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BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
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userLeah
Posted: 8 March 2007 10:28 AM
Subject: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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My friend's car was crushed recently! He could see a supermarket lorry steaming up behind without any apparent recourse to getting out of the way heard a bang, felt his car pushed forwards with such force that it lifted up the back end of a 4 x 4 in front: fortunately she had put on her brakes 'cos she could see what was going to happen so didn't move too far forwards!

It was a T.... lorry driven by a Polish driver ON THE PHONE!!! The Police are not going to press for prosecution because the driver will hytail it out of the UK!

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought using a phone whilst driving a vehicle is a bookable offence Another reason to boycott T.... - do you want to know my other several

Fortunately my friend was only shaken but it was a horrific experience made worse by the lax application of UK Laws
userDave Newell
Posted: 8 March 2007 7:18 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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I suggest your friend writes to her cheif constable and complains about this, I'd also suggest speaking to her MP. Perhaps even contacting Jeremy Vine from Radio 2, he loves to cover stories like this.

D.
userDavid Dwight
Posted: 8 March 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Or is a caseod T---- are so big that money counts, as it did this way when they and another big store wanted to build flagship (at the time)stores they offered to help pay for the local bypass!!!!!!!
David
userW3526602
Posted: 9 March 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Hi,

It was 06.30 on a wet, windy, dark morning on the M4 North of Cardiff .... no, sorry....that was my wife.

I was still asleep when the phone rang. My wife phoning fron the afore mentioned M4. Would I write down the number of the lorry she was following...cos it had hit her and hadn't stopped.

She was in her SAAB in the outer (of 2) lanes, doing 50mph. Traffic in both lanes was passing and repassing. Visibility was poor due to rain. The curtainsider overtook on her inside, and used its tail-lift to do a "tin-opener" job the full length of her car... smashing the fusebox which was mounted on top of the inner wing...and taking out her headlights.

I noted the reg, she said she was coming home, and rang off.

She turned round at next roundabout, saw a police car on its elevated platform, stopped for advice. Plod said it was unsafe to continue, so she phoned Brittania Rescue....who arrived within 20 minutes.

In the meantime, I phoned T------, who said it was a contract driver, and not to worry about sorting things out.

Car arrived home, and tears arrived about two minutes later. Car was a write off, which meant losing wife's NCB, paying the £100 premium, and buying another car immediately.

Police said trucker did not know he had hit anything. Six months later police said they were taking no action.

T----- insure themselves. Our insurance company had to take them to court to get a settlement. Matter was finally settled two years after the accident. Wife was re-imbursed for her increased premiums, etc. She is now on her third SAAB.

It is well worth the few extra quid to add legal protection to your insurance. You don't want to be having to pay a solicitor out of your own pocket, when the other bloke gets it free.

602
userLeah
Posted: 9 March 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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I've been told on another website that my post is racist - my point has at least been taken seriously here! Driving is scarey enough - living where I do I've watched lorry drivers reading the daily paper or consulting maps; drinking coffee having undone the flask, tipped liquid into mug held on the steering wheel, done up flask, put flask down into the foot well , then drunk coffee/soup or whatever; seen mobiles and mugs used at the same time: hubby saw a man driving yesterday with his arm in plaster - plaster was maintained in a 45 deg angle so the elbow was resting on the window and he was driving with one hand! [Probably a dislocated shoulder........ ]

I'm sure not many people wish to cause an accident - but if each one of us reminded another driver not to use their mobile or drink drive, lives would be saved and accidents prevented.
userhowie
Posted: 9 March 2007 2:26 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Location: Dunnshargin


Hiya Lizzy, thought I recognised the writing style but just checked to make sure. I got rid of the tcz as it always reminded me of something you gargled with, but I bet your,s has more sinister implications. If so then please let me know by p.m. and your secret will be safe with me.
Off to sample the delights of shopping at Tesco,s now with no encounters with any of their delivery lorries I hope.
userMike Chapman
Posted: 9 March 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Leah - 2007-03-08 10:28 AM

My friend's car was crushed recently! He could see a supermarket lorry steaming up behind without any apparent recourse to getting out of the way heard a bang, felt his car pushed forwards with such force that it lifted up the back end of a 4 x 4 in front: fortunately she had put on her brakes 'cos she could see what was going to happen so didn't move too far forwards!

It was a T.... lorry driven by a Polish driver ON THE PHONE!!! The Police are not going to press for prosecution because the driver will hytail it out of the UK!

