) will agree to refill stand-alone gas bottles, in the same way that Calor gas-bottle retailers will only exchange Calor bottles.

 

You might enjoy this forum thread relating to refilling gas-bottles

 

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=24394

 

Page 3 is particularly intriguing

 

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=24394&page=3

 

It shows a home-made adapter to convert a £4.50 gas pigtail with a POL connector on one end and a 3/8 L/H nut on the other into a pigtail with a POL connector on both ends. In fact, a pigtail with two POL connectors is readily available commercially for about £5.

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Interesting info Derek - many thanks.

 

Certainly Safefill seem to have coverred the bases. But I think the big issue is as the state on their website - some garage filling stations may refuse to refill any stand alone bottle.

 

Even they state that refilling rented bottles is dangerous.

 

Again - I can see your point re what the likes of Calor wish to do to protect their "market" - but my local Calor chap has made it quite clear that as an autogas outlet he has no problem with supplying the gas in what ever way the customer wants it.

 

The issue is that for safety purposes they know all their cylinders are checked.

 

Someone rolling up with one that they have no idea as to its history means that they would have to take on trust that the cylinder in question is "OK".

 

So yes it is easy to simply say that they are protecting their market - but when they sell autogas as well and with delivery costs for them to distribute their rented cyinders ever increasing - I am not sure that "protectionism" is a valid argument.

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Is there any definiton of what constitutes a 'stand alone' cylinder?

 

Yes, I fully accept that putting a Calor or whatever bottle on the ground beside the pump is a 'stand alone', but if the cylinder is only tied inside a gas locker does that not mean the same? I had assumed that garages would only allow re filling of built in gas tanks that are if you wish, hard plumbed, not merely through detachable hoses. This to my mind meant that it was more aimed at MH's where built in tanks are relatively common but not caravans where they are rare.

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I think the issue is how the various insurance companies view what can happen to stand alone cylinders. Cylinders that are fixed within a vehicle and plumbed in are seen to be "protected" in that they sit in their nice little cubbyholes and probably get regular pressure checks.

 

As I said before - the situation they found in Australia was more than a little frightening. Old cylinders with rust, dents and no "history" whatsoever were being filled from autogas stations when LPG as autogas took off in Australia in a big way. - In Oz, big diesels often have a supplimentary LPG feed to boost efficiency.

 

So whilst the law - as I understand it - does not forbid the filling of stand alone cylinders - the insurance cover for most filling stations forbids the filling of stand alone cylinders. Most Autogas outlets even forbid the use of adapters.

 

Presumably this makes the assumption that cylinders fixed in place are less likely to be damaged and have been properly installed with the proper filling nozzle.

 

Filling up a stand alone cylinder using adapters and tubing knocked up by "Fred in a shed" is a clear cause for concern. And one that like it or not - the insurance companies do not like at all.

 

I suspect that your own insurance is invalid unless you tell them what you are doing and I doubt any would then "approve" it. As for filling stations (autogas) - It is my understanding that the insurance companies insist that stand alone cylinders are NOT filled at autogas filling points.

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Dave225 - 2012-03-06 8:50 PM

 

Is there any definiton of what constitutes a 'stand alone' cylinder?

 

Yes, I fully accept that putting a Calor or whatever bottle on the ground beside the pump is a 'stand alone', but if the cylinder is only tied inside a gas locker does that not mean the same? I had assumed that garages would only allow re filling of built in gas tanks that are if you wish, hard plumbed, not merely through detachable hoses. This to my mind meant that it was more aimed at MH's where built in tanks are relatively common but not caravans where they are rare.

 

As far as refilling a gas-container with autogas is concerned, I would define a 'stand alone cylinder' (or a 'portable bottle') as a container that needs to be (or has been) disconnected from the vehicle it's to be used in to allow the container to be refilled. It's worth saying though that, when a prohibiting notice is posted at an autogas refilling outlet, it may well be even less specific - the notice at my nearest Countrywide outlet just says "DO NOT FILL BOTTLES".

 

I've quoted the view of the UKLPG organisation in my posting of 6/2/2012 in this earlier forum thread

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25421&start=151

 

I don't know how the UKLPG would view Syd's refilling methodology - nor do I really care.

 

This subject has been done to death on the Motorhome forums and people will either choose a gas-tank or a fixed refillable gas-bottle installation as recommended by UKLPG or they won't. The alternatives range from 'hired' bottles (eg. Calor), where user-refilling with autogas would contravene the terms of the hire-contract, through 'owned' single-hole bottles (eg. MTHA & SafeFill composite containers) that need to be disconnected to refill them, to canisters (eg. Gaslow, Alugas, Stako) that do not need to be disconnected for refilling but can be refilled directly via an on-bottle adapter should the user so wish, rather than via a filling-point remote from the bottle.

 

There's no requirement to be a rocket scientist to appreciate that the least risky and least controversial refillable-bottle arrangement is undoubtedly that recommended by UKLPG. But, if it suits people to do otherwise (and I'm in that category) and they understand what that choice involves, then that's fine by me.

 

I've have no difficulty understanding the thinking behind Syd's technique - in fact, I'm mildly surprised that a caravanner would opt for a fixed refillable gas-bottle installation as I would have envisaged serious potential problems manoeuvering the car + caravan ensemble close enough to an autogas pump to allow the caravan's refilling inlet to be reached. However, I'm not a caravanner so those problems may be more imagined than real.

 

On another forum thread I asked if Gaslow's policy regarding directly filling their bottles via an 'on-bottle' adapter was changing.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25932&posts=16

 

There's a piece about this on Page 227 of the latest (April 2012) issue of MMM and more details on this link:

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/

 

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