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Sally Clark R.I.P


chas

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Guest starspirit

Type Sally Clark into Google.

 

Scientists and experts eh?

 

Would you trust them with your life?

 

Another merging of science and percieved political correctness perhaps?

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I may be shot down in flames for this - and I agree that I am being a bit "trite" - especially as what happened to this poor woman and her family is mind-bogglingly awful - but what has been said above about certain scientists (those that have an agenda in the main) is so true.

 

Prof Roy Meadows was so certain he was right and so pompous that he basically fiddled the figures to prove his case. Result? – several women in jail due to dubious science.

 

He should indeed hang his head in shame for the rest of his life. At least he has one. Sadly Sally Clark found it impossible to live hers after this arrogant SOB destroyed hers.

 

On another thread there is ample evidence that other "scientists" (IPCC) have sold their soul to the various grant committees in order to stay on their particular gravy train.

 

Sorry for migrating off topic on this last point but Sally Clark’s situation should be a lesson to us all on how independent and equitable scientists can be.

 

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Life is a learning curve so I don't believe anyone is an 'expert'. There are those that know a little more about a subject than I do but I am always ready to quibble. People still seemed awed by 'experts' be they solicitors, doctors, vets ......... anyone that has been to College seems to overwhelm those at ground level.

 

It's a very sad case. I so feel for the family and those of Angela Canning .....

 

Having worked in the NHS I have seen pompous staff at all levels ........ but I haven't met any 'experts' because I don't recognise the title.

 

Slightly OT - I don't believe in the Jury system either .......

 

:'(

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Certainly agree with you on the "experts" but would still prefer to be "judged" by 12 people rather than a so called expert.

 

However, some of the complicated cases that have fallen over of late due to the jury not really understanding the complexity is most certainly an issue.

 

Whilst I do not know the answer, the thought of these "experts" deciding ones fate (which is what this government tried to do) fills me with horror.

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CliveH - 2007-03-19 12:58 PM

 

Certainly agree with you on the "experts" but would still prefer to be "judged" by 12 people rather than a so called expert.

 

However, some of the complicated cases that have fallen over of late due to the jury not really understanding the complexity is most certainly an issue.

 

Whilst I do not know the answer, the thought of these "experts" deciding ones fate (which is what this government tried to do) fills me with horror.

 

Another problem with all these so-called experts is their inability / refusal to explain their subject in simple English. If you can't explain what you're doing to the twelve men and true - then you shouldn't be called as an expert witness.

 

B-)

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As someone who has to explain difficult technical issues to others I do have some sympathy for the "expert" in that some are not good communicators.

 

One of my clients is a real boffin - a great chap - but sometimes not on this planet. His boss described him to me as the typically absent minded Professor who when visiting a urinal, undoes his flies, takes out his tie, and pisses in his pants.

 

He has real difficulty understanding anything outside of his frame of reference let alone explaining it to anyone else. So even a reasonable person who is "expert" in their own field can have difficulty outside it.

 

One option I think would work in complex cases is to select jurors who have a level of expertise in the relevant area. In particular for example the complex financial crimes that come up from time to time should have some jurors who have been or are Accountants, IFA's, Financial Directors etc.

 

Similarly, in medical cases a proportion of jurors should be selected from the medical profession, Nurses and Technicians.

 

What do people think?

 

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Having sat as a juror recently on a kiddy fiddling case and had to endure all the garbage that is spieled out by so called ex spurts it has left me very scared of our legal system. The police & cps seem concerned with getting a conviction only which in this case would not have been justice, the only bit of common sense in that court room was the jury and possibly the judge, but he has to appear to be impartial. The idea of having accountants, F.D's. or I.F.A's as a jury in financial would probably not work, set a thief to catch a thief and all that, but have one qualified person on that jury to translate in to laymans terms might work providing that person has access to common sense.

Incidentally, we found the accused not guilty and he was not guilty from the second day of a six day case but we did not know what each jury member was thinking, the accused went through hell and back, lost his business and reputation because of this case but the people making these accusations walk away without cost.

I am considering becoming celebate because if I don't perform I might be acused of rape or something!!!

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I have also known many technically brilliant in their field people, who can't speak 'english'; they should not be brought into Courts as expert witnesses.

I would be very unhappy about bringing in 'expert' juries - and even to introducing 1 expert into the 12; there is no guarantee that they would be impartial and any more articulate than the ex spurts [like it :-> ] trotted out by the Prosecution / Defence.

 

Bring on Common Sense, pity that can't be taught - a few degrees in that would be useful. :->

 

B-)

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Hello Clive,

You did indeed say the right thing when you said Meadows (no longer worthy of the title professor) should hang his head in shame. He and that person who persecuted the poor people in the Scottish Isles as pediatricians to their own children should both be properly hung. They have mentally destroyed peoples lives.