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought using a phone whilst driving a vehicle is a bookable offence Another reason to boycott T.... - do you want to know my other several

Fortunately my friend was only shaken but it was a horrific experience made worse by the lax application of UK Laws


Hello Leah,

I do not see that your posting is in any way racist the driver was of Polish nationality, a fact and he/she was using a mobile phone which is a bookable offence and now carries a £60 fine and 3 points on the licence. He/she should have been charged for the offence. What is racist about that?

Was the driver an agency driver because I am sure that if he was a Tesco employee he would have been held accountable? If he was employed by an agency then the agency would be liable for his actions.

What I do not understand is why you are calling for a boycott of Tesco because of a road accident even if it did involve one of their vehicles or do you have other issues with them?

Regards,

Mike.

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 March 2007 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Leah - 2007-03-08 10:28 AM My friend's car was crushed recently! He could see a supermarket lorry steaming up behind without any apparent recourse to getting out of the way heard a bang, felt his car pushed forwards with such force that it lifted up the back end of a 4 x 4 in front: fortunately she had put on her brakes 'cos she could see what was going to happen so didn't move too far forwards! It was a T.... lorry driven by a Polish driver ON THE PHONE!!! > The Police are not going to press for prosecution because the driver will hytail it out of the UK! Forgive me if I'm wrong but I thought using a phone whilst driving a vehicle is a bookable offence Another reason to boycott T.... - do you want to know my other several Fortunately my friend was only shaken but it was a horrific experience made worse by the lax application of UK Laws >

The actual nationality of the driver is surely irrelevant?  The fact the accident occurred while he was on the phone, presumably highly relevant.  I think the police have made a serious error in deciding not to prosecute the driver.  Neither he, not they, had any influence over the outcome, which could as easily have been fatal.

For what it is worth, I think your friend should take this further, and should seek to persuade the police to prosecute the driver.  There seems little point in making laws and then, because it is inconvenient, or because of the driver's nationality, deciding to ignore them.  The only reason I can see this as justified, is if the police could not prove the driver was using his 'phone at the time.  However, if they'd impounded the phone, as they should have, its own call log would have provided the necessary evidence, as would the phone company's call use log.

I do also just wonder if the police may have exceeded their authority in exercising discretion to this extent.  I thought the penalty for using a phone while driving, which is a fine, was mandatory, and not discretionary.  If so, having an accident while using a phone at the wheel of an HGV must, prima facie, at least be driving without due care and attention, even reckless driving (or whatever that charge now is).  This is not anti-Pole, it is not anti-Tesco, it is anti pratt at the wheel of an HGV!

userW3526602
Posted: 9 March 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Hi,

Surely failing to prosecute a driver because he is not British is racially discriminating against every Brit who they do prosecute?

As I understand it, if I am endorsed/disqualified for a motoring offence in EU, that penalty also has effect in the UK....or soon will have.

If the foreign driver "exits left", he can still be prosecuted and convicted in his absence. The penalty will stand until he returns to the UK, so it would be sensible for him not to return. Good!

PS. A non-licence holder (licence non-holder?) can be endorsed and/or disqualified. Details are held on a record specially generated at DVLD. Disqualification means that you mustn't drive, not that you mustn't apply for/hold a licence.

602
userDave Newell
Posted: 9 March 2007 5:51 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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So Leah, is your friend going to take this further? I certainly would. I'd want a written explanation from the area chief constable as to why this driver was let off after causing such a major accident. I'd then be on to my MP and my EMP.

D.
userSupertractorman
Posted: 9 March 2007 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Leah,

If you have no joy with the Police, may I suggest you contact the Traffic Commissioners, as they will most certainly take the Driver to task either a caution or even removing his licence or making him take another Driving Test. They may also call the truck owner as Operator Licence holder to task as they still have responsibilty for the truck and driver even if he is an agency employee.

David
userKeith T
Posted: 9 March 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Slightly strictly off topic, but I am absolutely amazed at the number of drivers we see still on their mobiles, despite the 'new' harder imposition (supposedly) of the fines etc.
We were on the motorway a couple of weeks ago, and watched in amazement as a woman (sorry all you good lady drivers, not being sexist!) came on at one of the junctions, may have been a service area, not sure now, one hand on wheel, the other with the mobile to her ear, and wandered all over the place.
We quickly overtook her whilst she was on the inside lane, ( we went right on to the third lane to give her a wide berth), and I noticed she then put the phone down, speeded up and went past us when we went back in to the nearside lane, picked up the phone and made another call, still wandering all over the place.
What a pity there were no Police vehicles along that stretch of the motorway.
Even driving locally on the small roads around here (Cornwall!) I cannot beleive how many drivers are still on their mobiles - madness, and the sooner they are put off the road the better, I think. There simply is no excuse.
userCliveH
Posted: 10 March 2007 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Leah - I am not surprised some numpty labelled you racist!! - There are a few people out there that can get very aggressive if you disagree with them.

