antony1969 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Its vile ... Truly vile ... https://news.sky.com/story/labour-mps-say-not-enough-being-done-over-cancer-of-antisemitism-11628316 ... The comparisons to 1930s Germany are frightening ... Yuk ... How can any decent minded person vote for a party rotten with racists ... Lordy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Shock news! MP's from Labour's "Friends of Israel Group", you know the ones sponsored by Israel and who have been caught on camera offering £1,000,000 to Labour MPs who unseat Jeremy Corbyn, are still making a lot of noise about antisemitism in the Labour Party. Must be an election around the corner. https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/03/28/reminder-israel-put-up-a-1000000-bounty-for-labour-insiders-to-undermine-corbyn/ Now I'm guessing from your love of all things Brexit and the funny money behind that, you are obviously a fan in allowing foreign governments to interfere in UK politics ( as long as they have the right skin tone, but I along with most members of the Labour Party find antisemitism abhorrent and know that there is nothing to see here. All that's happening here is that Israel, panicked at the thought of a Corbyn government, is mobilising its assets, the same assets that are looking to leave Labour and form a new centrist party, who would have thought that it would be in their interests to throw some muck around. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/03/rebel-labour-mps-plan-breakaway-party-anger-grows-jeremy-corbyns/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-02-05 11:24 AM I along with most members of the Labour Party find antisemitism abhorrent and know that there is nothing to see here. All that's happening here is that Israel, panicked at the thought of a Corbyn government, is mobilising its assets, the same assets that are looking to leave Labour and form a new centrist party, who would have thought that it would be in their interests to throw some muck around. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/03/rebel-labour-mps-plan-breakaway-party-anger-grows-jeremy-corbyns/ So your blaming Israel.........but your not antisemitic? :D ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-05 12:02 PM [so your blaming Israel.........but your not antisemitic? :D ............. Yes, and I'm not alone. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 I cant discuss this with an obvious anti-Semite ... Turns my stomach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-02-05 12:20 PM I cant discuss this with an obvious anti-Semite ... Turns my stomach Please if you're going to try be offended, because you can't make a reasoned argument against the evidence, at least try and spell it correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-02-05 12:31 PM antony1969 - 2019-02-05 12:20 PM I cant discuss this with an obvious anti-Semite ... Turns my stomach Please if you're going to try be offended, because you can't make a reasoned argument against the evidence, at least try and spell it correctly. "Offended" when ???... "evidence" where ??? ... "argument" what ??? ... Didn't spell "it" correctly ??? ... If it wasnt for your anti-Semitism I'd find ya quite funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 Perhaps a greater understanding of the meaning of anti-Semitism would help? http://tinyurl.com/jhle2py Calling someone an anti-Semite in writing is a serious, potentially libellous, charge. I don't see the evidence to back that charge. What I do see is someone using the charge of anti-Semitism to provoke dissent for party political reasons - which seems to me to diminish the gravity of the charge where it is truly justified. What then to call the genuine anti-Semite? Anti-Semitism exists, it should not be cheapened as ammunition for left - right political point scoring. Just my opinion, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-05 6:30 PM Perhaps a greater understanding of the meaning of anti-Semitism would help? http://tinyurl.com/jhle2py Calling someone an anti-Semite in writing is a serious, potentially libellous, charge. I don't see the evidence to back that charge. What I do see is someone using the charge of anti-Semitism to provoke dissent for party political reasons - which seems to me to diminish the gravity of the charge where it is truly justified. What then to call the genuine anti-Semite? Anti-Semitism exists, it should not be cheapened as ammunition for left - right political point scoring. Just my opinion, of course. Is calling someone an anti-Semite as serious as calling someone a racist or Islamaphobe ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-02-05 8:39 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-05 6:30 PM Perhaps a greater understanding of the meaning of anti-Semitism would help? http://tinyurl.com/jhle2py Calling someone an anti-Semite in writing is a serious, potentially libellous, charge. I don't see the evidence to back that charge. What I do see is someone using the charge of anti-Semitism to provoke dissent for party political reasons - which seems to me to diminish the gravity of the charge where it is truly justified. What then to call the genuine anti-Semite? Anti-Semitism exists, it should not be cheapened as ammunition for left - right political point scoring. Just my opinion, of course. Is calling someone an anti-Semite as serious as calling someone a racist or Islamaphobe ??? Yes, if not worse - because of the historic context. It is a hatred of Jews, both religious and non-religious, based on both faith and ethnicity. A double whammy. Anti-Semitism is