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Brexit has changed everything, and nothing


CurtainRaiser

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"Brexit has changed everything about Britain’s relationship with the European Union, and also nothing. For anyone trying to do business across borders newly gummed with bureaucracy, the comparison is stark and painful. But in politics, an old pattern is playing out – a cycle of suspicion and self-sabotage that began long before the 2016 referendum.

 

It starts with the belief that Britain does not depend on its neighbours for trade or anything else. That leads to neglect of the diplomacy required to make the partnership work. Going against the grain of economics and geography escalates every negotiation into a test of national self-esteem. Each adjustment for reality is resented as a surrender of sovereignty.

 

Euroscepticism is a machine for generating perpetual grievance. It works by making Brussels the enemy, spoiling relations and serving up the soured mood to a domestic audience as proof that the other side does not want to be friends.

 

Brexit has dismantled the institutional platform on which that drama used to be played, but it does not change the economic and strategic dynamics. The UK still needs things from Brussels, but it has lost the leverage it had from a seat at the EU summit table. This makes it harder for Boris Johnson to play the old double game of public belligerence and private compromise. (On that score, EU membership was the way previous prime ministers used to have their cake and eat it.)

 

Johnson has no interest in the practical side of European diplomacy. His 2019 promise to “get Brexit done” expressed a personal preference for changing the subject of British politics – a preference that chimed with the enervated public mood. Since Johnson only applies his brain to things when he can no longer hide from them, not talking about UK-EU relations allows him also to stop thinking about them.

 

That task has been outsourced to David Frost – formerly chief Brexit negotiator, now UK chair of the partnership council that oversees implementation of the EU deal. Frost was given a peerage last year, and his new role comes with a seat at cabinet. His rapid elevation was propelled by dogmatic Euroscepticism and personal devotion to the prime minister. He is a true believer in the cult of sovereignty. He was converted to the faith when his career in the Foreign Office stalled, then made zealous by the pursuit of an alternative career clinging to Johnson’s coattails. Nowhere does his record speak of subtle or creative diplomacy.

 

Frost’s appointment is not a malicious provocation, but a typical act of Johnsonian negligence. The prime minister likes to delegate the many aspects of leadership that bore him, but he trusts very few people (because he presumes his own tendency for deceit and betrayal is the norm). He needed someone, like Frost, who will obediently try to mop up the grief spilling out of his leaky, rickety EU deal.

 

Tension is already high over the Northern Ireland protocol, which creates a customs border in the Irish Sea. The mere existence of that trade barrier has infuriated unionists even before the full cost is felt. A “grace period”, waiving some checks, expires at the end of March. The UK has demanded an extension on terms that amount to major renegotiation. The European commission responds that Britain must honour the treaty it signed. And so the Brexit that was “done” turns out not to be done.

 

Were it not for the pandemic, loose ends and lost jobs would be making more headlines. Whether they would also be changing public opinion is a different question. Some enthusiasm is surely dropping into the chasm between Brexit as liberation theology and its real-world incarnation as rotting fish undelivered to a Calais market. But British political culture contains deep reserves of stoical resignation to adversity (especially other people’s adversity). There is no simple road back, no better deal on the table, and it is easy for ministers to spin the pain mandated by their deal as aggression by vengeful Europeans.

 

Leavers will be attracted to that story because it spares them the discomfort of admitting that they voted for a con, and then made a prime minister of the con artist. Keir Starmer will not fight on that terrain since doing so gets him no affection in constituencies that were lost by Labour in 2019. Thus (in England, at least) the folly of Brexit is being buried for excavation some time in the future, perhaps by a different political generation.

 

It might happen sooner, but I suspect any shift in opinion on the EU will come only as a consequence of some wider collapse in Johnson’s personal standing. He is the denial that people elected. For many voters, disillusionment with Brexit is downstream of disappointment with the whole “Boris” shtick in the flow of political events.

 

I thought Brexit would be hard for small businesses like mine – but not this hard | Sarah McCartney

Meanwhile, there will be endless negotiations, largely unreported, except when they escalate into rows. At which point the rusty old template will be applied: plucky Britain standing up to bullying Brussels. It is the story the Eurosceptics used to tell when the UK was an EU member, but more potent because the 27-against-one dynamic that was a paranoid myth has become a fact. Over time, that dynamic will make it ever harder for the opposition to express a pro-European position without inviting the charge of siding with an enemy.