Look at that idiot George Monbiot who wants anyone who asks questions about climate change to be labelled "Climate Change Deniers" and he then likens them to Holocaust Deniers!!!!

Truly bizarre!

But on the subject of Polish Drivers - a local firm in the west country has had to get rid of all its Polish Drivers because of the accident rate increase they were causing. The insurance company said that it would not continue with cover unless something was done.

So each driver in the company was assessed "silently" - i.e. an assessor went with the driver as a "new employee" without saying what the real reason was.

The report was damning.

Turning off the governor so that the lorry can exceed the 56mph limit down hills

Abuse of the Tachograph.

Intimidating driving.

Driving with no hands on the steering wheel whilst lighting a cigarette

Using a mobile phone whilst driving.



Bets thing to do these days is to have a digital camera in your car and be ready to record bad driving. Seeing one of its lorries being driven badly on websites would surely make T---- sit up and take notice.
userMike Chapman
Posted: 10 March 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Supertractorman - 2007-03-09 6:39 PM

Leah,

They may also call the truck owner as Operator Licence holder to task as they still have responsibilty for the truck and driver even if he is an agency employee.

David


Hello David,

Many logistics operations with their own vehicles also hire in or sub-contract work to other transport companies. I know for a fact that Tesco sub-contract work to at least two other well known transport companies as well as using agency drivers on their own vehicles when necessary. I am not sure whether Leahs friend was hit by a Tesco owned vehicle or a sub-contract vehicle with a Tesco trailer. As you may have gathered I do have an interest in this incident especially why Leah is calling for a Tesco Boycott.

Regards,

Mike
usermichele
Posted: 10 March 2007 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Do you work for Tesco logistics then Mike ?.
userLeah
Posted: 10 March 2007 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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I am not aware that I am boycotting Tesco on this issue however, their toilets in a few stores leave a lot to be desired , they have infiltrated land masses and built small stores then extended them to huge ones and yes, I have shopped in them so have to put my hand up to encouraging them ......... but since watching the TV programme a couple of weeks ago ......... and finding the ladies loos in dreadful condition I'm voting with my feet

It is rumoured that they are planning to move in with an 'express'-type shop which will kill off the local shop and PO ......... on the same site will be built new houses ???? it's being kept hush hush at present but I intend to go to the Parish Council meetings in future.

We watched a lady on a mobile in a Merc wandering over the dual carriageway this morning ......... wonder if it's the same one
userLeah
Posted: 10 March 2007 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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"I got rid of the tcz " non comprendey - sorry - I've got another handle 'cos I couldn't log in with my old name
userMike Chapman
Posted: 10 March 2007 3:48 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Hello Michele,

No, I am retired but I do know someone who works for Tesco Logistics and will be very interested in this incident.

Hello Leah,

So there are other issues which I assume you feel strongly about.

If it is not Tesco it will be Asda or Morrisons or Sainsburys or......you cannot blame the stores they are only meeting the public demand and competing against each other for the business even if their toilet facilities leave something to be desired.

Unfortunately retailing is very much price driven these days and small local shops will always find it difficult to compete on price against the multi-nationals. I hate to see the high streets losing business and becoming an area for just Charity Shops, Clubs and Pubs and Take-away outlets but that is the way that things have gone and probably will continue to go. Next phase will be the Indian and Chinese retailers such as Primark who will compete head on with the supermarket chains.

The Tesco Express Stores are connected to garages and not always Tesco garages, are you sure that it is not a high street Metro Store which incidentally will soon be offering Post Office facilities.

