Ford - 'no deal' would cost $1 billion

[Bulletguy]

 

Ford Motor Co (F.N) said on Thursday it faces a bill of up to $1 billion (£767 million) if Britain leaves the European Union without a deal, comprising World Trade Organization tariffs and the impact of a weaker pound.

 

Ford employs 13,000 in UK.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ford/no-deal-brexit-would-cost-ford-up-to-1-billion-source-idUSKCN1PI1VD

[Tracker]

Ford have been reducing their UK business for years and have not made cars here for years so it makes perfect sense for them to make the rest of all vehicles closer to their assembly plants so no great surprise there then.

 

Ford have also entered a collaboration agreement with VW for new car development so why would anyone be surprised that Ford take the easy way out and blame Brexit as a cynical but typical marketing excuse.

[Bulletguy]

 

Except for the thousands employed building the engines and boxes at Dagenham, Bridgend and Halewood, not to mention their R&D place in Essex which alone employs 3,000. As with Airbus these jobs are now all at risk and believing it's "nothing to do with Brexit" simply won't wash any longer Richard because this is happening as a direct result of it.

 

It's also worth remembering when big companies like this pull out, a whole multitude of other small businesses are affected.....everything from local sandwich bars employees spent their money in to businesses in the supply-chain.

 

This is not "project fear"......it's Project Reality now.

[Tracker]

Not unexpectedly you are accepting Ford's version of blame it on Brexit wheras in the real world Ford has been exiting the UK for years and like you is keen to jump on any passing negative bandwagon, but then just like the little boy who cried wolf once too often it is no less than we expect from you.

 

That you choose to obfuscate the issue by having a go at me about jobs etc is also unsurprising as you try all means to blame Brexit for everyting and if the sun does not rise tomorrow I guess that too will be the fault of HMG whilst the EU is totally blamefree.

 

No wonder they call you Bullshout - thats all you do - shout bull.

[Bulletguy]

 

No i'm seeing the reality of Brexit damage Richard, not ignoring and blame shifting to the EU which is every Brexiters default standard....."it's not us, not our fault, it's them" etc. I see it in here and every other forum. Brexiters have got to stop passing the buck now and own their own sh1t and why you feel that's "having a go at you", i don't know as you've never openly declared which way you voted though your postings suggest you went Brexit. Why so coy? Far from obfuscation it's patently clear to many the huge damaging impact Brexit has brought and it's only going to get a lot lot worse.

 

It may come as a surprise to you but the major internationals were not the only ones threatening to pull out of UK. Arch pro-Brexiteer Dyson said he would eight years ago if UK didn't join the euro. Well now he has shipped out and it's more than just extraordinary timing he announced build of his electric car just days after SN signed FTA's with the EU. If he was so sure of "Brexit being good for UK".......how come he left to go to a country with fta's which Brexit will chuck down the pan? Seems Brexit and possible loss of fta's was enough for Dyson to clear off.

 

The EU didn't vote for this....Brexiters did. As Remain voters we knew what we'd got already, but Brexiters had zero plans and just a wackadoodle dream of their parallel universe, money trees and promises of unicorns.

 

 

[Barryd999]

Even the Brexiteer economists such and Patrick Minford seem to think the loss of our car industry and pretty much all our manufacturing is acceptable collateral damage to achieve Brexit. I think there is no question that this is going to happen in a no deal scenario.

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2019-01-25 10:53 PM

 

Even the Brexiteer economists such and Patrick Minford seem to think the loss of our car industry and pretty much all our manufacturing is acceptable collateral damage to achieve Brexit. I think there is no question that this is going to happen in a no deal scenario.

Loss of any industry to 'achieve Brexit' is not acceptable at all and nobody, irrespective of which way they voted or not, should even be thinking it is. Quite why anyone is prepared to inflict such wreckless irreparable damage is beyond me. It's an utterly despicable attitude and selfish to the core.