Regards, Mike

 

PS. I expect some flack from my views on capital punishment , but start another thread please. The memory of Sally Clark does not deserve any verbal arguments on here.

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Hi Sax

 

I agree with you sentiments entirely - but may I point out a mistake in that you state paediatrician when I think you mean paedophile.

 

The former is a Doctor who specialises in treating children and the later a sub-human who in my view, at the very least should be castrated - via a knife or chemically - it matters not.

 

I only mention it because there was an ugly scene in Portsmouth where the two words were confused and a totally innocent Doctor was targeted by a mob and had her house daubed with paint.

 

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Hello CliveH,

 

I beg to differ. The person involved was a female paediatrician/professor who, I believe worked on the mainland but brought heartbreak to families on the Scottish islands by having children taken from their homes and put into care. She was proved later to have totally wrongly accused certain parents as indecently assaulting their own children. I believe she no longer practices.

 

I am aware of the incident in Portsmouth and never mix the two words up.

Regards, Mike

 

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No worries Mike

 

The Scottish Isles situation was awful - again an expert devoid of any notion that they could be wrong.

 

But the Portsmouth situation was where a genuinely good Doctor had her house targeted simply because she was listed in the local directory as a Paediatrician. It seems some just went on the first four letters and nothing else.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Been away from the Forum and came back to see this topic......just have a few words about it myself. Take care that those of you with wide sweeping generalisations about medics and those with "letters after their names" in general don't become just as guilty as Roy Meadows et al.

 

When not motorhoming or online on motorhome forums I am one of the apparently despised category - namely, a medico-legal expert. And no, it doesn't matter if anyone "doesn't recognise" the expert connotation - the important thing is that the law does. I have given thousands of court reports / evidence in many many cases and I AM PROUD OF MY CAREER THUS FAR. Just as all doctors are not Shipman in disguise, so we are not all of the same ilk as Roy Meadows et al.

 

What happened to Sally Clark, Angela Cannings and thousands of other women was despicable - as was the reaction of the establishment (the law lords) who overturned the GMC decision to strike Roy Meadow from the medical register. Try to maintain a balanced view on the situation though - there are 100s of expert witnesses who do NOT behave as he and his cronies did - tarring us all with the same brush is ridiculous, unfair and unnecessary, as well as being bigoted and, dare I say it, with a touch of the little green man about it with remarks like "the letters after your name" meaning nothing. I've worked hard to develop a distinguished and successful career and I am not going to stand back and see it rubbished by people who don't know what they are talking about, whether this is a recreational forum or not!

 

 

 

 

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Guest Frank Wilkinson

Well said Caradoc. I've stayed out of this particular thread and its 'lynch mob' mentality. I have exactly the same problems with a few people on this site who seem to think that all businessmen must be rogues, with 'their noses in the trough' as someone remarked earlier.

And this from people who talk of 'ex spurts' and who've not exactly achieved a great deal in their own lives.

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Caradoc,

seems it was me whom upset you ? not intended should of thought more about what i put . however good and bad in all walks of life .

no one said you didn't work hard to get your letters but then as you say proud of your profession so you should be .

However this guy got it so wrong with so many peoples lives?

Wonder why he wasn't stopped before not challenged .

I worked for Gp & consultants for years and have the utmost respect

For this guy not alot.

Next time I will put what brain I have in gear... :$

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carrodoc

 

To me you come across as rather arrogant. Precisely what some on here felt that Prof Meadows was guilty of. If you really feel that you have to defend YOUR position on a recreational forum then I think I pity you.

 

Your credentials, whatever they are, were never criticised.

 

But those "experts" who have made mistakes and ruined innocent peoples lives were.

 

For you to take it personally and react from an emotional standpoint I prey to god I will never require or be subject to your expertise in a court of law.

 

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Guest Frank Wilkinson
CliveH - 2007-03-31 10:04 AM carrodoc To me you come across as rather arrogant. Precisely what some on here felt that Prof Meadows was guilty of. If you really feel that you have to defend YOUR position on a recreational forum then I think I pity you. Your credentials, whatever they are, were never criticised. But those "experts" who have made mistakes and ruined innocent peoples lives were. For you to take it personally and react from an emotional standpoint I prey to god I will never require or be subject to your expertise in a court of law.

If there's arrogance here it's yours. Caradoc was defending his profession and those who traduce all professionals, without thinking for one minute that what's been discussed here is one of a tiny minority of errors that occur. And as for 'pitying him' what appalling condescension! Although I suppose that you've never made a mistake in your working life so naturally, you are now free to condemn all of those who have.

I say again that there is a lynch mob mentality amongst people who themselves often have I.Q.s in double digits. As an example take the case mentioned above about the paediatrician who was hounded from her home by people who thought that her title meant someone who abused children.

The next time any of you get a serious illness, or need expert legal help, try asking your mates down the pub. You shouldn't be buggering about with any of these so-called experts!

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