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Put Brexit on hold for a while?


StuartO

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The rejection of Theresa May's approach to Brexit, which was the basis upon which she called the General Election, must be seen at the very least as a rejection of a "Hard Brexit" outcome, so the "I'm going to be a difficult woman" intention has become untenable.  Maybe the British Public want the best of both words, as Jeremy Corbyn claimed he could deliver, with control of our borders and continuing memebership of the free trading links with the EU - which is of course a cornerstone of what the EU said we couldn't have.  Jeremy Corbyn would clearly be willing to offer continuing open borders to all EU citizens (which he wants to do unilaterally anyway) and many people have thought that would be reliquishing too much of the leverage which our negotiators would need.

 

So we no longer have a negotiating position (without willingess to accept there might be failure of negotiation and therefore a hard Brexit) so we cannot sensibly start negotiating until we devise one.  There wasn't that big a margin in the (non-binding) Referendum so maybe less determination overall to leave the EU than there was.

 

As I understood it the EU have already said that the UK can reverse the Article 50 Notification (and simply continue with the status quo UK Membership of the EU) and of course there is no legal obstacle to UK resubmitting that notification again in due course if that is what the British Electorate want to happen.

 

It is a change in the wishes of the UK Electorate (in the form of a rejection of Theresa May's Leadership) so it seems to me we now need a delay in pushing for EU Exit - and probably a new Referendum once the apprach to leaving the EU has been reformulated.  The Leavers will sound off with "how dare you fail to act on the decision to leave the EU" but I think we have to tell them to be patient.

 

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StuartO - 2017-06-09 11:33 AM Membership of the EU) and of course there is no legal obstacle to UK resubmitting that notification again in due course if that is what the British Electorate want to happen.

 

It is a change in the wishes of the UK Electorate (in the form of a rejection of Theresa May's Leadership) so it seems to me we now need a delay in pushing for EU Exit - and probably a new Referendum once the apprach to leaving the EU has been reformulated.  The Leavers will sound off with "how dare you fail to act on the decision to leave the EU" but I think we have to tell them to be patient.

Stuart, the only thing wrong with that, is that the EU will alter the rules so that any country could be kicked out but none could opt out ;-) Dave
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I said similar earlier Stuart but not in great a detail. Its looking less and less possible to negotiate the right deal and the large majority do not want a hard Brexit. Really we still need to know what the options would be but I would support it being put on hold for say five years with a further referendum then once this country is more stable but of course the only reason we are unstable now is because of Brexit in the first place.

 

The entire thing has been a complete farce from day one.

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Good, but look back at the reasons for Brexit.

 

The main issues seemed to be that people felt too many migrants had come to UK, and had settled in too great numbers in too few places, and by leaving we could halt that. Second, there were those who felt that too much legislation emanated from the EU, and by leaving we could reinstate the sovereignty of the UK parliament. Third, that we paid too high a price for our membership, and by leaving we could spent that money better within the UK. Fourth, that there were too many regulations being imposed by the EU, and by leaving we could cancel those and de-regulate generally. Fifth, the feeling that the bureaucrats ran the EU, and our own politicians didn't get a look in.

 

Have any of those feelings really diminished? If they haven't, it is difficult to see how these suggestions would be received. I agree with Stuart's main thesis that some sort of stay in progress, or withdrawal of the Article 50 notice, seems sensible, but before doing that some of the myths about what the EU imposed, rather than what our own politicians agreed to but chose to present as EU imposition, needs to be made. That presents some considerable problems for both our parties of government, because they would both have to admit to their previous lack of openness.

 

A further referendum seems pointless, much as I like the idea, simply because until the truth about our relations with/within the EEC/EU is outed, and a bit of clarity substituted, people will retain the above (and other) myths, no doubt with the continuing connivance of the Daily Mail. Both main UK parties are still divided over Europe, so neither has ever been prepared to embrace the European visions when in government, for fear of alienating their own sceptic back benchers, and bringing themselves down as a consequence. If only we had, IMO, embraced the European vision, the EU would be a better organisation that it presently is, and none of this farce would have happened. It just seems these pigeons have taken a very long time to find their roost!

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Well Dave, to the first bit, because nothing ever stands still. :-) Trite, I accept, but still, I think, true.

