You are logged in as a guest. 
  Home Forums Home  Search our Forums Search our Forums    Log in to the Forums Log in to the Forums  register Register on the Forums  

 Forums ->  General Chat -> Chatterbox
Jump to page : First 1 2 Last
Format:  Go
Asian Sexploiter Groups
AuthorMessage
userStuartO
Posted: 10 August 2017 9:14 AM
Subject: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


The convictions of a group of 18 asian men (and one white woman) in Newcastle were announced with a suggestion by a lady who I think is the Chief Executive of the Local Authority that this sort of thing is happening all over UK, in many towns and cities, and if it hasn't been spotted it's because those responsible aren't looking. There doesn't seem to any suggestion that it's not always groups of ethnically asian men (who are also of muslim origins) who are doing this so presumably it's towns and cities where there are substantial numbers of people of asian origin.  The Newcastle group are said to be, unlike some other groups of sexual predators of asians, mostly British-born, which suggests that it's ethnic origin or tribal associations among these population groups which are the basis of the offending.

How do we grasp this nettle?  Do we also need to grasp the other nettles of widespread criminal conduct (not just sex offences) among ethnic or tribal groups?




userRandonneur
Posted: 10 August 2017 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Forum master

Posts: 2073
20002525
Location: Cheshire, 2007 Autotrail Tracker EKS SE


Would suggest that this post is moved to Chatterbox.
userpelmetman
Posted: 12 August 2017 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 16861
50005000500010005001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Careful Stuart ..........You'll annoy our resident ethnic minority defenders by pointing out the obvious ........





userantony1969
Posted: 17 August 2017 7:30 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5371
50001001001002525
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Within 30 miles of me Keighley , Bradford , Huddersfield , Halifax , Rotherham , Rochdale to name a few ... All Muslim rape gangs all raping white under age girls ... Purely coincidence and nothing to do with what one of those convicted shouted out about how they view white girls in court of course ... Those Muslim rape gangs are repeated up and down Blighty ... Those who deny the problem add to it and inevitably by trying to shout the problem down they allow Muslims to rape more white victims ... Shame on em
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 August 2017 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 16861
50005000500010005001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4796424/Labour-frontbencher-quits-article-racial-abuse.html?login#readerCommentsCommand-message-field

I see Corbyn is just another brain dead PC denier ..........

As far as I'm concerned that makes him just as guilty as the Asian peado perverts .......

userantony1969
Posted: 18 August 2017 6:35 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5371
50001001001002525
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Hes denier numero uno Dave ... Nice to see those 'Asians' in Spain are representing 'the religion of peace' well ... It sure is a news hogger that religion ... Big sympathies to those murdered yesterday
userStuartO
Posted: 18 August 2017 8:18 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


The obstacle to progress dealing with the wave of child sexual abuse cases we are seeing commited by gangs of people of asian ethnic origin seems to be that the liberal left thinks there is an overriding need to avoid ethnic or racial profiling in what we do, because that is, in their eyes, a bigger wrong.  That was why the Shaddow Women and Equalities Minister had to apologise for her choice of words and resign.  The prospect of tackling the appaling criminality of the sexual abuse cases stalls yet again.

We live in a democracy in which everyone has a vote and those with the loudest or best deployed voices, in this media-driven age seem to carry the day.  Liberalism is in the ascendency.

Racial profiling isn't the only overriding modern sin; the latest one seems to be to make any sort of public criticism of gender reassignment, even among children, because individuals have a right to make a choice and must therefore be assisted as well as allowed to make these choices.  Common sense is out of the window and it won't be long before we're all be required to dress all babies in yellow and call them "it" until they express their choice.

I fear for our democracy because I believe there are many people, so far going along with it all, hoping that it will stop, who are not likely to tolerate this pattern indefinitely and that democracy itself will be the victim.  We risk a huge and probably violent upheaval and a period of non-democratic rule because democracy is being hijacked and distorted by the silly idea that liberal principle should override the need to deal with serious criminality.

It is not enough, Veronica, to acknowledge that these cases of sexual abuse by gangs of men are serious crimes if at the same time you are adding "but you must not engage in racial profiling in order to deal with it".
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 August 2017 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


StuartO - 2017-08-18 8:18 AM.....................I fear for our democracy because I believe there are many people, so far going along with it all, hoping that it will stop, who are not likely to tolerate this pattern indefinitely and that democracy itself will be the victim.  We risk a huge and probably violent upheaval and a period of non-democratic rule because democracy is being hijacked and distorted by the silly idea that liberal principle should override the need to deal with serious criminality.......................

I’ve stayed away from this up to now, because its trajectory and likely participants are totally predictable (correct so far ). Stuart’s comment above is more than a bit hyperbolic, verging on hysteria. It is, as he says, his fear: it is emotion, but it is hardly rational.

First a definition.

Liberal: (a definition lifted from The Free Dictionary - choose your own to suit your point of view )
1.
a. Favoring reform, open to new ideas, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; not bound by traditional thinking; broad-minded.
b. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
c. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

Where in that definition do you find the slightest hint that “Liberals” (however one chooses to define them) take the view that (their) “liberal principle should override the need to deal with serious criminality”? It seems to me a description of a mindset fundamental to democratic principles.

To your concern: yes, there is a particular problem with groups of predominantly Asian men in the UK, from a particular religious/cultural background, committing serious sexual crimes against disadvantaged and vulnerable non-Asian girls. I see evidence that this is recognised by the appropriate authorities at senior level. Equally, I see evidence that it was not previously recognised, and acted upon, as it should have been.