 

Unipart CEO, John Neill said, International Trade Secretary Liam Fox has "extremely low credibility" and does not understand the dangers of a "no-deal" Brexit. Mr Neil added he was "very concerned that people who are saying that a no-deal Brexit is a viable option have not taken the time to understand the way that would affect the economy, and how it would hurt people's jobs".

 

https://news.sky.com/story/liam-fox-has-extremely-low-credibility-says-unipart-boss-11617518

[Barryd999]

The fact that there are politicians still advocating "No Deal" is a disgrace really. Actually they are not only advocating it they are positively pressing for it. You have to go back to 2016 and remember how all of them said no deal would never happen, nobody wants or voted for no deal etc. just to realise what a web of deceit they have sown. Negotiations are over as far as May's deal are concerned so it should be removed as an option. The only negotiating that can be done now is further alignment with the EU if May drops some of her red lines anyway. If they were so keen on No deal then they should have fessed up right from the start that this is what they meant by Brexit, not promising the people that we could have all the benefits and still leave. They conned their way through the 2016 vote and they are still doing it now.

[Geeco]

As a mater of interest in the last two years GM (Holden), Toyota and Ford have closed their car manufacturing plants in AU. They have relocated manufacturing to cheap labour countries or simply commenced importing "world" design cars to sell here without the influence of a Brexit type event. International companies are experts at deflecting criticism of their actions from the real reason - generally profit. Cheers,

[Guest pelmetman]

Geeco - 2019-01-26 4:55 AM

 

As a mater of interest in the last two years GM (Holden), Toyota and Ford have closed their car manufacturing plants in AU. They have relocated manufacturing to cheap labour countries or simply commenced importing "world" design cars to sell here without the influence of a Brexit type event. International companies are experts at deflecting criticism of their actions from the real reason - generally profit. Cheers,

 

You're wasting your time Gary if you think Remoaners are capable of accepting reality (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2019-01-26 12:15 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2019-01-25 10:53 PM

 

Even the Brexiteer economists such and Patrick Minford seem to think the loss of our car industry and pretty much all our manufacturing is acceptable collateral damage to achieve Brexit. I think there is no question that this is going to happen in a no deal scenario.

Loss of any industry to 'achieve Brexit' is not acceptable at all and nobody, irrespective of which way they voted or not, should even be thinking it is. Quite why anyone is prepared to inflict such wreckless irreparable damage is beyond me. It's an utterly despicable attitude and selfish to the core.

 

Unipart CEO, John Neill said, International Trade Secretary Liam Fox has "extremely low credibility" and does not understand the dangers of a "no-deal" Brexit. Mr Neil added he was "very concerned that people who are saying that a no-deal Brexit is a viable option have not taken the time to understand the way that would affect the economy, and how it would hurt people's jobs".

 

https://news.sky.com/story/liam-fox-has-extremely-low-credibility-says-unipart-boss-11617518

 

So why did Ford & Toyota close their factories in Australia? >:-) ...........

 

 

[derek pringle]

Hi,

It seems Companies are starting to use the present turmoil we are in politically to 'bury the bad news' under the flag of 'no deal'. Haven't heard any Large employers coming out in favour of leave,let alone leave with 'no deal'

cheers

derek

[Guest pelmetman]

derek pringle - 2019-01-26 9:21 AM

 

Hi,

It seems Companies are starting to use the present turmoil we are in politically to 'bury the bad news' under the flag of 'no deal'. Haven't heard any Large employers coming out in favour of leave,let alone leave with 'no deal'

cheers

derek

 

JCB......Weatherspoons.......Dixons ........Dysons........Tate & Lyle.......Don't seem bothered by a no deal ;-) ........

 

 

[Tracker]

pelmetman - 2019-01-26 9:10 AM

 

So why did Ford & Toyota close their factories in Australia? >:-) ...........

 

 

Gosh Dave that's an easy one - 'cos they can make 'em cheaper elsewhere - simples.