 

It is frustrating for remainers who still crave a moment of vindication, when the fraud is proved beyond doubt and the tide of opinion turns. But for that to happen, Brexit would have to be measured in terms of trade and diplomacy. Those aren’t the leavers’ metrics. They long ago swapped economic argument for culture war bluster.

 

There is no defence of Johnson’s deal if the ambition was serious advancement of the national interest. But there is another test. It is the one that matters most to the architects of Brexit, although they never admit it, even to themselves.

 

For the true believers, a good Brexit is one that keeps the grievance alive; that makes foreigners the scapegoat for bad government; that continues to indulge the twin national myths of victimhood and heroic defiance. Measured for that purpose, Johnson’s pointless Brexit is perfect."

 

Rafael Behr is a Guardian columnist

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CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-24 11:17 AM

"....Euroscepticism is a machine for generating perpetual grievance. It works by making Brussels the enemy, spoiling relations and serving up the soured mood to a domestic audience as proof that the other side does not want to be friends.........//.......

 

....For the true believers, a good Brexit is one that keeps the grievance alive; that makes foreigners the scapegoat for bad government; that continues to indulge the twin national myths of victimhood and heroic defiance. Measured for that purpose, Johnson’s pointless Brexit is perfect."

 

As I've said several times over the years, for some (many?) the fact that the UK was sitting around a table with Johnnie Foreigner, instead of at the head of it was never ever going to sit well (especially when one of those 'Foreigners "..bombed 'r chippy..!" )

 

I think this all goes far beyond "Brexit" though?..there is a deep vein of general bitterness, resentment and envy, running through some sections of society.

Just look at this, admittedly very small, forum as a snapshot..

Prior to Brexit even being thought of,pretty much the same people who have spent years constantly slagging off the eu, would have instead been spending their days routinely slagging off the likes of- "the politcial elite", the "Westminster bubble", "experts", Junior Doctors, teachers, public sector workers(with pensions), benefit claimants, single mothers, immigrants..etc etc

(basically any group that either a) They didn't think included them? or b) They thought received "more" than they did?)

 

( the irony is, as we see from this forum, is that in some cases, these same people were in fact within one or more of the group(s) they were rounding on anyway.. :-S ).

 

 

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pepe63 - 2021-02-24 12:19 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-24 11:17 AM

"....Euroscepticism is a machine for generating perpetual grievance. It works by making Brussels the enemy, spoiling relations and serving up the soured mood to a domestic audience as proof that the other side does not want to be friends.........//.......

 

....For the true believers, a good Brexit is one that keeps the grievance alive; that makes foreigners the scapegoat for bad government; that continues to indulge the twin national myths of victimhood and heroic defiance. Measured for that purpose, Johnson’s pointless Brexit is perfect."

 

As I've said several times over the years, for some (many?) the fact that the UK was sitting around a table with Johnnie Foreigner, instead of at the head of it was never ever going to sit well (especially when one of those 'Foreigners "..bombed 'r chippy..!" )

 

I think this all goes far beyond "Brexit" though?..there is a deep vein of general bitterness, resentment and envy, running through some sections of society.

Just look at this, admittedly very small, forum as a snapshot..

Prior to Brexit even being thought of,pretty much the same people who have spent years constantly slagging off the eu, would have instead been spending their days routinely slagging off the likes of- "the politcial elite", the "Westminster bubble", "experts", Junior Doctors, teachers, public sector workers(with pensions), benefit claimants, single mothers, immigrants..etc etc

(basically any group that either a) They didn't think included them? or b) They thought received "more" than they did?)

 

( the irony is, as we see from this forum, is that in some cases, these same people were in fact within one or more of the group(s) they were rounding on anyway.. :-S ).

Good summary!

 

I will never get my head round the complete hypocrisy of those who railed against, and continue to denigrate, everything EU......yet scurry off each year to spend half the year sitting IN an EU country benefitting from the EU.

 

Then there are the 'expats'.....they're immigrants really but don't like that word as that's reserved for those errrm foreign folk and "British are never foreigners no matter what country we are in". Yes that was actually quoted by one of these bigots. *-)

 

Watching some of British immigrants being interviewed, I remember listening to one chap who had lived in Spain for ten years moaning about whenever he visited his daughter in UK "walking around her town all you hear is foreign voices...". The irony of his bigotry was totally lost on him. They live in their British Empire bubble.