 

Look at its history, from its origins in the European Coal and Steel Agreement, from which the EEC emerged. It has always been changing, and I guess will go on doing so.

 

The greatest mistake, from the point of view of the EEC/EU itself, was to take on the ex iron curtain countries, but the UK was all in favour of that (not least because it was clear at the time that the sceptics thought the strain would break it), and the Americans pushed for it because they thought that group of ex communist countries would either take to fighting among themselves (as happened with the break-up of Yugoslavia), or with more dangerous others. They were/are at too undeveloped a stage economically and politically to integrate comfortably with the likes of France, Germany, Benelux, Italy and the UK. So, the "broadeners" won, and we have what we now have.

 

The second largest mistake was with the Euro, where tying in all those countries plus Spain, Portugal, and especially Greece was nuts. That is the main reason Germany is the biggest beneficiary of membership. The weaker economies drag down the value of the Euro, and Germany's well oiled manufacturing sector can profitably export at prices well below what they'd had got when they had the Dmark.

 

I have no idea whether German politicians and economists could foresee that outcome at the time, but if they did they really deserve to be described as "brilliant", because they'd have needed 100% foresight over several decades to have done so. Personally, I think it's just the way its worked out for them, and not some grand conspiracy for dominance.

 

But, you do have to ask yourself why it is that Germany has that well oiled manufacturing sector, that provides such high employment, and provides good incomes for so many, while we do not. The answer to that, is the main reason I think Brexit will prove a profound mistake. The UK would do pretty well if it was run by the Germans in the way they run their own country. But it isn't.

 

Now just think, would Angela Merkel have made the mistakes Cameron and may have made, and taken the unnecessary risks they took, and lost? Maybe we could borrow her for a few years, while we sort ourselves out? :-D Oi, and not so much of the "old"! >:-(

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Guest pelmetman

Article 50 has been triggered so the clocks ticking ;-) ...........

 

If this election results in us getting a worse BREXIT deal *-) ........

 

Generation Gullible will be picking up the tab >:-) ..........

 

 

 

 

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pelmetman - 2017-06-10 7:52 AM

 

Article 50 has been triggered so the clocks ticking ;-) ...........

 

If this election results in us getting a worse BREXIT deal *-) ........

 

Generation Gullible will be picking up the tab >:-) ..........

 

 

 

 

Aren't generation gullible the ones that believe stuff thats written on the side of a bus? You know the ones that think we can get rid of all the foreigners? :D

 

I Think they are the ones that should be picking up the tab seeing as its Brexit that got us into this mess and the only reason your beloved Theresa also called a snap election. Thats what happens when you do bonkers things like Brexit and letting the public decide, it has a habit of blowing up in your face.

 

Article 50 may have been invoked but Junker himself said we can rejoin at anytime. Truth is nobody has a clue what will happen yet or how it will all go but if we end up with a crap deal the only people to blame is those that took us here.

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Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 10:06 AM

 

 

 

......................................................... Brexit that got us into this mess and the only reason your beloved Theresa also called a snap election.

 

Thats what happens when you do bonkers things like Brexit and letting the public decide, it has a habit of blowing up in your face.

 

/QUOTE]

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

malc.d

 

 

What a short memory you have Barry.

 

Brexit is 100% David Camerons fault - you can't put put all the blame on voters.

 

 

;-)

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John52 - 2017-06-10 11:05 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 10:06 AM

 

if we end up with a crap deal.

IF? IF?

Does anyone still believe these clowns will outsmart 27 other countries to get us a better deal out than we had when we were in *-)

 

We don't need to deal with 27 other countries ;-) .......Just Germany *-) ........and they'll deffo want flog their cockmoblies to us >:-) ........

 

 

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I suppose if someone turns up for the negotiations with the EU guys, we will at least find out what their starting position in negotiations is.  We could then walk away and withdraw the Article 50 notificationand hold back until the dust has settled from our recent General Election,  notification to Leave, we will at least find out what their starting position in negotiations is. 

 

We could then walk away and withdraw the Article 50 notification (unilaterally) and hold back until the dust has settled from our recent General Election.  This would allow the Tories to get themselves a new Party Leader, who will (unless it's Boris of course) have no Brexit baggage and be free the think again about whether and when we resubmit notification to Leave or have a new Referendum first.