 

Like Ford, Toyota now make vehicles in Turkey and I suspect that the incentives given are all part of the Turkish plan to get into the EU one way or another?

 

Jus like Alice in EU Land, nothing is ever quite what it seems to the easily led!

[Bulletguy]

Geeco - 2019-01-26 4:55 AM

 

As a mater of interest in the last two years GM (Holden), Toyota and Ford have closed their car manufacturing plants in AU. They have relocated manufacturing to cheap labour countries or simply commenced importing "world" design cars to sell here without the influence of a Brexit type event. International companies are experts at deflecting criticism of their actions from the real reason - generally profit. Cheers,

Gary...GM doesn't own Ford and both GM and Ford (FMC) are separate entities; https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-who-owns-which-car-brands/

 

Regards Ford (FMC), their Cologne production plant in Germany employs over 28,000 and the largest in Europe. Ford-Werke GmbH is a subsidiary of Ford (Europe) and FMC and German labour is not best known for it's 'cheap' labour, but better known for it's efficiency and engineering expertise.

 

Certainly large production companies (not just automotive), can and have in the past opened up production manufacturing facilities where labour is cheap, just as British businessman James Dyson did in Malaysia though that was years back when he'd warned he would pull out of UK if it didn't join the euro (SM).

 

However, the current relocations of large businesses are not with 'cheap labour' uppermost in mind as all are relocating to EU countries where they will retain FTA's within their largest market, Europe, and that's come about as a direct result of Brexit. Prior to that they were perfectly content with manufacturing here in UK. Breiteers are naturally in a state of denial over this and persist with blame shifting with none able to explain why, if Brexit Britain has such a promising future, not one European based company has relocated to UK as a direct result of Brexit. I've never been able to get an answer to that question from any Brexiteer. All the "traffic" is moving one way.....and that's out of UK.

 

Regarding Dyson, he's building an all electric car and announced plans to build it in Singapore......just days after Singapore had signed FTA's with the EU. That gives him the access he wants which Brexit Britain wants to chuck down the pan. Dyson has openly said his decision was based on supply chains, access to markets and the availability of expertise, which offset the cost factor. Interestingly you won't see any Brexiteer condemning Dysons actions because pre-referendum he came out as a supporter of Brexit. Obviously he's not such a "Brexity" chap after all eh? But he's not alone.

 

Also worth bearing in mind that Singapore average salaries are among the highest in the world, after all they have highly qualified engineers at the top of their game so they won't come cheap, plus business land in SN is extremely expensive and tightly regulated.

[Tracker]

It's not all about labour costs in isolation, it is also about union power and the UK record for disruption and probably of greater significance worker attitudes and legendary lack of commitment.

 

I recall a business seminar some 35 years ago where one of the speakers said - 'as a nation we are paying ourselves too much and not working hard enough for it and if it continues will will become less competitive on the world stage'.

 

How right he was.

 

I can't speak for Oz, but Gary might?

[Brian Kirby]

Multi-national companies locate their factories where they think they will generate the best profits. It is a combination of land cost, government inducements, reliable energy supplies, proximity to ports or major transport links (for cars usually rail), political stability, tax structures, local education levels, labour costs, etc. etc. The factory, together with the production machinery, is a huge investment, so needs to be a sound base for a number of years, at least until the investment is amortised, but ideally for years after that point, which is when it becomes really profitable.

 

When the models in production are due for replacement, and the existing plant due a major re-fit, one avenue will be to look at the economics of building a new plant at a new, more favourable, location.

 

That will presumably be the process that Ford have followed, and it is quite possible that if they see Brexit as an unquantifiable future hazard to the economics of UK production, they will look, and go, elsewhere. So will other major manufacturers. The UK is an expensive country in which to base, and run, any business. We also have a rather volatile currency. We have to have other compensatory advantages to secure and maintain those plants. If we don't, they will all gradually move away.