It is clear it must be vigorously dealt with, but in doing that we need to avoid the equally (possibly more) damaging result of stigmatising all other members of that group as potential offenders. To do that risks provoking a violent backlash, potentially leading to race riots. We cannot just lock them all up, “in case”. We cannot make a sector of our population scapegoats on ethnic or religious grounds, because we need their active cooperation, because we should risk radicalising the already disaffected, and because it would be a fundamental injustice. But also because this is not the only area in which failure to adapt to “British” cultural and social norms mars relations with this segment of our society.

This issue is an accident of British history much wider than sexual criminality (of which that is but one strand), and it is going to take generations to fully resolve. Our problem in dealing with it is to cultivate and “bring over” those who reject integration, without alienating those who are integrating, or are already integrated, in the process.

However that is to be achieved, I don’t see this forum, or calculatedly guileful contributions to it, as useful. Nor do I see authoritarianism as a likely route to success. It will take time, effort, patience, cool heads, and wise counsel, to achieve. Sadly, on present evidence, those characteristics are in short supply but, hopefully, they will prevail.
userantony1969
Posted: 18 August 2017 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5371
50001001001002525
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Not wanting to offend those of a certain religion is the reason why hundreds if not thousands of further innocent white girls have been attacked ... I'll not call them vulnerable because I don't know all the victims and no one else does so how or why vulnerable needs to be used in the description of these girls is beyond me , they are mostly underage white girls and described by some convicted of abusing them as white slags and sluts only good for men like them ... I wished you'd stayed away Brian as your response is as you put it predictable but hey-ho its a free world still ... I think
userStuartO
Posted: 18 August 2017 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


I used liberal with a small "l" Brian, so your definitions of Liberal (big "L") are irrelevant.  I would include Jeremy Corbyn in my concept of blinkered liberals.

I think people who espouse liberal ideas and want to exercise liberal vetoes on action against criminality and have no direct experience of the intercultural pressures and tensions which have built up in many of our (mainly Northern) cities - and are blind to the scale criminality among asians, everything from crash-for-cash rackets to drug dealing to schoolchildren - should open their eyes to reality.  If we, as a society, do not grasp this nettle of wholesale criminality among non-integrated non-native ethnic groups and interference in efforts to resolve the problems by misguided do-gooders, we will have blood on our hands.  The idea that we must take generations to seduce the asians into integration rather than ever risk stepping on the sensitivities of the asian communities as a whole is just silly.  Of course there are lots of good and godly muslims but that does mean we shouldn't be rooting out the bad ones and recognising, for targetting and intellegence purposes, that they are all asians and they are all nominally muslims.  Genuinely good and godly muslims would surely support efforts to deal with bad ones and if they continue to fail to do so then we have another nettle to grasp.

Nor does it matter that there are plenty of non-asian, non-muslim criminals we need to target as well.  And if they are members of an identifiable ethnic group which engages in criminality (such as the traveller family who were convicted of slavery recently) we should target those groups too.

It's no use just being dismissive of anyone who argues against your view because they are irrational without providing a rational explanation of why.  To do that is no better than slinging personal insults around. 

I know from other posts you've made that you are blessed with supreme self confidence in your judgement and that even if you are faced with overwhelming logical evidence and argument, you will simply reserve your right to hold your opinion anyway.  It's no consolation to me that if our democracy does break down and we do experience riotous rebellion, people like you will not be immune from being targetted.


Edited by StuartO 2017-08-18 2:33 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 18 August 2017 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5371
50001001001002525
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Something else that's predictable ... murder carried out in the name of Islam ... Finland one knifed to death to the famous God is great chant and Dusseldorf another one stabbed to death ... The religion of peace just keeps on giving
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 August 2017 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


StuartO - 2017-08-18 2:20 PM

1 I used liberal with a small "l" Brian, so your definitions of Liberal (big "L") are irrelevant. 

Capitalisation is normal for a one-word heading. The definition, as should be apparent, is of the word liberal, not of the party, so I think it is relevant. Read it again. It describes a social attitude, not a party.

2 I would include Jeremy Corbyn in my concept of blinkered liberals.

Blinkered yes, but not "liberal" in either sense. His action and statement is mealy-mouthed in the extreme. That is not liberal: that is appeasement.

3 I think people who espouse liberal ideas and want to exercise liberal vetoes on action against criminality and have no direct experience of the intercultural pressures and tensions which have built up in many of our (mainly Northern) cities - and are blind to the scale criminality among asians, everything from crash-for-cash rackets to drug dealing to schoolchildren - should open their eyes to reality. 

I agree, and said as much.

4 If we, as a society, do not grasp this nettle of wholesale criminality among non-integrated non-native ethnic groups and interference in efforts to resolve the problems by misguided do-gooders, we will have blood on our hands. 

But, if we go at it "bull at a gate", we shall also have blood on our hands. So what is your proposal?

5 The idea that we must take generations to seduce the asians into integration rather than ever risk stepping on the sensitivities of the asian communities as a whole is just silly. 

It is not a question of not stepping on their sensitivities; it is a question of not alienating the whole community. Many inhabit what are, in many respects, closed communities that exist uneasily within, but in many cases apart from, our own community. Their skills with English are in many cases poor, despite having spent decades in Britain. There is great scope for misunderstanding when trying to handle delicate issues, but without their voluntary cooperation there is little scope for identifying those behaving badly in whatever way. Policing is a matter of public consent, and if that segment of the public can't be persuaded to consent to being policed, what would the alternative look like?

6 Of course there are lots of good and godly muslims but that does mean we shouldn't be rooting out the bad ones and recognising, for targetting and intellegence purposes, that they are all asians and they are all nominally muslims.  Genuinely good and godly muslims would surely support efforts to deal with bad ones and if they continue to fail to do so then we have another nettle to grasp.