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malc d - 2017-06-10 11:19 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 10:06 AM

 

 

 

......................................................... Brexit that got us into this mess and the only reason your beloved Theresa also called a snap election.

 

Thats what happens when you do bonkers things like Brexit and letting the public decide, it has a habit of blowing up in your face.

 

/QUOTE]

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

malc.d

 

 

What a short memory you have Barry.

 

Brexit is 100% David Camerons fault - you can't put put all the blame on voters.

 

 

;-)

 

Yes I should have included him, UKIP and the far right Tories that also pressurised Cameron into holding the referendum in the first place. Ultimately they are to blame. I will have little sympathy for any of them when it all goes sour though, especially those in repressed areas that voted out in their masses who will be the first to complain when they have no jobs, money, food or houses.

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StuartO - 2017-06-10 1:30 PMI suppose if someone turns up for the negotiations with the EU guys, we will at least find out what their starting position in negotiations is.  We could then walk away and withdraw the Article 50 notificationand hold back until the dust has settled from our recent General Election,  notification to Leave, we will at least find out what their starting position in negotiations is. 

 

We could then walk away and withdraw the Article 50 notification (unilaterally) and hold back until the dust has settled from our recent General Election.  This would allow the Tories to get themselves a new Party Leader, who will (unless it's Boris of course) have no Brexit baggage and be free the think again about whether and when we resubmit notification to Leave or have a new Referendum first.

That makes a lot of sense and as Brian and yourself have said we need to know as much as possible what it is we would be facing. The first referendum was completely pointless as everyone was voting on an idea plucked out of the air of what they thought Brexit might mean. The entire system of leaving is flawed. You wouldnt buy a motorhome based on an idea you have drawn in your head or what some dodgy salesman called Boris or Nigel has drawn for you with a crayon. You would want to go an see it and have a good look around, do the maths etc.
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Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 2:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-06-10 11:19 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 10:06 AM

 

 

 

......................................................... Brexit that got us into this mess and the only reason your beloved Theresa also called a snap election.

 

Thats what happens when you do bonkers things like Brexit and letting the public decide, it has a habit of blowing up in your face.

 

/QUOTE]

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

malc.d

 

 

What a short memory you have Barry.

 

Brexit is 100% David Camerons fault - you can't put put all the blame on voters.

 

 

;-)

 

Yes I should have included him, UKIP and the far right Tories that also pressurised Cameron into holding the referendum in the first place. Ultimately they are to blame. I will have little sympathy for any of them when it all goes sour though, especially those in repressed areas that voted out in their masses who will be the first to complain when they have no jobs, money, food or houses.

 

You have no sympathy for those in "repressed areas that voted out in their masses" ... Aren't they the very people you claim were conned and lied to into voting leave and the very same folk you insinuated were of lower intelligence than the remain voters ... Surely you should have sympathy for those who can't see through the lies as they are simply too thick ???

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Guest pelmetman
John52 - 2017-06-10 3:59 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-06-10 1:10 PM

We don't need to deal with 27 other countries ;-) .

 

What if one of them decides to use its veto to block it *-)

 

Suits me B-) ........Coz I like my BREXIT well hard :D .........

 

 

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antony1969 - 2017-06-10 6:16 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 2:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-06-10 11:19 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 10:06 AM

 

 

 

......................................................... Brexit that got us into this mess and the only reason your beloved Theresa also called a snap election.

 

Thats what happens when you do bonkers things like Brexit and letting the public decide, it has a habit of blowing up in your face.

 

/QUOTE]

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

malc.d

 

 

What a short memory you have Barry.

 

Brexit is 100% David Camerons fault - you can't put put all the blame on voters.

 

 

;-)

 

Yes I should have included him, UKIP and the far right Tories that also pressurised Cameron into holding the referendum in the first place. Ultimately they are to blame. I will have little sympathy for any of them when it all goes sour though, especially those in repressed areas that voted out in their masses who will be the first to complain when they have no jobs, money, food or houses.

 

You have no sympathy for those in "repressed areas that voted out in their masses" ... Aren't they the very people you claim were conned and lied to into voting leave and the very same folk you insinuated were of lower intelligence than the remain voters ... Surely you should have sympathy for those who can't see through the lies as they are simply too thick ???