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jumpstart - 2021-02-24 1:56 PM

There is a different between the countries that make up europe and the useless pratts in Brussels.

Is it not so that EU citizens complain about Brussels.

Two questions then.

1 Who appoints the "useless prats" in Brussels (assuming you are referring to the Commissioners)?

2 Do you think every member of the UK Civil Service (or parliament) is a useful prat?

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pelmetman - 2021-02-24 2:50 PM

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-24 11:17 AM

Rafael Behr is a Guardian columnist

Says everything (lol) (lol) (lol) ..........

To you, sadly, almost certainly! :-D

Doesn't necessarily make what he says wrong, though, does it?

Are you really so narrow minded that you only believe what right wingers say? If so, how would you ever know if the political right was making mistakes? Are you really so naïve as to believe any political grouping will publicly admit its own mistakes? Our whole political system relies on the existence of an opposite point of view to sharpen the intellects of the governing party. How else could it work?

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Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 11:03 AM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-24 1:56 PM

There is a different between the countries that make up europe and the useless pratts in Brussels.

Is it not so that EU citizens complain about Brussels.

Two questions then.

1 Who appoints the "useless prats" in Brussels (assuming you are referring to the Commissioners)?

2 Do you think every member of the UK Civil Service (or parliament) is a useful prat?

 

1. Doesn't prevent them from being useless pratts

2.No and yes.

 

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Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 11:13 AM

 

pelmetman - 2021-02-24 2:50 PM

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-24 11:17 AM

Rafael Behr is a Guardian columnist

Says everything (lol) (lol) (lol) ..........

To you, sadly, almost certainly! :-D

Doesn't necessarily make what he says wrong, though, does it?

Are you really so narrow minded that you only believe what right wingers say? If so, how would you ever know if the political right was making mistakes? Are you really so naïve as to believe any political grouping will publicly admit its own mistakes? Our whole political system relies on the existence of an opposite point of view to sharpen the intellects of the governing party. How else could it work?

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

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jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

 

Bermann described Brexit as a triumph of emotion over reason, won by a campaign full of lies in which negative attitudes to migration were exploited by figures such as Johnson and Michael Gove.

 

Ambassador to the UK from 2014 to 2017, Bermann is one of the most senior diplomats in the French diplomatic service to attack the UK government's handling of the coronavirus pandemic, which she said was one of the worst in the world, alongside that of Donald Trump and Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil.

 

She predicted Johnson would seek to use Covid to mask the true economic cost of Brexit on the UK economy.

 

Johnson, she says, comes from an Eton and Oxford University class that believes they are entitled to use language to provoke. Describing him as intelligent and charming, he uses "lies to embellish reality, as a game and as an instrument of power. The ends justify the means. He has no rules”.

 

In her book Goodbye Britannia, Bermann described the psyche that led to Brexit. She describes "the partisans of Brexit as reciting a history in which the UK is never defeated, never invaded". She suggests a country that considers it singlehandedly won the second world war, liberating the continent and deserving of gratitude.

 

Referencing the more than 22 million Russians who died in the second world war she says "this does not disturb the discourse of the Brexiters who peddle the myth that the UK liberated Europe alone and needs no one".

 

She said France had a debt of gratitude to the British but that it was "right to remember that they were not alone and you cannot live with a history that stopped in June 1944".

 

She also claimed David Cameron did not take the threat of losing the Brexit referendum seriously and described the defeat as the first signs of populism taking hold of a government in Europe.

 

In the book, she asks: "How this country whose influence had been decisive in Brussels, which insolently rolled out the red carpet for French entrepreneurs and which Xi Jinping had elected in October 2015 as the gateway to Europe, at the dawn of a golden period, how has it undertaken to scuttle itself?"

 

She predicted: "Boris Johnson’s temptation will be to hide the bill for Brexit under the Covid carpet, valued at more than £200bn for 2020, almost as much as the United Kingdom’s total contribution to the European Union since its accession in 1973, which was £215bn.”

 

She said it was inevitable that the UK will struggle now to find influence outside the EU, and has a Scottish independence referendum hanging over its head.

 

She said she believed the EU would feel obliged to open talks with Scotland in the event of a referendum vote to leave the UK, but that is not the official EU position, partly due to pressure from Spain. Madrid fears the knock-on impact among Catalan separatists if an independent Scotland was allowed to join the EU.""

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jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 11:03 AM

jumpstart - 2021-02-24 1:56 PM

There is a different between the countries that make up europe and the useless pratts in Brussels.