Regards,

Mike.
userflicka
Posted: 10 March 2007 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Surely there is also another point here. If the Driver is not to be prosecuted it will affect your friends Insurance No Claims position for the future, I would want my Isurers to ensure my no claims bonus would bremain intact & that they would be taking an action against the Driver under Civil Law .
Regarding the Police position surely they should be impose the fine and if it is not paid by the Driver then the Company empoying that individual should be liable.
When a vehicle registered to my Employers was caught by speed cameras I remember the police being most insistant that if wmy Empoyers could not identify the Driver, my Employers Company Secretary would be liable for both the Fine and Penalty Points on his licence.
Flicka
usermichele
Posted: 10 March 2007 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Lizzy HowardTCZ he got rid now just howie comprede?.
userSupertractorman
Posted: 10 March 2007 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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"When a vehicle registered to my Employers was caught by speed cameras I remember the police being most insistant that if wmy Empoyers could not identify the Driver, my Employers Company Secretary would be liable for both the Fine and Penalty Points on his licence."

Flicka,

You are quite correct with this statement. When I used to operate trucks I always photocopied any Agency staff tachos and work sheets in case of any comeback such as this.

Mike,

I understand your point re Sub Contractors, but I expect Tesco keep good records of their work.

David
userFrank Wilkinson
Posted: 10 March 2007 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


Supertractorman - 2007-03-10 6:13 PM "When a vehicle registered to my Employers was caught by speed cameras I remember the police being most insistant that if wmy Empoyers could not identify the Driver, my Employers Company Secretary would be liable for both the Fine and Penalty Points on his licence." Flicka, You are quite correct with this statement. When I used to operate trucks I always photocopied any Agency staff tachos and work sheets in case of any comeback such as this. Mike, I understand your point re Sub Contractors, but I expect Tesco keep good records of their work. David

I don't believe this and would dearly like to see relevent case law. The whole basis of British justice is that the person convicted must be identified.

I can understand that, if a company knowingly refuses to hand over information regarding its employees, it could well be prosecuted for that offence, but not for the original offence. And why the company secretary? The directors or partners are ultimately responsible for a company.

Take this example - a company van, that may have had one of several drivers on a given day, is caught in a speed trap. The following day the firm burns down with all its paperwork up in smoke. It cannot remember just who was driving the van.

What happens next? In my opinion, nothing. No identifiable person, no one to prosecute.



Edited by Frank Wilkinson 2007-03-10 6:23 PM
usermichele
Posted: 10 March 2007 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Frank Wilkinson - 2007-03-10 6:21 PM

What happens next? In my opinion, nothing. No identifiable person, no one to prosecute.

quite ecorrect Frank nothing should happen because when you get to court you are not refusing you are just stating that you have no knowlege of that day because all stuff is burnt.

Which of course is different from saying i,m crap at keeping on top of my paper work. you would not be held responsible or shouldn't be anyway ?
userFrank Wilkinson
Posted: 10 March 2007 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


michele - 2007-03-10 6:30 PM
Frank Wilkinson - 2007-03-10 6:21 PM What happens next? In my opinion, nothing. No identifiable person, no one to prosecute.

quite ecorrect Frank nothing should happen because when you get to court you are not refusing you are just stating that you have no knowlege of that day because all stuff is burnt. Which of course is different from saying i,m crap at keeping on top of my paper work. you would not be held responsible or shouldn't be anyway ?

Agreed. But my point is that a company that had not kept on top of its paperwork cannot be prosecuted for the original offence and to say that the company secretary will get the points on his licence is, in my opinion, completely wrong. They may well be prosecuted for witholding information relevent to a criminal offence, but that's it.

There was a case only recently, where an offence was committed by someone in a police car and the force in question couldn't, or wouldn't, release the driver's name. It caused a huge stink at the time but no one was prosecuted.

Isn't your husband a police officer Michele? Ask him what the law is. We'd all like to know I'm sure.

usermichele
Posted: 10 March 2007 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Location: Rapido ..ask him what size


Frank,
Apparently if the Vehicle is reg to a company or a private person they have an obligation under law to name the driver at the time of offence.

It is very unusal, but this is maybe the only occasion that the court will convict a person who they know may have not committed an offence (being the driving matter), but if the registered keeper or in a company either the transport or admin officer refuses or cannot give a good reason not to be able to supply the driver details then the court will convict them.

Poor record keeping will possibly default to the registered keeper. Records lost in a flood/fire etc would be accepted by the court. They would actually have to accept this as they must prove that the registered keeper is either protecting the actual driver or driving themselves.

Bottom line if it was that easy we would all lend them to a mate called frank and we don't know his last name at the pub.

hope this helps..........................Malcolm




Edited by michele 2007-03-10 6:58 PM
userSupertractorman
Posted: 10 March 2007 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 
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Frank,

The registered keeper of the vehicle as Michelle says is liable. It is so much easier to find the Driver of trucks due to Tachographs, and we had a harder job looking after the Mechanics van, as anybody used to jump in it, but with a little bit of research we normally found the culprit.

