Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down, told Sky News last night they were not yet able to prove it was made in Russia. Same interview was also on Channel 4 news and it's now spread all over msm. May has totally jumped the gun on this. He said: "We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent. "We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to Government who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions you have come to." Which completely contradicts what Johnson and May have been telling the nation over the past three weeks. https://news.sky.com/story/porton-down-experts-unable-to-identify-precise-source-of-novichok-that-poisoned-spy-11315387 Today the Foreign Office deleted a tweet saying Porton Down confirmed Salisbury Novichok produced in Russia https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/apr/04/labour-criticises-boris-johnson-over-his-porton-downnovichok-claims-as-opcw-meets-politics-live Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 I hope to God they have something more substantial, and have shown it to the other countries who have also expelled Russian diplomats to allow them to make their own assessments. Otherwise, if they have taken the UK government at face value on the basis of trust, our national reputation will be worth squat diddly in future - and that would be really serious in the run-up to Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 2:31 PM I hope to God they have something more substantial, and have shown it to the other countries who have also expelled Russian diplomats to allow them to make their own assessments. Otherwise, if they have taken the UK government at face value on the basis of trust, our national reputation will be worth squat diddly in future - and that would be really serious in the run-up to Brexit. UK Gov are in extremely serious trouble now over this. Corbyn was ridiculed when he expressed exercising caution prior to May's wild unsubstantiated claims and the expulsion of Russian diplomats. If this was a case being heard in a court of law it would have been thrown out for insufficient evidence, but now to make matters even worse, the "prosecution" have been caught lying. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/did-boris-johnson-lie-about-porton-downs-evidence-against-russia Johnson has been sacked twice before for lying. Who put these clowns in Government?? May is going to have to do some very serious damage limitation now and a start would be making a grovelling apology to Russia. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-are-we-so-surprised-that-boris-johnson-lied-when-he-s-been-sacked-for-lying-twice-before-a7105976.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Russia has offered to take part in a Joint Investigation with the UK to find out who used the Novichok. Guess who refused. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43636726 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 So, do you think we should have accepted? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Craig Murray, former UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan. "The key point is that the FCO knew it was lying. This was published six days after I was told by an FCO source, and published, that Porton Down scientists were refusing to say the substance came from Russia. The FCO knew this". "There has to be some kind of redress for this. If we accept that we live in a society where the public bodies that are supposed to serve us, can lie to us and to the world in order specifically to heat up a cold war, then the future is bleak. This is a direct consequence of the lack of suitable punishment for those involved in the crime of creating lies to wage aggressive war on Iraq, particularly Tony Blair, Richard Dearlove and John Scarlett. As they are not in jail, Boris is confident he will not be either." https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/the-poison-in-our-body-politic/ And from three weeks ago; https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 4:12 PM So, do you think we should have accepted? Seriously? As the EU told Russia it must cooperate with the OPCW, then yes i do. The same must apply to UK. “It is imperative that the Russian Federation responds to the British government’s legitimate questions, begins to cooperate with the OPCW secretariat, and provides full and complete disclosure to the OPCW,” the EU said." I would have thought it in our best interests........unless we have have something to hide from Russia. Skripal has lived here in UK for eight years. Prior to that he was in prison in Russia for six years. Had they wanted him dead they had ample opportunity then and far easier too. May and UK Gov has some very serious questions to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Yes, but I don't think cooperating with the OPCW enquiry was what Russia had in mind. We are already cooperating with the OPCW: as I believe we referred the complaint to them. That enquiry is, I believe, progressing, and involves the UK handing over what it has for evaluation, although that has also to involve Russia. I just hope that, having gone that far, no-one has been stupid enough to start this hare running without very convincing, well supported, evidence. Russia was fishing for us to take up their offer to participate in a joint enquiry, which I understand was to be just Russia and the UK, where we gave them all our evidence, and they found out what we knew, and how we'd come to know it. I should co-co! :-D Personally, under Putin, I wouldn't trust the Kremlin any further than I can spit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 4:35 PM Yes, but I don't think cooperating with the OPCW enquiry was what Russia had in mind. We are already cooperating with the OPCW: as I believe we referred the complaint to them. That enquiry is, I believe, progressing, and involves the UK handing over what it has for evaluation, although that has also to involve Russia. I