The Brexit Blog

[Bulletguy]

 

Irrespective of which side of the fence you sit, this is a thought provoking read for all.

 

Brexiters would have been much happier if they had lost

 

From the start, the approach of Brexiters both within and outside of government has been confrontational, defensive and angry, often, as I have written before, acting as if Britain were being expelled from the EU rather than choosing to leave. Whenever any consequence of leaving emerges – the possibility of a charge for visas being a recent trivial example; the need for a border in Ireland being an ongoing important one – they cry punishment. Even, as with Gibraltar, they talk of war. None of that would make sense if Brexiters were confident, happy winners of a great prize; all of it makes sense if they are a protest movement, in love with a sense of put-upon victimhood, fearful of – to coin a phrase – taking back control.

 

In less than a year, Britain will (almost certainly) be a third country to the EU. That will have huge consequences – economic, cultural, geo-political, strategic – affecting everything from mobile roaming charges to national security. Every single one of those consequences will be negative for almost every person in Britain.

 

It is small comfort that Brexiters will suffer the additional consequence of having to take responsibility for that; none at all, in fact, since they will certainly not do so, but will try to blame everyone but themselves for what they have inflicted on us. Few will feel sympathy for the fact that they would have been far happier had they lost.

 

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/brexiters-would-have-been-much-happier.html

[Barryd999]

I am not sure that most Brexiteers would have been happier to have lost but they certainly dont seem to be have been that happy recently with the progress or lack of it. Of course I think for many it was a protest vote or a vote to "Stick it to the man" or to finally stick it to the EU that they see thanks to years of drip feeding crap from the Pro Brexit media as the cause of all their and the countries problems.

 

The trouble with that last reason is once its gone and it becomes blatantly apparent that actually it wasn't the EUs fault all along that things were a bit crappy it was our Governments or maybe the people themselves they will be looking at something or somebody new to kick.

 

I honestly believe however if there was another referendum based on what we know now and there was another campaign, Remain would win it by miles. Certainly by much more than the polls are suggesting. Vote Leave would have nothing to say as everything they said in the first referendum has been completely exposed as rubbish or just complete finger in the air blind hope.

 

I honestly think if we reversed Brexit most people would just be relieved.

[Brian Kirby]

I'm not so confident about either. IMO, the remain campaign was rubbish, and lacked serious focus. It relied far too much on trying to find optimistic forecasts in favour of remain, instead of knocking down the hot air, uncorroborated, assertions of the Brexiters about how easily, quickly, and beneficially Brexit would be achieved.

 

If the two above hopes are to be realised, there will have to be a remain campaign that does its homework (which should be far easier now than it was in the run-up to the referendum, because so many of the flaws and myths in the Brexiters' arguments have in the meantime been exposed as fairy dust), and exposes the bogus claims for what they were - while presenting a much clearer and more confident view of Britain within the EU.

 

That campaign needs to start now (indeed, should already be in full swing), and should continue non-stop until either the Article 50 notice is withdrawn, or we have irrevocably left.

 

It hasn't, and it doesn't look as though it is going to until after the negotiations are completed, which, it is abundantly clear, is being stage managed to leave insufficient time to mount a remain campaign.

 

Those wanting to campaign to reverse the referendum decision are nowhere visible, and seem to me to be acting as though they have ample time to begin to act. They don't: the clock already stands at 10 to midnight - and is still ticking. It is hugely frustrating.

[Bulletguy]

 

I feel there is an air of resignation at watching car crash tv in motion as government blunders from one mess into another. Quite how any sane person can be so blase and cock-a-hoop with glee at plunging the country headlong into an abyss, is beyond me.

[Barryd999]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-06 5:13 PM

 

I'm not so confident about either. IMO, the remain campaign was rubbish, and lacked serious focus. It relied far too much on trying to find optimistic forecasts in favour of remain, instead of knocking down the hot air, uncorroborated, assertions of the Brexiters about how easily, quickly, and beneficially Brexit would be achieved.

 

If the two above hopes are to be realised, there will have to be a remain campaign that does its homework (which should be far easier now than it was in the run-up to the referendum, because so many of the flaws and myths in the Brexiters' arguments have in the meantime been exposed as fairy dust), and exposes the bogus claims for what they were - while presenting a much clearer and more confident view of Britain within the EU.

 

That campaign needs to start now (indeed, should already be in full swing), and should continue non-stop until either the Article 50 notice is withdrawn, or we have irrevocably left.

 

It hasn't, and it doesn't look as though it is going to until after the negotiations are completed, which, it is abundantly clear, is being stage managed to leave insufficient time to mount a remain campaign.