David
userFrank Wilkinson
Posted: 10 March 2007 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


michele - 2007-03-10 6:56 PM Frank, Apparently if the Vehicle is reg to a company or a private person they have an obligation under law to name the driver at the time of offence. It is very unusal, but this is maybe the only occasion that the court will convict a person who they know may have not committed an offence (being the driving matter), but if the registered keeper or in a company either the transport or admin officer refuses or cannot give a good reason not to be able to supply the driver details then the court will convict them. Poor record keeping will possibly default to the registered keeper. Records lost in a flood/fire etc would be accepted by the court. They would actually have to accept this as they must prove that the registered keeper is either protecting the actual driver or driving themselves. Bottom line if it was that easy we would all lend them to a mate called frank and we don't know his last name at the pub. hope this helps..........................Malcolm

Yes, but I revert back to my original theme, which you haven't made clear. Can they convict the company secretary of the original offence and endorse his licence if he clearly was not driving?

And what if the responsible person at the company does not hold a driver's licence? The whole point is, that you should not be able to convict someone of a driving offence if he was not driving. Convict him of not supplying the evidence and witholding the information yes, I'm all in favour of that, but to convict him for a crime he cannot possibly have commited flies against every tenet of the justice system and of his Human Rights.

I say again, I would like to see relevent case law because up to now I have heard nothing of this and as the responsible person in a couple of companies I have not been advised by my trade associations or anyone else that I could possibly lose my own licence because of offences committed by my employees.

I know that I have to keep records and supply information to the police but that is completely different.

usermichele
Posted: 10 March 2007 9:37 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Location: Rapido ..ask him what size


Sorry frank do not know the case law but as you appreciate there wouldn't be a single coviction in the country for any offence for example
fail to stop accident.
It seems unfair but if you wake in the morning to find that someone has driven into your camper van and luckily your neighbour has taken the registration . On finding out that the registred keeper is a company do we care who was driving it? ,all we want is someone to pay you wouldn't give a toss if the company secretary had a licenece or not all you would care about is your vehicle .
SOoo....... sorry don't know the case law but it defaults to the registered keeper it has got to be fair because they have given permission for the person to drive that van.

Ok your sec let's say does not hold a licenec the court might not impose penalty point's but they most probably would fine them, there must be a standard procedure elsewise everyone would reg there car's to there 86 year old mother who hasn't driven since 1968..... Ethel Smith here I come.
userDave Newell
Posted: 10 March 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Hi again Leah, you might have missed my question so I'll repeat it, is your friend going to take this further? I certainly would. I'd want a written explanation from the area chief constable as to why this driver was let off after causing such a major accident. I'd then be on to my MP and my EMP.

D.
-----
Don't bash the flash, use the cruise
usermichele
Posted: 10 March 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: BEWARE! supermarket lorries :-(((
 


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Location: Rapido ..ask him what size


Ok the whole judicial system is to keep 90% of the people , me and you in check.

So long as the average person has something to lose then the system works ,

Mr and Mrs average keep the show alive.

We insure ourselves, we obey the law in general and all goes well.

The other 10 % do exactly as they wish. They come to notice of the police and are then put before the judicial system , which does absolutely nothing!

They therefore continue as before , each time they come to notice they are given yet another chance.

This keeps solicitors in brand new top of the range BM's and merc's.

judges earn in excess of £100,000 a year......and insurance companies keep putting up the premiums..............

How ever if a burglar was arrested and then bailed from court, if he then committed another burglary whilst on bail, then the insurance company should pay out the house owner and then sue the court !

The government would then very quickly tell the courts to refuse bail.

This will never happen.

The driver should have been arrested to ensure he did not evade prosecution , he should have gone immediately to court. Even if he failed to return later, he would not get back in to the UK with out detection due to the new computerised passports, whereby hopefully he would be wanted on warrant for non appearance.

But once again, racial , domestic and street crime are the governments targets. They are not worried about traffic offences that do not earn revenue, such as gatso cameras

But dont worry I'm sure that the people at the home office that advise the government have our interests at heart, unfortunately they also would not recognise a burglar if he s**t in their back pocket, and as for travelling on the tube in the east end of london after dark they would piss their pants if asked to sort out the drunken yobs.

last person out the country please turn off the lights.........

PS sue/claim against tescos or whoever was operating the vehicle.

Edited by michele 2007-03-10 10:41 PM
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