 

Why do people think that even companies based and originating in UK have "offshored" their production facilities, some moving their headquarters elsewhere, others sub-contracting their production to foreign companies, yet others putting themselves up for sale to the highest bidders? This has been going on for years, and over time has hollowed out our manufacturing base. I bought a refurb kit for my old B&D Workmate last Thursday, and when opening the replacement parts packages I noticed the label said made in...…………………...

you guessed, China!

 

Our problem is that we have not replaced the jobs that those employed in these factories used to do. We spawn new, high tech, companies quite successfully, but they don't employ the same kinds of people. The people still exist, but there aren't the jobs for them or their skills.

 

Not strictly relevant to Brexit, but no-one seems to have employment for those who have manual, rather than intellectual, skills, at the forefront of their thinking. Call centres and Amazon warehouses on zero hours contracts are no substitute for those people - which spells an awful lot of dissatisfied, unhappy people doing jobs they despise and resent while robots, or far away foreign workers, do the work they used to do. We need a range of new employment opportunities for people who have that skillset. Building more homes could absorb some, but more, skilled, manual jobs that are not suited to mechanisation or robotisation seem to me to be needed.

 

The agricultural revolution de-populated the land, but fortunately coincided with the beginnings of the industrial revolution, so that the land workers could ('though not easily) move to industrial work. Now we need similar work for similar people as we de-industrialise and robotise, and I can't yet see where that is. Where it isn't, is in those areas that have already lost their industry and are still waiting for the new employment opportunities they hope will arrive. In that sense it is relevant to Brexit, as the main impetus for leave seems to have been in those same areas. The problem then is that leaving the EU won't solve their problem, and when that becomes clear they will be even more unhappy and resentful.

[teflon2]

Bulletguy - 2019-01-25 8:15 PM

 

 

No i'm seeing the reality of Brexit damage Richard, not ignoring and blame shifting to the EU which is every Brexiters default standard....."it's not us, not our fault, it's them" etc. I see it in here and every other forum. Brexiters have got to stop passing the buck now and own their own sh1t and why you feel that's "having a go at you", i don't know as you've never openly declared which way you voted though your postings suggest you went Brexit. Why so coy? Far from obfuscation it's patently clear to many the huge damaging impact Brexit has brought and it's only going to get a lot lot worse.

 

It may come as a surprise to you but the major internationals were not the only ones threatening to pull out of UK. Arch pro-Brexiteer Dyson said he would eight years ago if UK didn't join the euro. Well now he has shipped out and it's more than just extraordinary timing he announced build of his electric car just days after SN signed FTA's with the EU. If he was so sure of "Brexit being good for UK".......how come he left to go to a country with fta's which Brexit will chuck down the pan? Seems Brexit and possible loss of fta's was enough for Dyson to clear off.

 

The EU didn't vote for this....Brexiters did. As Remain voters we knew what we'd got already, but Brexiters had zero plans and just a wackadoodle dream of their parallel universe, money trees and promises of unicorns.

 

 

 

If the EU is so good why is Dyson not building his electric car there ?

 

[teflon2]

Geeco - 2019-01-26 4:55 AM

 

As a mater of interest in the last two years GM (Holden), Toyota and Ford have closed their car manufacturing plants in AU. They have relocated manufacturing to cheap labour countries or simply commenced importing "world" design cars to sell here without the influence of a Brexit type event. International companies are experts at deflecting criticism of their actions from the real reason - generally profit. Cheers,

 

 

 

careful Gary they will call you a neanderthal if you challenge their dreamworld. (lol)

[Brian Kirby]

teflon2 - 2019-01-26 5:49 PM.................If the EU is so good why is Dyson not building his electric car there ?

Well, and more to the point, if post-Brexit Britain is to be as rosy as Dyson says it will be, why doesn't he keep his HQ here, and bring back his production as well?

[HarveyHeaven]

Tracker - 2019-01-25 7:17 PM

 

Not unexpectedly you are accepting Ford's version of blame it on Brexit wheras in the real world Ford has been exiting the UK for years and like you is keen to jump on any passing negative bandwagon, but then just like the little boy who cried wolf once too often it is no less than we expect from you.