just hope that, having gone that far, no-one has been stupid enough to start this hare running without very convincing, well supported, evidence. Russia was fishing for us to take up their offer to participate in a joint enquiry, which I understand was to be just Russia and the UK, where we gave them all our evidence, and they found out what we knew, and how we'd come to know it. I should co-co! :-D Personally, under Putin, I wouldn't trust the Kremlin any further than I can spit! In light of the current revelations i'm inclined to believe we already have (in bold)! I'm afraid i cannot forget, or forgive, those dark times when the electorate was conned into going to war in Iraq over "wmd's" which, as weapons inspector Dr Kelly told Parliament there was no evidence of. The US was positively itching for us to join them.....and foolishly like a little puppy dog we obliged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 2:31 PM I hope to God they have something more substantial, and have shown it to the other countries who have also expelled Russian diplomats to allow them to make their own assessments. Otherwise, if they have taken the UK government at face value on the basis of trust, our national reputation will be worth squat diddly in future - and that would be really serious in the run-up to Brexit. Why?.......Did you think it would come with a made in Russia stamp? *-) ......... Maybe you also think Russia didn't really annex the Crimea? >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Eh? Are you sure you read my post Dave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 5:35 PM Eh? Are you sure you read my post Dave? Yeah I quoted it didn't I? ;-) .......Why would it affect Brexit? :-S ........It might affect Corbyn though :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-04 5:42 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 5:35 PM Eh? Are you sure you read my post Dave? Yeah I quoted it didn't I? ;-) .......Why would it affect Brexit? :-S ........It might affect Corbyn though :D ...... Just seems you quoted it before you'd read it. If we've gone off at half cock and embroiled a lot of other countries in publicly expelling Russian diplomats in support of the UK, on grounds we can't substantiate, we're going to look the biggest bunch of fools since international diplomacy was invented. Who'd trust what the UK says after that hits the fan? So, how will that play out vis-a-vis all those trade deals we are told Brexit will bring, that are necessary to compensate for the probable loss of trade with the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-04-04 2:14 PM He said: "We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent. "We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to Government who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions you have come to." This is exactly the kind of anto government propaganda that Bulletbrain loves to try and shove down our throats. It all sounds reasonably reasonable to me - the Novichok 'family' of nerve agent's very existence was supposed to be a Russian military secret after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Tracker - 2018-04-04 7:27 PM Bulletguy - 2018-04-04 2:14 PM He said: "We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent. "We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to Government who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions you have come to." This is exactly the kind of anto government propaganda that Bulletbrain loves to try and shove down our throats. The para you quoted is what Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down said......not me. Are you suggesting he's spouting anti-government propaganda? 8-) Not that i'd be shocked by that conclusion by some people as weapons inspector Dr Kelly was treated with similar disdain 15 years ago. As ex-UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray said; Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured. It is very carefully worded propaganda of a type developed by liars. It all sounds reasonably reasonable to me - the Novichok 'family' of nerve agent's very existence was supposed to be a Russian military secret after all? Novichok has long been known about and is no 'secret'. As for the 'family of'.....thats as far as May/Johnson should have gone as neither had substantiated evidence beyond reasonable doubt to prove it's origin. 'Family of' is vague at best and isn't irrefutable proof as to it's origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Very good report on Channel 4 news this evening. https://www.channel4.com/news/russias-war-of-words-with-the-uk-escalates-over-poisoning-inquiry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 2:31 PM I hope to God they have something more substantial, and have shown it to the other countries who have also expelled Russian diplomats to allow them to make their own assessments. Otherwise, if they have taken the UK government at face value on the basis of trust, our national reputation will be worth squat diddly in future - and that would be really serious in the run-up to Brexit. Don't worry Brian, foreign governments are not quite so naive as that, a minor german official cast doubt over the source and has been soundly slapped down by Mutti. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 6:30 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-04 5:42 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 5:35 PM Eh? Are you sure you read my post Dave? Yeah I quoted it didn't I? ;-) .......Why would it affect Brexit? :-S ........It might affect Corbyn though :D ...... Just seems you quoted it before you'd read it. If we've gone off at half cock and embroiled a lot of other countries in publicly expelling Russian diplomats in support of the UK, on grounds we can't substantiate, we're going to look the biggest bunch of fools since international diplomacy was invented. Who'd trust what the UK says after that hits the fan? So, how will that play out vis-a-vis all those trade deals we are told Brexit will bring, that are necessary to compensate for the probable loss of trade with the EU? That boats well and truly sailed already. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 6:30 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-04 5:42 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 5:35 PM Eh? Are you sure you read my post Dave? Yeah I quoted it didn't I? ;-) .......Why would it affect Brexit? :-S ........It might affect Corbyn though :D ...... Just seems you quoted it before you'd read it. If we've gone off at half cock and embroiled a lot of other countries in publicly expelling Russian diplomats in support of the UK, on grounds we can't substantiate, we're going to look the biggest bunch of fools since international diplomacy was invented. Who'd trust what the UK says after that hits the fan? So, how will that play out vis-a-vis all those trade deals we are told Brexit will bring, that are necessary to compensate for the probable loss of trade with the EU? Good Moaning Brian :D ...... So now we wont get any trade deals, because the Russians wont admit they tried to kill their ex spy? *-) ........ Blimey you Remoaners are desperate 8-) ........... 357 days til Independence Day B-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-04-05 7:46 AM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 6:30 PM pelmetman - 2018-04-04 5:42 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 5:35 PM Eh? Are you sure you read my post Dave? Yeah I quoted it didn't I? ;-) .......Why would it affect Brexit? :-S ........It might affect Corbyn though :D ...... Just seems you quoted it before you'd read it. If we've gone off at half cock and embroiled a lot of other countries in publicly expelling Russian diplomats in support of the UK, on grounds we can't substantiate, we're going to look the biggest bunch of fools since international diplomacy was invented. Who'd trust what the UK says after that hits the fan? So, how will that play out vis-a-vis all those trade deals we are told Brexit will bring, that are necessary to compensate for the probable loss of trade with the EU? Good Moaning Brian :D ...... So now we wont get any trade deals, because the Russians wont admit they tried to kill their ex spy? *-) ........ Blimey you Remoaners are desperate 8-) ........... 357 days til Independence Day B-) ............ No Dave, you've got your hat on back to front! :-D Just try reading what I said without your Brexit prism between your eyes and the text. It has nothing to do with the Russians, and everything to do with what the UK has told those countries that have given the UK diplomatic support, based on their trusting that we have verifiable reason to point to Russia as the perpetrator. If we are shown to have got that wrong, our reputation for straight dealing will be seriously damaged. Can you not see the potential damage that would do to our credibility when we seek to negotiate trade deals with other countries? If you do a deal, you want a reliable, honest, trading partner. Britain will look less like that kind of partner if we've gone off at half cock, and persuaded a lot of other countries to believe us on what prove to have been false grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 If the government has acted in the honest a reasonable belief that the Russian state is responsible for the attempted murder I don’t see what the problem is. Proof beyond reasonable doubt is not proof beyond shadow of a doubt though it is often mistakenly believed to be the same. I also wonder whether the other nations that have expelled Russian diplomats care very much whether there is the proof that critics of the government’s actions say is lacking. It’s possibly in their interests of other countries on a “just in case” basis as a warning to Putin that Russian acts of aggression on foreign soil will be met with a united response from many nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 If I had a list of world leaders and politicians and had to say which of them I trusted I would have to tick the box marked 'none of the above'. But there are a few that I distrust a lot more than others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-04-05 10:04 AM If we are shown to have got that wrong, our reputation for straight dealing will be seriously damaged. Can you not see the potential damage that would do to our credibility when we seek to negotiate trade deals with other countries? If you do a deal, you want a reliable, honest, trading partner. Britain will look less like that kind of partner if we've gone off at half cock, and persuaded a lot of other countries to believe us on what prove to have been false grounds. Yeah as if it will make a blind bit of difference *-) ......... The EU's only concern is how much dosh they can screw out of the British taxpayer >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 "Lying" is a powerful word; isn't that why politicians often apologise for "miss-speaking" these days? Having seen the clip of Boris making the assertion, I suspect he just fluffed his words a bit, in his keeness to nail the Russians as the only credible suspects. As the Minister for Security said, it would be better if the CE of Porton Down had said something like "we can identify the substance chemically but investigation into who it was made by is work for police and intelligence services". When politicians (and contributors to this forum) grab opportunies to make a mountain out of molehill it does nothing for their credibility in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 StuartO - 2018-04-05 12:52 PMWhen politicians (and contributors to this forum) grab opportunies to make a mountain out of molehill it does nothing for their credibility in my eyes.On that we can agree, but it does make for a lot of small minded and distrustfed people, both on and off this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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