a form of racism that is much more insidious, IMO, than racism based on obvious ethnic characteristics - largely because it hides behind a veil of urban respectability. OTOH, Islamophobia is a fear of Islam, hot a hatred of Muslims per se, so while it is equally insidious, it is aimed at a faith, and not a race. All the above are guilty of a complete failure to distinguish the worthy from the unworthy, and to unthinkingly attribute the actions of the few to the many. They are all sub-sets of xenophobia - that fear and distrust of that which is perceived as foreign or strange. They all belong in our primitive past. If you happen to fall into one of the target groups, you get the blame for whatever misdeed, social faux pas, or atrocity, has been committed by a total stranger who just happens, coincidentally, to fall into the same identifiable group as you. Anti-Semitism, racism, and Islamophobia all similar, in that they are the fuel that feeds into blind hatred, which eventually seeks to excuse acts of mass extermination - on the ground that "they" are all the same, so deserve the same fate. They are not: and they do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Anti Semitism seems to be aimed solely at the Jews when in fact there are a number of Semites, most of them Muslims. Our friend Corbyn cannot be judged to be an anti Semite when he has close ties to Middle East factions who are either Semitic or terrorists funded by Semites (such as Syria). https://classroom.synonym.com/who-are-the-semitic-people-12083709.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-02-05 12:12 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-05 12:02 PM [so your blaming Israel.........but your not antisemitic? :D ............. Yes, and I'm not alone. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html So your blaming the Jewish state of Israel for protecting its self from folk who want to kill them? *-) .......... Seems a bit anti Semitic to me ;-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 11:36 AM OTOH, Islamophobia is a fear of Islam, hot a hatred of Muslims per se, so while it is equally insidious, it is aimed at a faith, and not a race. So you've not read the Koran then? *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-06 1:26 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 11:36 AM OTOH, Islamophobia is a fear of Islam, hot a hatred of Muslims per se, so while it is equally insidious, it is aimed at a faith, and not a race. So you've not read the Koran then? *-) .......... And that relates to my post how, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-06 1:24 PM So your blaming the Jewish state of Israel for protecting its self from folk who want to kill them? *-) .......... Seems a bit anti Semitic to me ;-) .......... That's because you can't see the difference between being opposed to the policies of the government of Israel - and being anti Jewish. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 11:36 AM antony1969 - 2019-02-05 8:39 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-05 6:30 PM Perhaps a greater understanding of the meaning of anti-Semitism would help? http://tinyurl.com/jhle2py Calling someone an anti-Semite in writing is a serious, potentially libellous, charge. I don't see the evidence to back that charge. What I do see is someone using the charge of anti-Semitism to provoke dissent for party political reasons - which seems to me to diminish the gravity of the charge where it is truly justified. What then to call the genuine anti-Semite? Anti-Semitism exists, it should not be cheapened as ammunition for left - right political point scoring. Just my opinion, of course. Is calling someone an anti-Semite as serious as calling someone a racist or Islamaphobe ??? Yes, if not worse - because of the historic context. It is a hatred of Jews, both religious and non-religious, based on both faith and ethnicity. A double whammy. Anti-Semitism is a form of racism that is much more insidious, IMO, than racism based on obvious ethnic characteristics - largely because it hides behind a veil of urban respectability. OTOH, Islamophobia is a fear of Islam, hot a hatred of Muslims per se, so while it is equally insidious, it is aimed at a faith, and not a race. All the above are guilty of a complete failure to distinguish the worthy from the unworthy, and to unthinkingly attribute the actions of the few to the many. They are all sub-sets of xenophobia - that fear and distrust of that which is perceived as foreign or strange. They all belong in our primitive past. If you happen to fall into one of the target groups, you get the blame for whatever misdeed, social faux pas, or atrocity, has been committed by a total stranger who just happens, coincidentally, to fall into the same identifiable group as you. Anti-Semitism, racism, and Islamophobia all similar, in that they are the fuel that feeds into blind hatred, which eventually seeks to excuse acts of mass extermination - on the ground that "they" are all the same, so deserve the same fate. They are not: and they do not. Of course it all depends on who's throwing the label of anti-Semite , racist or Islamaphobe ... We know from this forum and in general that the word racist gets thrown about for the most minor thing by the permanently offended and therefore is so watered down most of the time it means nothing and they've made it into an almost meaningless word ... Islamaphobe is a relatively new word and tends to get thrown at anyone who dares to question Islam by the same wet behind the ears drips as a way to try to silence , thankfully in the free world we are allowed to still just about question Islam and Islamaphobe to me means nothing ... Anti-Semites though they are proper mingers I agree and the fact our opposition party is riddled with em is an embarrassment and shows if we aren't careful the acts of "mass extermination" you talk of may not be far off once again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-02-06 4:56 PM...