As 5, how do we do that "rooting out" in the absence of active cooperation from the majority? There is little evidence to date that the majority have been pestering the police to take action against those that some at least must have known were involved in these activities. It seems overly simplistic to divide the community between the "good and godly", and the criminal, elements. Many are somewhere between: they won't inform, whether because of fear of reprisal, or because of tacit support for the perpetrators. I think your "other nettle" is/ and always has been, the reality.

7 Nor does it matter that there are plenty of non-asian, non-muslim criminals we need to target as well.  And if they are members of an identifiable ethnic group which engages in criminality (such as the traveller family who were convicted of slavery recently) we should target those groups too.

Well yes, but who is suggesting that? Certainly not me. Notwithstanding, there must first be reasonable grounds for suspicion, not crude stereotyping. Softly, softly, catchee monkey!

8 It's no use just being dismissive of anyone who argues against your view because they are irrational without providing a rational explanation of why.  To do that is no better than slinging personal insults around. 

I thought I had provided a rational explanation as to why I disagree. I think we have to act with subtlety and delicacy, because if we don't we shall exacerbate the problem we wish, I assume, to overcome without bloodshed.

9 I know from other posts you've made that you are blessed with supreme self confidence in your judgement and that even if you are faced with overwhelming logical evidence and argument, you will simply reserve your right to hold your opinion anyway. 

Ah, the true Stuart! Forget the argument and attack the person. Always a pleasure to debate with you!

10 It's no consolation to me that if our democracy does break down and we do experience riotous rebellion, people like you will not be immune from being targeted.

Nor would it be to me, though I fear the outcome you cite would be more likely were your approach to be adopted. I'm not denying the problem, just that you seem to be advocating an approach to it that I think would prove counter-productive. This will not be solved quickly: it has lingered for far too long.
userStuartO
Posted: 19 August 2017 9:22 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


Brian, it does not follow from you feeling you have made a rational response that the person you are responding to was irrational; if you accuse of irrationality you should explain why, otherwise as I have said you are merely throwing out a personal insult.

And if you do that, you should hardly be surprised if it's pointed out that you have a track record of not giving way to logic and wholesale contrary thinking, prefering instead to say that you will stick to your own view.  That makes it difficult to engage you in open minded discussion because it suggests that you do not have an open and questioning mind.  Rather like Jeremy Corbyn and nuclear disarmament!

I'm sorry if you feel that pointing this out (I could look up the thread if you need reminding) is insulting you.  At least I didn't call you arrogant or opinionated by nature, which I might have done; I was merely indicating that faced with your tendency to a closed mind, I would not bother trying to change it.

I have asked the question "how do we grasp this nettle", because I don't really know the answer, although I am convinced that it needs grasping and that political correctness and its advocates lie in the way.  At no stage (on this thread at least) have I offered any practical solution, never mind any solution involving rushing in.  But I certainly don't want to take several generations to integrate the muslim community by persuasion rather than risk treading on politically correct toes.  I think that trying to do that boils down to a continuing policy of appeasement, which is part of what has got us where we are today.  The muslim faith presents us with problems even if you think the bad muslims are merely a rogue minority - which I don't.  As Anthony points out from time to time, this faith system, in its original form, which cannot, according to many muslims, be changed from its orginal form at all, does aim to encompass and dominate everyone and everywhere in the name of Allah and it does make a duty of jehad.

Radio 4 this morning included an interviewer who cited a book by a respected thinker which asserts that Europe is in the process of committing suicide by allowing mass immigration by muslims who then fail to integrate - and for the BBC to have an interviewer giving that sort of idea air time maybe even they are starting to catch on that there's a big problem.  I must listen again on IPlayer and get a copy; it might contain some constructive thinking.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 August 2017 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Sorry if I was not clear. I said I thought your argument irrational because it homed in on (arguably) the worst of all the possible outcomes. Having postulated that outcome, you argued that it must be solved. The problem I see with that, is that your analysis may, or may not, be right, leaving the imperative to "tackle" the problem as postulated questionable, and so to me somewhat irrational. Put another way, you seemed to me in danger of tilting at windmills so, as your loyal Sancho, I felt obliged to warn you of the danger.

The problem with the "logical" argument is whether we all find its logic compelling. The same applies to contrary thinking. It should not be surprising if someone resists arguments that they do not find compelling. There is little point in holding an opinion, that one has reached after due consideration, if one merely resiles from it at the first whiff of gunsmoke. Equally, there is no point in continuing to hold it after it has been demolished. I don't think this portrays a closed mind, just that one needs greater and better persuasion of the merit of an alternative opinion.

I don't profess to know how we should solve the broader problem of a large number of people living in our community who have failed, in some cases refused, to integrate. You say "At no stage (on this thread at least) have I offered any practical solution, never mind any solution involving rushing in" but go on to say "But I certainly don't want to take several generations to integrate the Muslim community by persuasion rather than risk treading on politically correct toes." The two seem to me mutually exclusive. Why? As an example, I was struck while watching several programmes on the partition of India, by interviews with people who had fled to Britain at the time. They were a mix of Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim ex-refugees. They were children when the arrived, and must have completed their educations in UK but, notwithstanding having lived in UK for the past 70 years, had not become fully conversant with English. I assume this is probably because their parents did not speak English at home, and because they had generally socialised with other people with similar backgrounds. Their children also appeared, and were much more fluent with the language, but still had one foot back in the sub-continent, not least because they maintained contact with, and visited, members of their extended families who had remained. These are perfectly normal human bonds, but they illustrate the time it takes for normal people to leap between, and fully adapt to, what are quite radically different cultures.

