Guest pelmetman Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 Suggests Corbyn....... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5492005/Jeremy-Corbyn-branded-shameful-slamming-Tories-Russia.html .....but if he did we should invite him for a cuppa tea and tell him he's been a very naughty boy >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Isn't he minging .... Not Putin ... Comrade Cob ... Yuk ... Barry likes him though ... He's changed his house name to Corbyn Cottage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-13 9:37 AM Isn't he minging .... Not Putin ... Comrade Cob ... Yuk ... Barry likes him though ... He's changed his house name to Corbyn Cottage I heard you and Dave were big into "Cottaging" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-03-13 10:38 AM antony1969 - 2018-03-13 9:37 AM Isn't he minging .... Not Putin ... Comrade Cob ... Yuk ... Barry likes him though ... He's changed his house name to Corbyn Cottage I heard you and Dave were big into "Cottaging" Yeah we're awaiting our invite to Bottom Magnet to look at yours :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 If you could look beyond the Daily Mail version of this, you would see that Corbyn is merely suggesting we wait for the evidence, instead of the Government rushing in making fools of themselves like they did over Iraq/WMD. Except that its even worse this time because we can't win a war against Russia. Especially since the Tories have closed down our coal mines leaving us dependent on Russian Gas.l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-15 6:26 AM If you could look beyond the Daily Mail version of this, you would see that Corbyn is merely suggesting we wait for the evidence, instead of the Government rushing in making fools of themselves like they did over Iraq/WMD. Except that its even worse this time because we can't win a war against Russia. Especially since the Tories have closed down our coal mines leaving us dependent on Russian Gas.l You mean evidence like ....... Who made the nerve agent?....... Who are the only people who have access to the agent?...... Who would want to kill a ex Russian spy?......... Well the answer is obvious *-) ....... It is also bleedin obvious why his puppet would defend his chum >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-03-15 8:36 AM John52 - 2018-03-15 6:26 AM If you could look beyond the Daily Mail version of this, you would see that Corbyn is merely suggesting we wait for the evidence, instead of the Government rushing in making fools of themselves like they did over Iraq/WMD. Except that its even worse this time because we can't win a war against Russia. Especially since the Tories have closed down our coal mines leaving us dependent on Russian Gas.l You mean evidence like ....... Who made the nerve agent?....... Who are the only people who have access to the agent?...... Who would want to kill a ex Russian spy?......... Well the answer is obvious *-) ....... It is also bleedin obvious why his puppet would defend his chum >:-) ........ I must have missed it but hasn't anyone among our resident wets blamed POTUS Trump ... Maybe he sent The First Lady over to do the dirty work ... Must be him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 I hadnt thought of Trump but now you mention it. Could be a good distraction from Brexit starting a war with Russia though. Worked for Maggie with the Falklands. Nothing brings a country together more than a good old punch up. Brexit causes WW3! Even I couldnt have made that one up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-03-15 8:36 AM Who are the only people who have access to the agent?...... Good Question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 John52 - 2018-03-15 10:49 AM pelmetman - 2018-03-15 8:36 AM Who are the only people who have access to the agent?...... Good Question. The answer is Russians ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-03-15 10:45 AM I hadnt thought of Trump but now you mention it. Could be a good distraction from Brexit starting a war with Russia though. Worked for Maggie with the Falklands. Nothing brings a country together more than a good old punch up. Brexit causes WW3! Even I couldnt have made that one up. Maybe it was those rich Tories then , Rees Smug and his crew trying to start a war with Russia and a stock market crash that eventually they'll benefit from ... Maybe it was The Daily Mail who did it so they can sell more papers with their exclusive "Russian Spy Ate My Nerve Agent" ... Tommy Robinson possibly ... The Royal Family maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-03-15 11:51 AM Barryd999 - 2018-03-15 10:45 AM I hadnt thought of Trump but now you mention it. Could be a good distraction from Brexit starting a war with Russia though. Worked for Maggie with the Falklands. Nothing brings a country together more than a good old punch up. Brexit causes WW3! Even I couldnt have made that one up. Maybe it was those rich Tories then , Rees Smug and his crew trying to start a war with Russia and a stock market crash that eventually they'll benefit from ... Maybe it was The Daily Mail who did it so they can sell more papers with their exclusive "Russian Spy Ate My Nerve Agent" ... Tommy Robinson possibly ... The Royal Family maybe Good theories. Could be all of em! Another one here. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736?mode=amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 There may be technical difficulties collecting a sample of the nerve agent used in Salisbury because of the way it was designed to be hard to detect and perhaps also to decay or self destruct after use - which may explain why the Russians are asking for a sample as a precondition of cooperating, which their track record suggest they have absolutely no intention of doing anyway. I think you have to be, if you have looked at the circumstantial evidence that Russia is more than likely to have done this, a bit self deceptive or an apologist for Russia, to suggest that anyone else could have done this. And of course while the Russian will issue bare faced denials, the sad truth is they probably want everyone to know that they do and will continue to target people for assasination, at home or abroad, as a way of discouraging those they call traitors. The Russian saying, that if you can't beat your opponent then you kill him says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-03-15 12:16 PM antony1969 - 2018-03-15 11:51 AM Barryd999 - 2018-03-15 10:45 AM I hadnt thought of Trump but now you mention it. Could be a good distraction from Brexit starting a war with Russia though. Worked for Maggie with the Falklands. Nothing brings a country together more than a good old punch up. Brexit causes WW3! Even I couldnt have made that one up. Maybe it was those rich Tories then , Rees Smug and his crew trying to start a war with Russia and a stock market crash that eventually they'll benefit from ... Maybe it was The Daily Mail who did it so they can sell more papers with their exclusive "Russian Spy Ate My Nerve Agent" ... Tommy Robinson possibly ... The Royal Family maybe Good theories. Could be all of em! Another one here. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736?mode=amp I'd have a look but I never read links to The Irish Times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-03-15 11:06 AM John52 - 2018-03-15 10:49 AM pelmetman - 2018-03-15 8:36 AM Who are the only people who have access to the agent?...... Good Question. The answer is Russians ;-) ........ Not entirely correct. Russian scientists developed Novichok back in the 1970's but Porton Down most certainly know how to make it. Also there is a retired Russian chemical weapons scientist who worked on Novichok living in Princeton USA. So the yanks also know how to make it so at least three countries who could access it. There may be more of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 6:56 AM.... Not entirely correct. Russian scientists developed Novichok back in the 1970's but Porton Down most certainly know how to make it.Also there is a retired Russian chemical weapons scientist who worked on Novichok living in Princeton USA. the yanks also know how to make it so at least three countries who could access it. There may be more of course. You are assuming that Porton Down could make this stuff, likewise you are assuming the Americans could - but you have absolutely no evidence that either he reason to do so other than as a means of developing the means of dealing with it as a threat. Given that this type of nerve agent is known to have been developed in Russia and there is no evidence that anyone else has it, the target of the attack was a Russian known to have worked as a spy for MI6 against Russia's interests, Putin is known to have declared an intention to ensure that "traitors will kick the bucket" and that Russia has a track record of punishment killings, is it credible that any other country would have the means and the motive for this attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 3:56 PM pelmetman - 2018-03-15 11:06 AM John52 - 2018-03-15 10:49 AM pelmetman - 2018-03-15 8:36 AM Who are the only people who have access to the agent?...... Good Question. The answer is Russians ;-) ........ Not entirely correct. Russian scientists developed Novichok back in the 1970's but Porton Down most certainly know how to make it. Also there is a retired Russian chemical weapons scientist who worked on Novichok living in Princeton USA. So the yanks also know how to make it so at least three countries who could access it. There may be more of course. Yeah they prolly got it of ebay (lol) .........Dam there's thick and then there's Labour voters 8-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 StuartO - 2018-03-15 4:21 PM Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 6:56 AM.... Not entirely correct. Russian scientists developed Novichok back in the 1970's but Porton Down most certainly know how to make it.Also there is a retired Russian chemical weapons scientist who worked on Novichok living in Princeton USA. the yanks also know how to make it so at least three countries who could access it. There may be more of course.You are assuming that Porton Down could make this stuff, likewise you are assuming the Americans could - but you have absolutely no evidence that either he reason to do so other than as a means of developing the means of dealing with it as a threat. Given that this type of nerve agent is known to have been developed in Russia and there is no evidence that anyone else has it, the target of the attack was a Russian known to have worked as a spy for MI6 against Russia's interests, Putin is known to have declared an intention to ensure that "traitors will kick the bucket" and that Russia has a track record of punishment killings, is it credible that any other country would have the means and the motive for this attack Porton Down facility has existed for over a century and it's an established fact they've developed chemical weapons. That's what the place was built for and during ww1 developed mustard gas, phosgene and chlorine. Prior to ww2 Government authorised offensive chemical