 

Dunno where these repressed areas are? :-S ........Had to spend 60 quid extra on the campsite coz the skip company were too busy to remove the skip where we park the camper :'( .......

 

Our builders are working weekends to fit us in, there's a shortage of Kingspan at the builders merchants *-) .......

PLC UK from where I'm sitting is working its frigging balls off >:-) .........Including me, but I ain't getting paid 8-) .......

 

 

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pelmetman - 2017-06-10 6:35 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-10 6:16 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 2:01 PM

 

malc d - 2017-06-10 11:19 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-06-10 10:06 AM

 

 

 

......................................................... Brexit that got us into this mess and the only reason your beloved Theresa also called a snap election.

 

Thats what happens when you do bonkers things like Brexit and letting the public decide, it has a habit of blowing up in your face.

 

/QUOTE]

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

malc.d

 

 

What a short memory you have Barry.

 

Brexit is 100% David Camerons fault - you can't put put all the blame on voters.

 

 

;-)

 

Yes I should have included him, UKIP and the far right Tories that also pressurised Cameron into holding the referendum in the first place. Ultimately they are to blame. I will have little sympathy for any of them when it all goes sour though, especially those in repressed areas that voted out in their masses who will be the first to complain when they have no jobs, money, food or houses.

 

You have no sympathy for those in "repressed areas that voted out in their masses" ... Aren't they the very people you claim were conned and lied to into voting leave and the very same folk you insinuated were of lower intelligence than the remain voters ... Surely you should have sympathy for those who can't see through the lies as they are simply too thick ???

 

Dunno where these repressed areas are? :-S ........Had to spend 60 quid extra on the campsite coz the skip company were too busy to remove the skip where we park the camper :'( .......

 

Our builders are working weekends to fit us in, there's a shortage of Kingspan at the builders merchants *-) .......

PLC UK from where I'm sitting is working its frigging balls off >:-) .........Including me, but I ain't getting paid 8-) .......

 

 

Repressed goes with Barrys idea of GB at the minute ... Just like his multicultural , multi faith view of GB that he loves so much ... As long as its not in his whites only village and surrounding areas though , bit too close to home then

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Replying to the OPs question "Put Brexit on hold for a while" ... Why , the country has with over 80% of the vote just voted for two parties who according to them are committed to leaving the EU ... Had Faggot been so appealing with his 2nd referendum cods then he'd be PM now would he not
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antony1969 - 2017-06-10 7:13 PM

 

Replying to the OPs question "Put Brexit on hold for a while" ... Why , the country has with over 80% of the vote just voted for two parties who according to them are committed to leaving the EU ... Had Faggot been so appealing with his 2nd referendum cods then he'd be PM now would he not

I think both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn are better leaders than their parties have had for a very long time. Hence the high turnout.

Wheras the Liberals have not been forgiven for getting into bed with the Tories.

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Brian, I understand and agree with what you say but for the next to the bottom paragraph >>>

 

"But, you do have to ask yourself why it is that Germany has that well oiled manufacturing sector, that provides such high employment, and provides good incomes for so many, while we do not. The answer to that, is the main reason I think Brexit will prove a profound mistake".

 

They got that well oiled manufacturing sector because of the money thrown at them by the Marshall Plan after WW2. Our manufacturing plant was decimated and had to try to match their ultra modern machinery and factories. We were up to our necks in debt to the USA which was not paid off until 31st December 2006......61yrs after the end of WW2, and we never paid our WW1 debt off to the USA.

 

And here again, what we gave them and later ended up being very generous to them, when we were barely in any financial position to do so>>>>

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/781613/Brexit-news-Article-50-talks-EU-exit-fee-50billion-Sir-Bill-Cash-Germany-war-debt-WW2

 

Then there is this>>>>

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/18/who-still-owes-what-for-the-two-world-wars.html

 

So Brian, no wonder they are where they are.

 

'Old Sage' was written out of respect ;-D , something akin to the like of, the Father of the House in Parliment, Kenneth Clark, because you seemed to have been a forum member an awful long time and deserve recognition. ;-)

 

Dave (young Sage)

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