Trying to hustle along that process of full integration, as we should know from our own history, is a long term project. In the case of those from the Indian sub-continent, it is made more difficult by the long and sometimes appalling history of our relationship (search lascars, for example), which begins with the East India company back in the 16C. Many of the early migrants were badly treated, and seem to have avoided mixing for that reason. History casts long shadows! This seems to have become customary, with new waves of migration understandably congregating around longer settled migrants to form virtual ghettos: then remaining largely separate as little Pakistans and Indias within our towns. There are an estimated 3,000,000 migrants from Asia in UK; nearly 5% of the population. That is why I argue that patience, wisdom, and cool heads will be required to encourage greater integration. Anything that appears to be forcing integration will open old wounds, with inevitably bloody consequence. Equally, anything that further agitates the native population, and suggests that anyone who looks Asian is a potential threat, seems to me likely to have similarly bloody consequences. We may think they should reach out to us, the host community, but I think this mistaken, not least because they have hitherto shown little willingness to do so - I suspect for those historic (and not always distant) reasons.

A local shop is run by a family of ex London Sikhs. The owner has abandoned his turban. I expressed surprise at this, and he replied uneasily that it was because it encouraged prejudice. Naïve or not, I was shocked. But, whenever they want work done they turn to the Sikh community, and they don't socialise with the local community, so they can hardly be described as having integrated, having merely arrived at a basic modus vivendi.

So, as above, I don't think it will be easy, or quick, and it must be done with great sensitivity, or it will backfire badly. My own conclusion is also that it must be done by us, the native population, since there is so little evidence of it coming from them. Clearly it is possible, and has been so in the past. In Spain, the Muslims, while more or less cohabiting with Christians and Jews, lived separate lives. In pre-partition India much the same was true. Britain is tolerant and permissive, and Islam has shown in the past that it can be equally so. I see no insurmountable barrier to this being achieved in the UK, providing we proceed with delicacy and diplomacy. This is not helped when a contingent of that broad, easily identifiable, group, is intent on killing as many as possible of those who do not adhere to their distorted version of Islam, while another singles out native females for sexual exploitation. Identifying the potential miscreants from among the broader group without creating the impression that the group as a whole is suffering discrimination, will require at least the aid of saints! But, it somehow has to be done.

As to collective suicide by Europe, I think that hyperbole to sell his book. We have a substantial problem from historic migration. If we can just solve that, we should be able to handle contemporary migrations, and do so much better then hitherto. In the meantime, I think we need to curtail further immigration from the middle east and Asia while we get our (diplomatic) act together. Sorry - too long, but I don't have the time to edit down!
userStuartO
Posted: 20 August 2017 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


Brian, you are using waffly words to camoflage what is essentially a silly arguement.

I argued that asian/muslim group criminality has become rife (i.e. it's now a very big problem) because the ethnic basis of it was being ignored and we should grasp the nettle and not allow political correctness to get in our way.

What bit of that is irrational?  Are you really saying that I may be wrong (eg I have an exaggerated an exaggerated view of the problem) and that its association with asian communities may be spurious (because the asians you know, for example your local Sikh Shop keeper, are nice people) and that's makes my posts irrational?

It's perfectly rational, if you think there is a problem which political correctness has obscured, to suggest that the problem needs tackling, therefore political correctness needs to be swept aside.  You might disagree, you might think my analysis to be incorrect, but that does make my proposition in any way irrational!

I'm not at all clear about what you are arguing for either Brian and I fear you are just waffling with long words rather than saying anything useful.


userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 August 2017 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


StuartO - 2017-08-20 8:44 AM

Brian, you are using waffly words to camoflage what is essentially a silly arguement. I argued that asian/muslim group criminality has become rife (i.e. it's now a very big problem) because the ethnic basis of it was being ignored and we should grasp the nettle and not allow political correctness to get in our way. What bit of that is irrational?  Are you really saying that I may be wrong (eg I have an exaggerated an exaggerated view of the problem) and that its association with asian communities may be spurious (because the asians you know, for example your local Sikh Shop keeper, are nice people) and that's makes my posts irrational? It's perfectly rational, if you think there is a problem which political correctness has obscured, to suggest that the problem needs tackling, therefore political correctness needs to be swept aside.  You might disagree, you might think my analysis to be incorrect, but that does make my proposition in any way irrational! I'm not at all clear about what you are arguing for either Brian and I fear you are just waffling with long words rather than saying anything useful.

No, I was trying to present you with a reasoned argument (in which I set out my reasoning), since you asked me to do so. You seem now to want the argument without the reason! OK, so be it.

In a nutshell, you have conjured up a bleak vision of the future, based on your own reasoning. This vision worries you - you therefore want it tackled. Your recipe for tackling it involves abandonment of "political correctness". As I understand you, if that is done, all will somehow be resolved. That is all I understand of your argument. I said I thought this irrational, to which you take exception. That I also get.

Our difference, which you seem reluctant to accept, is that I don't agree with your bleak vision (though I do agree that we have a present problem), and I don't agree that just abandoning political correctness (in part because you haven't defined exactly what you mean) will bring a solution.

You argue above that you are being logical: I think you are not. I think you are not because you rest your entire argument on the assumption that your vision, and proposed remedy, are respectively inevitable and the solution. I think they are neither. I think you are proposing a non-solution to a problem that may not come to pass.

As I see it, we have a number of problems with a substantial proportion of our 3 million Asian immigrants. These problems stem mainly, IMO, from cultural, not ethnic, differences. Within that same broad group there is a) a terrorist threat based on a distorted version of Islam, that pitches those who have adopted it against us all, whatever ethnic or religious group we are from, b) a tendency to commit sexual crimes against non-Asian women, and c) a general tendency to petty lawlessness.