Is it not so that EU citizens complain about Brussels.

Two questions then.

1 Who appoints the "useless prats" in Brussels (assuming you are referring to the Commissioners)?

2 Do you think every member of the UK Civil Service (or parliament) is a useful prat?

1. Doesn't prevent them from being useless pratts

2.No and yes.

1 But all of them, without exception?

2 So all Civil Servants are useless prats, and all politicians useful prats? I suppose that reveals a certain bias on the one hand, and a degree of balance on the other. :-D

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CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

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Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 12:48 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 11:03 AM

jumpstart - 2021-02-24 1:56 PM

There is a different between the countries that make up europe and the useless pratts in Brussels.

Is it not so that EU citizens complain about Brussels.

Two questions then.

1 Who appoints the "useless prats" in Brussels (assuming you are referring to the Commissioners)?

2 Do you think every member of the UK Civil Service (or parliament) is a useful prat?

1. Doesn't prevent them from being useless pratts

2.No and yes.

1 But all of them, without exception?

2 So all Civil Servants are useless prats, and all politicians useful prats? I suppose that reveals a certain bias on the one hand, and a degree of balance on the other. :-D

I think regards 2) he's saying 'no not every member, but yes they're useless prats'. If you can make any sense from that! :-S

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Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:41 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

 

Some of it a dead pulse. Hatred of Germany ...really , don't believe it.

And the French don't?

The bit about Boris, we know that.

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Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 12:48 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 11:03 AM

jumpstart - 2021-02-24 1:56 PM

There is a different between the countries that make up europe and the useless pratts in Brussels.

Is it not so that EU citizens complain about Brussels.

Two questions then.

1 Who appoints the "useless prats" in Brussels (assuming you are referring to the Commissioners)?

2 Do you think every member of the UK Civil Service (or parliament) is a useful prat?

1. Doesn't prevent them from being useless pratts

2.No and yes.

1 But all of them, without exception?

2 So all Civil Servants are useless prats, and all politicians useful prats? I suppose that reveals a certain bias on the one hand, and a degree of balance on the other. :-D

I think regards 2) he's saying 'no not every member, but yes they're useless prats'. If you can make any sense from that! :-S

 

Not every member .....yes some are useful prats.

 

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jumpstart - 2021-02-25 4:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:41 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

 

Some of it a dead pulse. Hatred of Germany ...really , don't believe it.

And the French don't?

The bit about Boris, we know that.

She's educated and well traveled and I found her views observed and pertinent. Just because she isn't dancing to the Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong. As you're beginning to discover for yourselves but understandably find it difficult to admit, Brexit has already done catastrophic damage to this country.

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jumpstart - 2021-02-25 4:39 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 12:48 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2021-02-25 11:03 AM

jumpstart - 2021-02-24 1:56 PM

There is a different between the countries that make up europe and the useless pratts in Brussels.

Is it not so that EU citizens complain about Brussels.

Two questions then.

1 Who appoints the "useless prats" in Brussels (assuming you are referring to the Commissioners)?

2 Do you think every member of the UK Civil Service (or parliament) is a useful prat?

1. Doesn't prevent them from being useless pratts

2.No and yes.

1 But all of them, without exception?

2 So all Civil Servants are useless prats, and all politicians useful prats? I suppose that reveals a certain bias on the one hand, and a degree of balance on the other. :-D

I think regards 2) he's saying 'no not every member, but yes they're useless prats'. If you can make any sense from that! :-S

 

Not every member .....yes some are useful prats.

Who....and why are they 'prats'? I'm assuming this is nothing other than your personal opinion?

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Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 5:14 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 4:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:41 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

 

Some of it a dead pulse. Hatred of Germany ...really , don't believe it.

And the French don't?

The bit about Boris, we know that.

She's educated and well traveled and I found her views observed and pertinent. Just because she isn't dancing to the Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong. As you're beginning to discover for yourselves but understandably find it difficult to admit, Brexit has already done catastrophic damage to this country.

 

And some of it just plain wrong in my opinion. I’m also educated ,well travelled and I think it very early days to come to a conclusion yet.

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jumpstart - 2021-02-25 5:39 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 5:14 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 4:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:41 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

 

Some of it a dead pulse. Hatred of Germany ...really , don't believe it.

And the French don't?

The bit about Boris, we know that.