 

Those wanting to campaign to reverse the referendum decision are nowhere visible, and seem to me to be acting as though they have ample time to begin to act. They don't: the clock already stands at 10 to midnight - and is still ticking. It is hugely frustrating.

 

The various Remain groups have consolidated though Brian in the campaign for the "Peoples Vote" and there is a big march planned for June. https://www.peoples-vote.uk/march

 

There just isnt much coverage though and the majority of folk have switched off from Brexit. The hard line Brexiteers would like to keep it that way so they can slip in any kind of Brexit as along as its still called Brexit it seems which is bonkers. There was the biggest national survey ever a week or two ago with over 200000 participants across the nation which proved that Brexiteers were now in a minority and without doubt that there is no desire for a hard Brexit with 20% of actual leave voters now wanting to stay in the single market. Did the major Rags cover it? Nope. Not a sniff.

 

The only way we will get a chance to show Brexit for what it is and get the public back onside is if the Government agrees to a public vote or a second referendum and everyone engages again. Vote Leave would get hammered now.

[Archiesgrandad]

...and if your tooth falls out you should put it under your pillow where the Tooth Fairy will exchange it for a £ coin, and whilst you're at it you should start planning your letter to Santa, you can't start too early.

 

AGD

[Tracker]

There are few things more pointless than remoaners telling brexiteers how they feel, or how they should feel in the opinion of the remoaners, and it is very wearing seeing the same old same old over and over again with the same old dreary words in a slightly different order, if you are lucky, nothing new, just remoaning on and on ad nauseus infinitum.

 

It's enough to make anyone want to leave the EU!

 

 

[antony1969]

More The Brexit Bore ... Bore on sad wet drips

[Barryd999]

Typical Brexiteer responses though, you find it boring but cant help responding with just micky taking insults. Gone are the days when you had something constructive to say or about how great its all going to be because you know fine well we are in a proper pickle but would of course never admit it publicly. I suspect in a voting booth many though quietly would.

[Tracker]

Barryd999 - 2018-05-06 9:22 PM

 

I suspect in a voting booth many though quietly would.

 

 

Suspect all you like Barry, it makes no difference, we are where we are with this and no ammount of huffing and puffing by anyone will make one iota of difference to the outcome, so we will all just have to wait and see.

[Barryd999]

Tracker - 2018-05-06 10:06 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-05-06 9:22 PM

 

I suspect in a voting booth many though quietly would.

 

 

Suspect all you like Barry, it makes no difference, we are where we are with this and no ammount of huffing and puffing by anyone will make one iota of difference to the outcome, so we will all just have to wait and see.

 

How do you think we got here in the first place Rich? By a lot of huffing and puffing and campaigning for a referendum. If people did nothing or never huffed and puffed how would anyone in Government know what people wanted? We have been told for over two years that we cant change anything but public opinion has shaped Brexit. Thanks to people like Gina Miller Parliament and rightly so are now very much going to be involved. The only people that can put the brakes on Brexit now are the people by persuading the nation to think again and force a new public vote. Its an uphill struggle of course but if peoples opinions change and they will if they re-engage the Government will have to listen. I doubt this will be over for some time sadly even if we do leave.

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2018-05-06 10:06 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-05-06 9:22 PM

 

I suspect in a voting booth many though quietly would.

 

 

Suspect all you like Barry, it makes no difference, we are where we are with this and no ammount of huffing and puffing by anyone will make one iota of difference to the outcome, so we will all just have to wait and see.

Except we don't 'have to' at all. And this guy does know what he's talking about......because he helped draft Article 50.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/nov/10/brexit-reversible-says-lord-kerr-who-wrote-article-50-video

 

 

[antony1969]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ..... Zzzzzzzzz .... zzz . Zzzzzzzzz

[Guest pelmetman]

Just 326 days of Remoaner whinging and whining to go *-) .........

 

https://interactive.news.sky.com/2017/brexit-countdown/

 

B-) .........

 

 

[Tracker]

Bulletguy - 2018-05-06 11:56 PM

Except we don't 'have to' at all. And this guy does know what he's talking about......because he helped draft Article 50.

 

Except he ain't PM and the national vote majority was to leave the EU and I still don't see how moaning and selective quoting of other peoples opinions on here will change anything.

 

Perhaps I missed your name on the ballot papers, or do you only feel strongly enough to make everyone on here's life monotonous but not motivated enough to democratically publicly stand up for your ideas?

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2018-05-07 4:35 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-05-06 11:56 PM

Except we don't 'have to' at all. And this guy does know what he's talking about......because he helped draft Article 50.

 

Except he ain't PM and the national vote majority was to leave the EU and I still don't see how moaning and selective quoting of other peoples opinions on here will change anything.

 

Perhaps I missed your name on the ballot papers, or do you only feel strongly enough to make everyone on here's life monotonous but not motivated enough to democratically publicly stand up for your ideas?