All have been exacerbated by various officials refusing to investigate, or act, in case this provokes or offends the group as a whole. If that dereliction of duty is all you mean by political correctness, and all you mean by abandoning political correctness is that those responsible should forthwith commence doing their jobs without fear or favour, I, and I suspect everyone else, agree with you. My impression is that this message has already been received loud and clear, and that the gloves are now off.

But, from your posts, it seems you are looking for more than that. Am I wrong?
userStuartO
Posted: 20 August 2017 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


Brian Kirby - 2017-08-21 4:03 AM  ....In a nutshell, you have conjured up a bleak vision of the future, based on your own reasoning.


I haven't conjured up anything, I've simply taken note of what was said at an official press conference about the latest convictions which was that the scale of this criminality is Countrywide and we have failed to tackle it again and again because of fear of being called racist, ie because of political correctness.  Because of these official comments are worthy of being taken seriously (and because I have seen many other indications of gang activity and criminality of all sorts in Lancashire) I have asked how we grasp this nettle.  That's all.
 
Brian Kirby - 2017-08-21 4:03 AM  ...  Your recipe for tackling it involves abandonment of "political correctness". As I understand you, if that is done, all will somehow be resolved.


I haven't said that, I have simply said that we need to overcome the obstacle which political correctness has imposed.  You are extrapolating (ad absurdum) all on your own by suggesting I have suggested "abandonment" of anything.

Unless this problem of turning a blind eye to large scale and criminality for fear of being called racists, is dealt with I believe there will be a risk of a violent backlash.  You can regard it as a bleak vision if you like and I can't pretend I'm happy about it being a prospect but does that make it in any way irrational as a view?  A violent backlash is a logical possible consequence of the trend and we would be foolish to pretend otherwise.  There are plenty of examples in history of inter-racial tensions escalating into violence.

If you would stop jumping to exaggerated conclusions and read my posts more carefully, we could perhaps have a sensible discussion.  And shouldn't you give some credibility to those of us who have had direct experience of criminality among large asian communities, rather than base your view on the contact you've had with your Sikh shopkeeper?


Edited by StuartO 2017-08-20 1:57 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 August 2017 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Way back you said "I fear for our democracy because I believe there are many people, so far going along with it all, hoping that it will stop, who are not likely to tolerate this pattern indefinitely and that democracy itself will be the victim. We risk a huge and probably violent upheaval and a period of non-democratic rule because democracy is being hijacked and distorted by the silly idea that liberal principle should override the need to deal with serious criminality".

From that, I drew the following conclusions.

1 You think that if the practise of "turning a blind eye" where criminality involves Asian suspects isn't stopped, vigilante groups, or similar will develop, possibly provoking a violent backlash from the immigrant community, possibly leading to widespread race riots. If that interpretation of your first sentence jumps to too many conclusions, please say. If it is fair, then I share your general unease.

2 You think that this may spiral out of control to the point at which democracy is supplanted by some alternative form of government. As above, if that is incorrect, please say. Otherwise, if that is fair, I disagree. This is where I think you are conjuring nightmares. I think our democratic institutions will survive, albeit there may be more, and more visible, armed police around, possibly with military support. However, even were that to be the case I think our normal means of government, both central and local, would continue to function.

Moving on, so far as political correctness is concerned, I share your concern, but I think that phase is now largely, if not completely, behind us, and need not be a matter of present concern. That doesn't mean no more cases will emerge; I suspect they will. However, I think the adverse publicity and criticism of those guilty of turning the blind eye hitherto, means that the practise has ceased, and the relevant authorities will now carry out their duty properly. If they don't, the remedy lies in the ballot box and the P45.

However, what follows from that is how the authorities are to proceed with the Asian communities. That is where I think the greater difficulty, and potential danger, lies. For example, stop and search, based on profiling, has not proved a great success. It generates a backlash from among the communities that are most affected, with widespread allegations of racial bias. That backlash has led previously to incidents of rioting. Policing in UK is generally by consent, and relies on cooperation between police, and policed. For that to work, there must be trust.

This broad Asian community is made of a number of strands, only some of which are perpetrating the crimes, mainly Pakistani, mainly Muslim. Ethnically, they are pretty much identical to Indians (both Hindu, and Sikh), Afghans, and others from the same geographical region, so difficult to identify with certainty. It seems to me that this presents a considerable challenge unless the Pakistani Muslim community can be persuaded to trust, and report miscreant behaviour to, the police - which they have hitherto seemed reluctant to do. To persuade them that this is desirable, in everyone's interests including their own, I think we shall have to "court" them, which will require trained resources. We shall have to change ingrained attitudes that tend not to see the police as friends, but rather as a branch of authority that is not to be trusted. That is why I think this will, whatever anyone may want, be a long, slow, haul. I hope I'm wrong.

I can't clarify any better, but I'm inevitably having to interpret the "gaps between the lines" that you leave.
userantony1969
Posted: 20 August 2017 7:39 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5371
50001001001002525
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Brian Kirby - 2017-08-20 7:30 PM

Way back you said "I fear for our democracy because I believe there are many people, so far going along with it all, hoping that it will stop, who are not likely to tolerate this pattern indefinitely and that democracy itself will be the victim. We risk a huge and probably violent upheaval and a period of non-democratic rule because democracy is being hijacked and distorted by the silly idea that liberal principle should override the need to deal with serious criminality".

From that, I drew the following conclusions.

1 You think that if the practise of "turning a blind eye" where criminality involves Asian suspects isn't stopped, vigilante groups, or similar will develop, possibly provoking a violent backlash from the immigrant community, possibly leading to widespread race riots. If that interpretation of your first sentence jumps to too many conclusions, please say. If it is fair, then I share your general unease.