………………...Of course it all depends on who's throwing the label of anti-Semite , racist or Islamaphobe ... We know from this forum and in general that the word racist gets thrown about for the most minor thing by the permanently offended and therefore is so watered down most of the time it means nothing and they've made it into an almost meaningless word ……………... I think it depends on who you are. If you are the one on the receiving end of anti-Semitism, racism, or Islamophobia, I doubt if you perceive the words or actions used against you as minor or as meaning nothing. They are all from the same xenophobic mould, they are all equally hurtful to those affected and, IMO, it is invidious to try to single any out as more or less destructive than the others. But the quid pro quo is that no one should be accused of those traits casually and in the absence of evidence that they exhibit the trait. But, if they do exhibit the trait, they should absolutely be called out for what they say and/or do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 malc d - 2019-02-06 3:23 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-06 1:24 PM So your blaming the Jewish state of Israel for protecting its self from folk who want to kill them? *-) .......... Seems a bit anti Semitic to me ;-) .......... That's because you can't see the difference between being opposed to the policies of the government of Israel - and being anti Jewish. :-| So you object to Israel being able to protect themselves from Hezbollah? :-| .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 3:18 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-06 1:26 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 11:36 AM OTOH, Islamophobia is a fear of Islam, hot a hatred of Muslims per se, so while it is equally insidious, it is aimed at a faith, and not a race. So you've not read the Koran then? *-) .......... And that relates to my post how, exactly? Well its always useful to know what your talking about ;-) .......... If you've not read it, then you don't have a clue about how much they hate Non Believers *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 5:24 PM antony1969 - 2019-02-06 4:56 PM...………………...Of course it all depends on who's throwing the label of anti-Semite , racist or Islamaphobe ... We know from this forum and in general that the word racist gets thrown about for the most minor thing by the permanently offended and therefore is so watered down most of the time it means nothing and they've made it into an almost meaningless word ……………... I think it depends on who you are. If you are the one on the receiving end of anti-Semitism, racism, or Islamophobia, I doubt if you perceive the words or actions used against you as minor or as meaning nothing. They are all from the same xenophobic mould, they are all equally hurtful to those affected and, IMO, it is invidious to try to single any out as more or less destructive than the others. But the quid pro quo is that no one should be accused of those traits casually and in the absence of evidence that they exhibit the trait. But, if they do exhibit the trait, they should absolutely be called out for what they say and/or do. But I was speaking of the likes of folk on here who throw the usual name calling racist blah blah blah , they haven't been the victims of or on the "receiving end" have they so they aren't talking from personal experience but they try by spewing out "racist' at anything and anyone who questions anything to do with race related issues to shut them down with that old racist tag ... if questioning Islam means you "exhibit the trait" and somehow deserve that new Islamaphobe tag would one deserve an EUaphobe tag at questioning the EU or as some on here question POTUS Trump a Trumpaphobe tag or is that somehow different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-06 5:31 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 3:18 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-06 1:26 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 11:36 AM OTOH, Islamophobia is a fear of Islam, hot a hatred of Muslims per se, so while it is equally insidious, it is aimed at a faith, and not a race. So you've not read the Koran then? *-) .......... And that relates to my post how, exactly? Well its always useful to know what your talking about ;-) .......... If you've not read it, then you don't have a clue about how much they hate Non Believers *-) .......... But there you go. Who is they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-02-06 5:34 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 5:24 PM antony1969 - 2019-02-06 4:56 PM...