The PM chose to hide the fact about Article 50 being reversible which Kerr brought to public attention. But then everyone knows May hides a lot of things she doesn't want the public to know. Don't you believe the electorate deserve open transparency and honesty?

 

You talk about 'democracy' as though it's a 'one way street' where only Brexiters are allowed and those who voted Remain should just go away and shut up. That's not very democratic is it?

[Tracker]

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 6:06 PM

You talk about 'democracy' as though it's a 'one way street' where only Brexiters are allowed and those who voted Remain should just go away and shut up. That's not very democratic is it?

 

I am not a Brexiteer, although I do believe in a better long term future for the UK out rather than in and, your own form of 'democracy' where you are right and everyone who disagrees with you and what you say, sorry cut and paste link to, is wrong does seem to me very much like a 'one way street'.

[Guest pelmetman]

Tracker - 2018-05-07 6:12 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 6:06 PM

You talk about 'democracy' as though it's a 'one way street' where only Brexiters are allowed and those who voted Remain should just go away and shut up. That's not very democratic is it?

 

I am not a Brexiteer, although I do believe in a better long term future for the UK out rather than in and, your own form of 'democracy' where you are right and everyone who disagrees with you and what you say, sorry cut and paste link to, is wrong does seem to me very much like a 'one way street'.

 

Like it or not Rich ;-) .........

 

You are :D ..........

 

Just as not as belligerent as me (lol) .......

 

 

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2018-05-07 6:12 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 6:06 PM

You talk about 'democracy' as though it's a 'one way street' where only Brexiters are allowed and those who voted Remain should just go away and shut up. That's not very democratic is it?

 

I am not a Brexiteer....

Are you sure about that??!!! 8-) I've never seen you post anything to indicate you have an affinity with Remain.....only ever the absolute opposite!

 

 

......although I do believe in a better long term future for the UK out rather than in and, your own form of 'democracy' where you are right and everyone who disagrees with you and what you say, sorry cut and paste link to, is wrong does seem to me very much like a 'one way street'.

Oh yes i forgot you mentioned you are a "wait and see'er" type of Brexiter. In other words a fence sitter who should anything pro-Brexit turn up rosy you will dance up and down, but anything not going too good...as like now, you will blame Remainers for it.

 

Funny for someone 'not a Brexiteer'! (lol)

[Tracker]

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 9:01 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-05-07 6:12 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 6:06 PM

You talk about 'democracy' as though it's a 'one way street' where only Brexiters are allowed and those who voted Remain should just go away and shut up. That's not very democratic is it?

 

I am not a Brexiteer....

Are you sure about that??!!! 8-) I've never seen you post anything to indicate you have an affinity with Remain.....only ever the absolute opposite!

 

 

......although I do believe in a better long term future for the UK out rather than in and, your own form of 'democracy' where you are right and everyone who disagrees with you and what you say, sorry cut and paste link to, is wrong does seem to me very much like a 'one way street'.

Oh yes i forgot you mentioned you are a "wait and see'er" type of Brexiter. In other words a fence sitter who should anything pro-Brexit turn up rosy you will dance up and down, but anything not going too good...as like now, you will blame Remainers for it.

 

Funny for someone 'not a Brexiteer'! (lol)

 

I have never blamed remoaners for anything, as you should know being the forum expert on silly accusations tailored to suit your own views at the time.

The reason for that is really very simples - remoaners only moan - they have no influence or impact on any decisions by anyone in power so it is pointless to moan at remoaners - other than to wind them up.

I don't post anything of affinity with remoaners for the equally simple reason that I don't have any affinity with you.

Neither do I have any affinity with Brexiteers as you all spout a load of old spherical objects and selective cut and pastes.

I have my own views that the UK would be better off out of the EU in the long term, just how much better, or worse off we will be in the short term depends to a large degree on the two faced bigot Michel Barnier and his cronies that seem hell bent on punishing the UK for having the temerity to poke two fingers at him and his crooked and corrupt union that has deviated so far from the common market that we last had the opportunity to join all those years ago.

By the way, I'm not asking you to' go away and shut up' as you put it - either one of the two will sufice please!

[Barryd999]

Why do you have that opinion of Bariner Rich? The EU stated their position long before the vote and have stuck to their guns throughout. I Dont see that being two faced. The Brexiteers of course assumed they were bluffing and would bend over backwards for us to do a deal because they need us more than we need them. Clearly not. The only people that have bent over backwards have been our negotiators. How you ever expect these people to bring in these fantastic trade deals from God Knows where I have no idea.