2 You think that this may spiral out of control to the point at which democracy is supplanted by some alternative form of government. As above, if that is incorrect, please say. Otherwise, if that is fair, I disagree. This is where I think you are conjuring nightmares. I think our democratic institutions will survive, albeit there may be more, and more visible, armed police around, possibly with military support. However, even were that to be the case I think our normal means of government, both central and local, would continue to function.

Moving on, so far as political correctness is concerned, I share your concern, but I think that phase is now largely, if not completely, behind us, and need not be a matter of present concern. That doesn't mean no more cases will emerge; I suspect they will. However, I think the adverse publicity and criticism of those guilty of turning the blind eye hitherto, means that the practise has ceased, and the relevant authorities will now carry out their duty properly. If they don't, the remedy lies in the ballot box and the P45.

However, what follows from that is how the authorities are to proceed with the Asian communities. That is where I think the greater difficulty, and potential danger, lies. For example, stop and search, based on profiling, has not proved a great success. It generates a backlash from among the communities that are most affected, with widespread allegations of racial bias. That backlash has led previously to incidents of rioting. Policing in UK is generally by consent, and relies on cooperation between police, and policed. For that to work, there must be trust.

This broad Asian community is made of a number of strands, only some of which are perpetrating the crimes, mainly Pakistani, mainly Muslim. Ethnically, they are pretty much identical to Indians (both Hindu, and Sikh), Afghans, and others from the same geographical region, so difficult to identify with certainty. It seems to me that this presents a considerable challenge unless the Pakistani Muslim community can be persuaded to trust, and report miscreant behaviour to, the police - which they have hitherto seemed reluctant to do. To persuade them that this is desirable, in everyone's interests including their own, I think we shall have to "court" them, which will require trained resources. We shall have to change ingrained attitudes that tend not to see the police as friends, but rather as a branch of authority that is not to be trusted. That is why I think this will, whatever anyone may want, be a long, slow, haul. I hope I'm wrong.

I can't clarify any better, but I'm inevitably having to interpret the "gaps between the lines" that you leave.


So we must bend over even further backwards to accommodate Muslims for some reason only you can see ... The law is the law is it not ... Why we should have to court Muslims is baffling ... They are massively over represented in prisons , make up most of the racist rape gangs in this country and lets not even start on terrorism , FGM , hatred towards non-believers but you want us to court them further ??? ... God help us ... Cloud ruddy cuckoo land
userStuartO
Posted: 21 August 2017 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


Brian Kirby - 2017-08-21 10:30 AMWay back you said "I fear for our democracy because I believe there are many people, so far going along with it all, hoping that it will stop, who are not likely to tolerate this pattern indefinitely and that democracy itself will be the victim. We risk a huge and probably violent upheaval and a period of non-democratic rule because democracy is being hijacked and distorted by the silly idea that liberal principle should override the need to deal with serious criminality". From that, I drew the following conclusions.1 You think that if the practise of "turning a blind eye" where criminality involves Asian suspects isn't stopped, vigilante groups, or similar will develop, possibly provoking a violent backlash from the immigrant community, possibly leading to widespread race riots. If that interpretation of your first sentence jumps to too many conclusions, please say.


My concern is that there will be a violent upheaval against the asian community, seen by the white majority as criminally threatening, not by it.  Hopefully our politicians would see this coming and act to deal with the problem more credibly and thereby to prevent democracy being replaced by something seen as a more authoritative, assertive in the way of government, something which will impose our laws on the asians - something like Trump supporters expected of him when they voted him in on a populist wave. I hope this will not happen but I see it as a danger of continuing the appeasement and timidity we have seen so far.

Of course the asian community is not homogeneous (those of Hindu and Sikh origins are not the same as the muslims) and therefore the action against criminality needs to be targeted.  But the timidity must end, adequate authorisations (for stop and search etc) need to be in place and when necessary the gloves need to come off and the opportunity for protracted avoidances and diversions must be closed.

About fifteen years ago a friend of mine worked as a Traffic Warden in Preston and was in process of ticketing a car when a dozen or more asians quickly gathered, surrounded him and started heckling him, accusing him of being racist and so on - and they simply wouldn't let him do his job, so he had to call in for support.  His Inspector told him to walk away and abandon issuing the ticket; he said he had wasted too much time already dealing with such situations, it didn't work and he wasn't going to waste any more.  The asians had created a nogo area for imposing parking tickets on their cars.  The seeds of the situation we have now were already well sown.

We have allowed a culture of living as outlaws to become established among asians who want to do their own thing, just as we allow Travellers to be an ethnic group and to continue to do the same, as they did over the weekend in Cromer.

Any clearer?


Edited by StuartO 2017-08-21 9:24 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 21 August 2017 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


Yes, much, and thank you. I agree with your analysis of the risk, and of our need to act to restore the proper rule of law.

I just think we shall have to walk on glass while doing so, in order not to provoke the opposite reaction to the one you fear, and to ensure the net does not expand to include the (as I understand it) much more law-abiding elements of the Asian immigrant group. The problem with targeting, is that to a non-Asian background policeman (the huge majority), one bearded brown face is liable to look much like another. I think we shall need more community police, with specific training, for this task - ideally from within those communities. We shall need hearts and minds just as much as we need bare knuckles. Speak soft, but carry a big stick, as the saying goes. It could so easily go pear shaped if we get it wrong.