warfare research and development and the production of war reserve stocks of chemical warfare agents by the chemical industry. Post war they developed the deadly VX agent. There were reports over unethical testing of nerve agents on humans after the death of a 20 year old RAF serviceman who had Sarin dripped on his arm. It killed him within minutes. In the 1960s one of their scientists was accidentally killed after being exposed to a chemical. Preoccupation with defence against nerve agents continued, but in the 1970s and 1980s, the Establishment was also concerned with studying reported chemical warfare by Iraq against Iran and against its own Kurdish population. The laboratory now contains samples of some of the world's most aggressive pathogens, including Ebola, anthrax and the plague, and is leading the UK's current research into viral inoculations. With that background history i think it fairly safe to say they have the knowledge and skills to manufacture Novichok. Purely because something is developed in one country doesn't mean they forever remain the only country in the world with the means or knowledge to manufacture. Rocketry was developed by a German, Von Braun, in Germany who'd been playing around with them long before ww2 and much longer before joining NASA and showing them how they could achieve their moon landing dream. To throw another curveball, Christopher Steele is possibly somewhere 'in the mix' though he's gone to ground now. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier Steele runs this place based in London; https://orbisbi.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 So you are simply expressing suspicions, based on what you think might possibly have been done at Porton Down, without evidence at all. It doesn't seem to me that any of that takes away the likelihood that Russian, with resources and motives, did it beyond reasonable doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-03-15 11:06 AM John52 - 2018-03-15 10:49 AM pelmetman - 2018-03-15 8:36 AM Who are the only people who have access to the agent?...... Good Question. The answer is Russians ;-) ........ Didn't know you had such an extensive knowlege from reading the Daily Mail Dave *-) Reminds me of the Fawlty Towers epidode where Manuel says 'I learn all my skills from Signor Fawlty' :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 StuartO - 2018-03-15 6:13 PM So you are simply expressing suspicions, based on what you think might possibly have been done at Porton Down, without evidence at all. It doesn't seem to me that any of that takes away the likelihood that Russian, with resources and motives, did it beyond reasonable doubt. Which is no more or less than what you've also expressed though claiming 'did it beyond reasonable doubt' is amazingly conclusive. What basis do you have to conclude 'beyond reasonable doubt' because as far as i'm aware not even our own authorities have got that far yet? You need to have strong irrefutable evidence for that and Porton Down identifying the nerve agent as Russian isn't irrefutable evidence it was planted by them. How do you know it wasn't planted by any other outside source? Why has Christopher Steele now mysteriously gone to ground? The US have a libel case involving the Trump dossier linking him and Russia, but Steeles lawyers have said he should not be forced to give evidence in their libel case because it could put his sources at risk and harm UK national security. Expelling 23 Russian diplomats will result in nothing other than 'tit for tat' expulsions of British diplomats from Russia, and at a time when they are needed more than any, so that's pretty silly. As for May telling Russia no member of the Royal family will attend the World Cup.......i imagine Putin must have wept buckets of crocodile tears over that! Personally i'm keeping an open mind on the whole business but doubt we will ever be allowed to know the full truth.....'security reasons' will be cited. May is PM of an extremely weak Government facing a crisis in home politics and seems desperate for her "Falklands moment" of glory, but this is Russia she's dealing with, not Argentina. If she's not careful she could well end up leading us into a second Cold War period. Another case is that of GCHQ intelligence officer Gareth Williams, murdered eight years ago under 'suspicious circumstances', his body found in a locked holdall bag in his bathroom. All sorts of stories flew around over that, especially when police found a wardrobe full of female designer dresses and shoes. Closet transvestite or planted by his killers? Who knows....only Williams, but dead men can't talk. Williams was working with MI6 at the time of his murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 A thought provoking read; https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 And another thought provoking read! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-spy-case-could-spell-trouble-for-abramovich-wcwzvwh8g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 8:43 PM A thought provoking read; https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/ Especially this bit ;-) ......... "With a great many thanks to sources who cannot be named at this moment." Putin said don't tell em my name Pike :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 10:57 PM And another thought provoking read! https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-spy-case-could-spell-trouble-for-abramovich-wcwzvwh8g The Times won't let me read it. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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