………………...Of course it all depends on who's throwing the label of anti-Semite , racist or Islamaphobe ... We know from this forum and in general that the word racist gets thrown about for the most minor thing by the permanently offended and therefore is so watered down most of the time it means nothing and they've made it into an almost meaningless word ……………... I think it depends on who you are. If you are the one on the receiving end of anti-Semitism, racism, or Islamophobia, I doubt if you perceive the words or actions used against you as minor or as meaning nothing. They are all from the same xenophobic mould, they are all equally hurtful to those affected and, IMO, it is invidious to try to single any out as more or less destructive than the others. But the quid pro quo is that no one should be accused of those traits casually and in the absence of evidence that they exhibit the trait. But, if they do exhibit the trait, they should absolutely be called out for what they say and/or do. But I was speaking of the likes of folk on here who throw the usual name calling racist blah blah blah , they haven't been the victims of or on the "receiving end" have they so they aren't talking from personal experience but they try by spewing out "racist' at anything and anyone who questions anything to do with race related issues to shut them down with that old racist tag ... if questioning Islam means you "exhibit the trait" and somehow deserve that new Islamaphobe tag would one deserve an EUaphobe tag at questioning the EU or as some on here question POTUS Trump a Trumpaphobe tag or is that somehow different It depends, IMO, on what is said, and how. I don't like this or that aspect of Islam (assuming it is correct in its allegation) is not the same as saying I don't like Islam (or I don't like Muslims). One is specific, and may well be justified: the other is a blanket declaration. So with the EU. I don't like this or that about the EU (same proviso) is not the same as I don't like the EU. So if I were to say I don't like this or that of Trump's policies or statements (ditto), it would not be the same as saying I don't like Trump. In each case the one is against features or aspects of something that are identified, the other merely condemns the whole religion, institution, or person without reason. One is a reasoned argument, the other prejudice. I might say I don't like damp, windy, weather. I might add that Britain is often damp and windy. But would that really be the same as saying I don't like Britain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-06 5:29 PM malc d - 2019-02-06 3:23 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-06 1:24 PM So your blaming the Jewish state of Israel for protecting its self from folk who want to kill them? *-) .......... Seems a bit anti Semitic to me ;-) .......... That's because you can't see the difference between being opposed to the policies of the government of Israel - and being anti Jewish. :-| So you object to Israel being able to protect themselves from Hezbollah? :-| .......... (?) Strange question. It is the Israeli governments duty to protect all its citizens, regardless of their religion. What has that to do with anti- Semitism ? :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 8:28 PM antony1969 - 2019-02-06 5:34 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-06 5:24 PM antony1969 - 2019-02-06 4:56 PM...………………...Of course it all depends on who's throwing the label of anti-Semite , racist or Islamaphobe ... We know from this forum and in general that the word racist gets thrown about for the most minor thing by the permanently offended and therefore is so watered down most of the time it means nothing and they've made it into an almost meaningless word ……………... I think it depends on who you are. If you are the one on the receiving end of anti-Semitism, racism, or Islamophobia, I doubt if you perceive the words or actions used against you as minor or as meaning nothing. They are all from the same xenophobic mould, they are all equally hurtful to those affected and, IMO, it is invidious to try to single any out as more or less destructive than the others. But the quid pro quo is that no one should be accused of those traits casually and in the absence of evidence that they exhibit the trait. But, if they do exhibit the trait, they should absolutely be called out for what they say and/or do. But I was speaking of the likes of folk on here who throw the usual name calling racist blah blah blah , they haven't been the victims of or on the "receiving end" have they so they aren't talking from personal experience but they try by spewing out "racist' at anything and anyone who questions anything to do with race related issues to shut them down with that old racist tag ... if questioning Islam means you "exhibit the trait" and somehow deserve that new Islamaphobe tag would one deserve an EUaphobe tag at questioning the EU or as some on here question POTUS Trump a Trumpaphobe tag or is that somehow different It depends, IMO, on what is said, and how. I don't like this or that aspect of Islam (assuming it is correct in its allegation) is not the same as saying I don't like Islam (or I don't like Muslims). One is specific, and may well be justified: the other is a blanket declaration. So with the EU. I don't like this or that about the EU (same proviso) is not the same as I don't like the EU. So if I were to say I don't like this or that of Trump's policies or statements (ditto), it would not be the same as saying I don't like Trump. In each case the one is against features or aspects of something that are identified, the other merely condemns the whole religion, institution, or person without reason. One is a reasoned argument, the other prejudice. I might say I don't like damp, windy, weather. I might add that Britain is often damp and windy. But would that really be the same as saying I don't like Britain? So by your reckoning when certain delicate types on here call me and David Islamaphobes for picking out certain aspects of Islam they are wrong then and I don't believe David or myself have ever said we "don't like Muslims" ... Thankyou oh wise one ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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