 

That you choose to obfuscate the issue by having a go at me about jobs etc is also unsurprising as you try all means to blame Brexit for everyting and if the sun does not rise tomorrow I guess that too will be the fault of HMG whilst the EU is totally blamefree.

 

No wonder they call you Bullshout - thats all you do - shout bull.

 

Richard I would love you to point out some advantages Brexit or the prospect of Brexit have brought to the UK, most especially in relaltion to jobs and the future of the NHS or Research and Development for example?

 

I don't mean the sound bites the Leave Campaign endlessly spouted but some real good stuff in relation to the above which is happening right now today? What is todays Brexit good news....what really good stuff has happened to us in the UK that woud not have happened without Brexit?

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2019-01-26 4:25 PM

 

It's not all about labour costs in isolation, it is also about union power and the UK record for disruption and probably of greater significance worker attitudes and legendary lack of commitment.

 

I recall a business seminar some 35 years ago where one of the speakers said - 'as a nation we are paying ourselves too much and not working hard enough for it and if it continues will will become less competitive on the world stage'.

 

How right he was.

 

I can't speak for Oz, but Gary might?

Apart from the RMT, regards union 'power' in UK Richard it's got about as much teeth as a mouse in need of dentures! The vast majority of UK TU's have long been in the pockets of management. However i've always supported TU membership for many reasons, such as pensions information, industrial working regulations (it's surprising how many are still blatantly ignored by management in their quest for achieving 'target' driven bonuses) and representation in cases of victimisation.

 

Did your speaker at that business seminar tell everyone he felt he was paid too much so would be taking an immediate pay cut in line with the low paid proles and their occasional 1% rise and starting three shift working as opposed to his cushy 9 to 5? More chance of hell freezing over!

[Tracker]

Bulletguy - 2019-01-26 5:59 PM

 

Apart from the RMT, regards union 'power' in UK Richard it's got about as much teeth as a mouse in need of dentures! The vast majority of UK TU's have long been in the pockets of management. However i've always supported TU membership for many reasons, such as pensions information, industrial working regulations (it's surprising how many are still blatantly ignored by management in their quest for achieving 'target' driven bonuses) and representation in cases of victimisation.

 

Did your speaker at that business seminar tell everyone he felt he was paid too much so would be taking an immediate pay cut in line with the low paid proles and their occasional 1% rise and starting three shift working as opposed to his cushy 9 to 5? More chance of hell freezing over!

 

Tell the people of Birmingham that the unions have no power or that workers are conscientious and reliable.

It may be bins today but it will be teachers tomorrow, railway staff the day after, NHS the next day and so on and it does the UK image of a good place to invest and grow so much harm.

Which is why I am very anti union and would never support any union, and from that the Labour party who are in cahoots with the worst union disrupters.

Hell freezing over will be the least of our worries if ever Corbyn and cronies gets into power.

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2019-01-26 6:08 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2019-01-26 5:59 PM

 

Apart from the RMT, regards union 'power' in UK Richard it's got about as much teeth as a mouse in need of dentures! The vast majority of UK TU's have long been in the pockets of management. However i've always supported TU membership for many reasons, such as pensions information, industrial working regulations (it's surprising how many are still blatantly ignored by management in their quest for achieving 'target' driven bonuses) and representation in cases of victimisation.

 

Did your speaker at that business seminar tell everyone he felt he was paid too much so would be taking an immediate pay cut in line with the low paid proles and their occasional 1% rise and starting three shift working as opposed to his cushy 9 to 5? More chance of hell freezing over!

 

Tell the people of Birmingham that the unions have no power or that workers are conscientious and reliable.

It may be bins today but it will be teachers tomorrow, railway staff the day after, NHS the next day and so on and it does the UK image of a good place to invest and grow so much harm.