FWIW, I also think that as a general rule we should stop printing local authority and government information in urdu or whatever, and put the onus on those communities to learn English. Ditto broadcasting. If one can't read and understand English in Britain, how can one function as a normal resident? How could one effectively report law breaking to the police, or understand a safety instruction?
userStuartO
Posted: 21 August 2017 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


Brian Kirby - 2017-08-22 2:59 AMYes, much, and thank you. I agree with your analysis of the risk, and of our need to act to restore the proper rule of law.I just think we shall have to walk on glass while doing so, in order not to provoke the opposite reaction to the one you fear, and to ensure the net does not expand to include the (as I understand it) much more law-abiding elements of the Asian immigrant group. The problem with targeting, is that to a non-Asian background policeman (the huge majority), one bearded brown face is liable to look much like another. I think we shall need more community police, with specific training, for this task - ideally from within those communities. We shall need hearts and minds just as much as we need bare knuckles. Speak soft, but carry a big stick, as the saying goes. It could so easily go pear shaped if we get it wrong.FWIW, I also think that as a general rule we should stop printing local authority and government information in urdu or whatever, and put the onus on those communities to learn English. Ditto broadcasting. If one can't read and understand English in Britain, how can one function as a normal resident? How could one effectively report law breaking to the police, or understand a safety instruction?


Now we're starting to pool ideas and make constructive progress.

I don't agree that the average policeman can't suss brown people out; the police can be far more selective in their recruiting than hitherto these days, although perhaps the PCSO level might be less people-skilled.  The self-control, tact and proportionality you see the police exercising on these reality TV shows is remarkable - akin to what you refer to as "walking on glass" perhaps.  Since they also have to make a rapid assessment and then switch into physical force mode when dealing with the people who are running or kicking off, I think they are pretty good these days. 

They also have to accept (and seem to do so contentedly) that the CPS will be the ones to decide whether to prosecute so they will often see their efforts come to nought.  I think the way the police have adjusted to using women has come on very nicely too.  There are bound to be some below average coppers and some who work the system (including playing the race card) but overall I think our police are very good.

But the scale of criminality among asians (and Travellers, immigrant Eastern Europeans etc) which our society has allowed to build up, combined with the cuts in police numbers and the ways the CPS and courts have handled things amounts to a huge challenge.  I think it calls for a quantum change in our approach in order to re-establish control , let alone to start to turn the tide.

A big part of the overall problem from my viewpoint is the extent to which people like you, Brian, and Veronica, just don't see the scale of the problem (because it's mostly "up North") and the wealth and freedom we've enjoyed has led to idealised liberal standards and expectations which are not compatible with grasping this big, big nettle.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 21 August 2017 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


StuartO - 2017-08-21 12:37 PM...........................A big part of the overall problem from my viewpoint is the extent to which people like you, Brian, and Veronica, just don't see the scale of the problem (because it's mostly "up North") and the wealth and freedom we've enjoyed has led to idealised liberal standards and expectations which are not compatible with grasping this big, big nettle.

I agree, though I'm a mite wary of the above paragraph.

First, because of this repeated association of liberal values with the assumption that those with such values live down south and are reluctant to deal with criminality. I just don't see the evidence for this locally.

I think your evidence for this probably originates from the behaviour of certain local authorities in the areas concerned, which seem to have been the main culprits. That, to me, indicates a failure on the part of local political parties and electorates. If the officers were no good, and were not doing their jobs, why didn't the elected members deal with them? If the elected members were calling the shots, as employer, why/how were they elected?

Second because it is inevitable that those who inhabit parts of the country unaffected by such disgraceful behaviour would be unaware of what was going on - if they were not told. News doesn't travel by osmosis!

The puzzle is, why has this received so little national attention until the various prosecutions were brought? The national reaction to what has been revealed has been of shame and horror, not complacency. I don't think this has anything to do with the north-south divide, and a whole lot to do with no-one being prepared to stand up and speak out. Why? Is the entire local population cowed, struck mute, given to muttering into their beer, or are they themselves all hyper politically-correct? To live in a sewer and ignore the smell is fine if that is one's choice, but it is no-one else's fault. Are there no local newspapers prepared to print the truth? Do local MPs refuse to face the truth, and draw attention to it in parliament? Who repeatedly elects them? Why? It can't be in the water, surely?
userStuartO
Posted: 22 August 2017 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


2000500100100100252525
Location: Suffolk


Brian Kirby - 2017-08-22 10:05 AM  ....Firstly ......  I just don't see the evidence for this [liberal values constraining the way these problems are tackled] locally.  Your evidence for this probably originates from the behaviour of certain local authorities in the areas concerned, which seem to have been the main culprits. That, to me, indicates a failure on the part of local political parties and electorates. If the officers were no good, and were not doing their jobs, why didn't the elected members deal with them? If the elected members were calling the shots, as employer, why/how were they elected?


Corruption was always there, as was sexual abuse of children by those in power (remember Cyril Smith) but as the asian population in northern towns built up they took over local councils.  Corruption has got much worse, favouring asian community projects as well as for personal gain.  There have also been vote-rigging scandals.  It is perhaps within these towns where a critical mass of asians has built up that this local authority takeover has combined with asian influences in many commercial activities (eg all the taxi drivers are asians) to allow organised sexual exploitation of white girls to be conducted.  I knew a professional man of asian origin, a good and devout man, and we were chatting one day about the prevalence of clients who wasted appointments and didn't pay bills.  I suggested that at least his asian customers would play fairer with him.  He replied that 70% of the time someone failed to pay it would be an asian and 90% of the time someone wasted an appointment it would be an asian.  "They are lower class, ill-educated people for whom morality is something you leave behind you as you walk out of the door of the mosque" he said.

Brian Kirby - 2017-08-22 10:05 AM  .....  Second because it is inevitable that those who inhabit parts of the country unaffected by such disgraceful behaviour would be unaware of what was going on - if they were not told. News doesn't travel by osmosis!