She's educated and well traveled and I found her views observed and pertinent. Just because she isn't dancing to the Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong. As you're beginning to discover for yourselves but understandably find it difficult to admit, Brexit has already done catastrophic damage to this country.

 

And some of it just plain wrong in my opinion. I’m also educated ,well travelled and I think it very early days to come to a conclusion yet.

Can you be a bit more specific? As I said just because she isn't dancing to your Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong.

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Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 8:12 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 5:39 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 5:14 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 4:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:41 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

 

Some of it a dead pulse. Hatred of Germany ...really , don't believe it.

And the French don't?

The bit about Boris, we know that.

She's educated and well traveled and I found her views observed and pertinent. Just because she isn't dancing to the Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong. As you're beginning to discover for yourselves but understandably find it difficult to admit, Brexit has already done catastrophic damage to this country.

 

And some of it just plain wrong in my opinion. I’m also educated ,well travelled and I think it very early days to come to a conclusion yet.

Can you be a bit more specific? As I said just because she isn't dancing to your Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong.

 

What the hell would she know about the British public. The nearest she has been to any is when she would have flown over us between Paris and London.Its complete nonsense ,bet she's never been in a pub in Fulham , all she's ever met is other ambassadors and prats in London.

What song did you have in mind.

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jumpstart - 2021-02-25 9:32 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 8:12 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 5:39 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 5:14 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 4:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:41 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

 

Some of it a dead pulse. Hatred of Germany ...really , don't believe it.

And the French don't?

The bit about Boris, we know that.

She's educated and well traveled and I found her views observed and pertinent. Just because she isn't dancing to the Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong. As you're beginning to discover for yourselves but understandably find it difficult to admit, Brexit has already done catastrophic damage to this country.

 

And some of it just plain wrong in my opinion. I’m also educated ,well travelled and I think it very early days to come to a conclusion yet.

Can you be a bit more specific? As I said just because she isn't dancing to your Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong.

 

What the hell would she know about the British public. The nearest she has been to any is when she would have flown over us between Paris and London.Its complete nonsense ,bet she's never been in a pub in Fulham , all she's ever met is other ambassadors and prats in London. What song did you have in mind.

That's exactly the backward bigoted view i'd expect from Pelmet types and thought you could stand above that level.

 

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Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 10:06 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 9:32 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 8:12 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 5:39 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 5:14 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 4:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2021-02-25 1:41 PM

 

CurtainRaiser - 2021-02-25 12:46 PM

 

jumpstart - 2021-02-25 12:18 PM

 

 

Interesting reading Sylvie Bermann thoughts about the brexit vote whilst French ambassador. She said had they known that the vote was likely to go against the EU they would have given more to Cameron when he came to see them prior to the vote . Got that wrong didn't they.

 

She said some other interesting stuff too, I'm surprised you missed it out?!:

 

"Boris Johnson is "an unrepentant and inveterate liar" who is not subject to the same rules as others, a former French diplomat to the UK has said in her new book.

 

Sylvie Bermann, the French ambassador to the UK during the Brexit vote, also claimed Brexiteers were consumed with a hatred for Germany and were gripped by a myth that they liberated Europe on their down during World War II.

Well.........she's certainly got her finger on the pulse hasn't she?!!

 

Some of it a dead pulse. Hatred of Germany ...really , don't believe it.

And the French don't?

The bit about Boris, we know that.

She's educated and well traveled and I found her views observed and pertinent. Just because she isn't dancing to the Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong. As you're beginning to discover for yourselves but understandably find it difficult to admit, Brexit has already done catastrophic damage to this country.

 

And some of it just plain wrong in my opinion. I’m also educated ,well travelled and I think it very early days to come to a conclusion yet.

Can you be a bit more specific? As I said just because she isn't dancing to your Brexit tune doesn't make her wrong.

 

What the hell would she know about the British public. The nearest she has been to any is when she would have flown over us between Paris and London.Its complete nonsense ,bet she's never been in a pub in Fulham , all she's ever met is other ambassadors and prats in London. What song did you have in mind.

That's exactly the backward bigoted view i'd expect from Pelmet types and thought you could stand above that level.

 

So do you hate Germans ? Does anyone on here hate Germans. We have more in common and closer ties in the past with Germany. Infact France has historically been our enemy.

Any countries out there that might hate Germany.. ...well there's Poland and Greece, the Nethetlands Norway in fact probably most of europe more than the UK. So its rubbish...and just the sort of think you would like to believe.

 

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