Which is why I am very anti union and would never support any union, and from that the Labour party who are in cahoots with the worst union disrupters.

Hell freezing over will be the least of our worries if ever Corbyn and cronies gets into power.

No idea where Birmingham slots in but your pov is more than a tad biased and one sided Richard! Plenty of conscientious and reliable workers many of which go totally unrecognised and pretty much get taken for granted.

 

I spent ten years working in the NHS and back then there were a variety of TU's which today have morphed into UNISON. The only other union was the RCN (Royal College of Nursing) which was so far apart from being a "trade union", at one time it even excluded male nurses from joining. Apart from that draconian backward mindset (obviously since outlawed), the RCN also prided itself on never taking industrial action. That successfully stifled nursing pay for years but they've since seen the light at a recent RCN congress with 78% of the 50,000 nurses who voted, willing to strike, while 91% said they would be willing to take another form of industrial action over the government’s maintenance of the 1% pay rise cap.

 

Days of Florence Nightingale are over and folk have to get a grip with reality of people needing to put a meal on the table, pay rent/mortgage etc. Nursing alone requires degree level employees and i cannot think of a more dedicated profession with conscientious and reliable workers, yet for years Britain treated them pretty shoddily. They've had to fight damned hard for a decent wage.

 

Lower down the scale in the NHS you've got thousands of ancillary staff, porters, cleaners, catering etc, all essential to the running of the service. All poorly paid. Much has now been contracted out to private companies, particularly cleaning and catering, with devastating consequences as a result of running sub-contracts on ridiculous shoe-string budgets.

 

Naturally Tory government have been hankering for years to privatise the NHS. Healthcare is every capitalists dream where morals and ethics fly out the window at the opportunity of making some serious coin. Like anti-abortionist Rees-Mogg who preaches pro-life and believes in the case of rape and worse still incestuous rape, women must carry full term.....yet invests in a company manufacturing abortion pills. Given half a chance Tory government would privatise food banks to capitalise from the austerity and deprivation they've inflicted.

 

I don't know how your council works with refuse collection but mine are on contract to a private company. For that 'privilege' my collections went from weekly to twice a month, garden weeds/grass cuttings disposal now have to be paid for separately, and my rates increased. Previously i had council employed conscientious and reliable refuse collectors who'd also never taken any industrial action so why go to private sub-contract? Well it's one way of reminding the proles of their place in society i suppose with zero negotiating machinery at national level, and if they as much dare to ask for a bit more gruel, can easily be kicked out for another set to be brought in.

[Geeco]

Brian Kirby - 2019-01-26 6:38 PMMulti-national companies locate their factories where they think they will generate the best profits. It is a combination of land cost, government inducements, reliable energy supplies, proximity to ports or major transport links (for cars usually rail), political stability, tax structures, local education levels, labour costs, etc. etc. The factory, together with the production machinery, is a huge investment, so needs to be a sound base for a number of years, at least until the investment is amortised, but ideally for years after that point, which is when it becomes really profitable.When the models in production are due for replacement, and the existing plant due a major re-fit, one avenue will be to look at the economics of building a new plant at a new, more favourable, location. That will .

Brian, your summary above is pretty much the way it played out here.

Paul, I was not aware that I suggested that GM & FMC were  linked. I did say Holden was owned by GM like  Opel once was before it was sold to the French. I have no doubt profit is the prime motivator. Look at what happened in Detroit, car plants were moved to the southern states to take advantage of cheaper labour. In the case of AU, Ford took advantage of a FTA with Thailand (along with others) to import the Ford Ranger Ford's biggest seller here. GM are importing from Korea & US.

What I was suggesting was that it is common for car companies to follow profit. If they (in this case FoMoCo) can sneak out under the guise of Brexit then they probably will.

 I am very interested to see what changes on the ground occur as a result of the Brexit March cut off date when we visit in May. So long as I can still buy a gammon steak, egg & chips for dinner I will be fine. cheers,