The media have been guilty of suppressing criticism of asian misconduct and criminality because they don't want to be accused of being racist and it's still going on.  Yesterday there was a story about a black woman who was dropped as the England Striker and is now accusing the Manager of racist abuse of her because, she says (and he denies) he said "I hope they don't bring Ebola with them"  when she told him that her family were coming to watch a match from Nigeria.  She said at the time she laughed but now she sees it a racist abuse.  Her account of things is reported at face valu (apart from a brief mention of the Manager's denial he ever said it) without considering the obvious possibility that she is simply be a vengeful rejectee, playing the race card to get some compo.  The media don't publish stories about bad journalism or the private lives of newspaper proprietors or editors either.

It's a big problem.

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 22 August 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


5000500020002000252525
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Hymer Exsis-i 578


StuartO - 2017-08-22 8:37 AM.................It's a big problem.

From what you say, I don't doubt it. In fact, it is a disgrace. May be a silly question, but where are the local MPs in all this? They have the resources (publicly funded), the influence and, to some extent the power, to investigate and publicise what has been happening. Surely they can't all be "plants", selected and elected by Asian majorities of these "lower class, ill-educated people for whom morality is something you leave behind you as you walk out of the door of the mosque" your acquaintance identified? Highlighting this is their job, where the local papers aren't doing theirs. Pressure needs to be applied. Denial is now futile, the evidence seems clear enough, and would be very difficult to brush aside. This is stuff for the Home Secretary and the DCLG. It should be happening.
userantony1969
Posted: 22 August 2017 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5371
50001001001002525
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Brian Kirby - 2017-08-22 11:31 AM

StuartO - 2017-08-22 8:37 AM.................It's a big problem.

From what you say, I don't doubt it. In fact, it is a disgrace. May be a silly question, but where are the local MPs in all this? They have the resources (publicly funded), the influence and, to some extent the power, to investigate and publicise what has been happening. Surely they can't all be "plants", selected and elected by Asian majorities of these "lower class, ill-educated people for whom morality is something you leave behind you as you walk out of the door of the mosque" your acquaintance identified? Highlighting this is their job, where the local papers aren't doing theirs. Pressure needs to be applied. Denial is now futile, the evidence seems clear enough, and would be very difficult to brush aside. This is stuff for the Home Secretary and the DCLG. It should be happening.


MPs are their as are the police and local rags ... What stops them from telliing the truth is political correctness ... Sound familiar ??? ...
One Labour MP tried telling the truth last week only to be pushed by her disgrace of a PC boss
userpelmetman
Posted: 22 August 2017 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 16861
50005000500010005001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


StuartO - 2017-08-21 12:37 PM

But the scale of criminality among asians (and Travellers, immigrant Eastern Europeans etc) which our society has allowed to build up, combined with the cuts in police numbers and the ways the CPS and courts have handled things amounts to a huge challenge. 


We are Now reaping the benefits of the seeds sown by our polictically correct Loony Liberals .......

I wonder how long it'll be before I'm arrested for calling Liberals........ LOONY'S ? ........



Edited by pelmetman 2017-08-22 9:30 PM
usercolin
Posted: 23 August 2017 10:33 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 6810
50001000500100100100
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


antony1969 - 2017-08-22 11:39 AM

Brian Kirby - 2017-08-22 11:31 AM

StuartO - 2017-08-22 8:37 AM.................It's a big problem.

From what you say, I don't doubt it. In fact, it is a disgrace. May be a silly question, but where are the local MPs in all this? They have the resources (publicly funded), the influence and, to some extent the power, to investigate and publicise what has been happening. Surely they can't all be "plants", selected and elected by Asian majorities of these "lower class, ill-educated people for whom morality is something you leave behind you as you walk out of the door of the mosque" your acquaintance identified? Highlighting this is their job, where the local papers aren't doing theirs. Pressure needs to be applied. Denial is now futile, the evidence seems clear enough, and would be very difficult to brush aside. This is stuff for the Home Secretary and the DCLG. It should be happening.


MPs are their as are the police and local rags ... What stops them from telliing the truth is political correctness ... Sound familiar ??? ...
One Labour MP tried telling the truth last week only to be pushed by her disgrace of a PC boss


Two people of asian descent on the TV who have been involved in prosecuting and helping victims are saying she shouldn't have been 'forced' to resign, she was telling the truth, and the awful thing is it's still going on at an alarming rate. Victims are still not being listened to, and whistle blowers are being persecuted.
But lets not forget this is not 'one sided', it is estimated that the majority of abuse is by white groups, but they operate in a different way.
usermalc d
Posted: 23 August 2017 11:26 AM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 
5000100050010010025


In my view the solution to a lot of these problems is to reverse the reduction in the numbers of police on the streets and enforce U.K. laws regardless of race , creed, colour, religion or celebrity status.

All it needs is strong leadership and the will to get things done.

Sadly there is no sign of that happening in the near future.

userantony1969
Posted: 23 August 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: Asian Sexploiter Groups
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5371
50001001001002525
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


malc d - 2017-08-23 11:26 AM

In my view the solution to a lot of these problems is to reverse the reduction in the numbers of police on the streets and enforce U.K. laws regardless of race , creed, colour, religion or celebrity status.

All it needs is strong leadership and the will to get things done.

Sadly there is no sign of that happening in the near future.



But that sounds too much like common sense .... Admit the problem and deal with it and if dealing with the obvious Pakistani/Muslim race rape issue means upsetting some folk then so be it .... Better that than blindly defending them and allowing more rapes surely
Jump to page : First 1 2 Last
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Jump to forum :


(Delete all cookies set by this site)(Return to Homepage)

Any problems? Contact the administrator