 

Actually the clever people behind Brexit probably knew the EU would not budge on the four freedoms for single market and customs union access and free trade but went along with it as its the last thing they want anyway.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-05-07 10:25 PM

 

Actually the clever people behind Brexit probably knew the EU would not budge on the four freedoms for single market and customs union access and free trade but went along with it as its the last thing they want anyway.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/europes-biggest-brexit-fear-that-well-flourish-outside-the-eu/

 

" he says, there is also a fear stalking the corridors of power in Germany and elsewhere. What if we flourish outside the EU? The Swedish politician I quoted told me that the editor of a top Swedish newspaper had said to her that if in five to ten years’ time Britain is doing fine, Sweden will probably leave, too. The EU will become the eurozone plus an outer ring of associated countries.

 

Maybe Britain is the canary in the mine, says Buchsteiner. ‘You have often been right in the past from Henry VIII to the decision to challenge Hitler. Perhaps, once again, you are seeing the future more clearly.’"

 

:D .........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

Tracker - 2018-05-07 9:57 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 9:01 PM

 

Tracker - 2018-05-07 6:12 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 6:06 PM

You talk about 'democracy' as though it's a 'one way street' where only Brexiters are allowed and those who voted Remain should just go away and shut up. That's not very democratic is it?

 

I am not a Brexiteer....

Are you sure about that??!!! 8-) I've never seen you post anything to indicate you have an affinity with Remain.....only ever the absolute opposite!

 

 

......although I do believe in a better long term future for the UK out rather than in and, your own form of 'democracy' where you are right and everyone who disagrees with you and what you say, sorry cut and paste link to, is wrong does seem to me very much like a 'one way street'.

Oh yes i forgot you mentioned you are a "wait and see'er" type of Brexiter. In other words a fence sitter who should anything pro-Brexit turn up rosy you will dance up and down, but anything not going too good...as like now, you will blame Remainers for it.

 

Funny for someone 'not a Brexiteer'! (lol)

 

I have my own views that the UK would be better off out of the EU in the long term, just how much better, or worse off we will be in the short term depends to a large degree on the two faced bigot Michel Barnier and his cronies that seem hell bent on punishing the UK for having the temerity to poke two fingers at him and his crooked and corrupt union that has deviated so far from the common market that we last had the opportunity to join all those years ago.

So a Brexiteer in all but name! ;-) Your venomous attack on the EU suggests you don't want any part of it at all. Looks like you're going to be disappointed as May has already done yet another u-turn on EU immigration with visa free travel and the right to work and remain here.

 

Errm......that's 'freedom of movement'! ;-)

 

https://www.ft.com/content/701b5bac-1d4c-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6

 

And only a fool would be prepared to renege on the Good Friday agreement over Ireland so that's looking likely to remain an open border. Oooerrr.....what happened to all this "taking our country back" stuff? Isn't going too well is it? And what's more.....we get to fork out £40 odd billion of having back pretty much what we had before.......but this time having no say in any future dealings.

 

The EU may not have been picture postcard perfect (what is?), but you never 'fix' something by running away from it. We had a say in matters before.....Brexit voted to stop that and run off. And so far they've yet to show anything they promised during their madcap campaign. They had 'ideas' and some pretty crazy and wild 'promises'.....but no exit plan.

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2018-05-07 10:25 PM

 

Why do you have that opinion of Bariner Rich? The EU stated their position long before the vote and have stuck to their guns throughout. I Dont see that being two faced. ................................

Because, like an awful lot of other people, Rich took the government of the day at face value in 1973 when we joined, and believed that EEC (European Economic Community) correctly translated into English as "Common Market". They took that to mean that was all it was, that it had always been a "Common Market", and would always remain just a "Common Market". History, both of the EEC before we joined, and since, proves those views misplaced.

 

There is also the second, equally widely canvassed myth, that leaving the EEC would be easy. That, too, as widely predicted by others, has so far proved wrong.

 

Clearly someone has to be to blame for these misjudgements and, as Barnier is the present incumbent, he gets the blame. Simples! :-D

[derek pringle]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-08 7:55 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-05-07 10:25 PM

 

Why do you have that opinion of Bariner Rich? The EU stated their position long before the vote and have stuck to their guns throughout. I Dont see that being two faced. ................................

Because, like an awful lot of other people, Rich took the government of the day at face value in 1973 when we joined, and believed that EEC (European Economic Community) correctly translated into English as "Common Market". They took that to mean that was all it was, that it had always been a "Common Market", and would always remain just a "Common Market". History, both of the EEC before we joined, and since, proves those views misplaced.

 

There is also the second, equally widely canvassed myth, that leaving the EEC would be easy. That, too, as widely predicted by others, has so far proved wrong.

 

Clearly someone has to be to blame for these misjudgements and, as Barnier is the present incumbent, he gets the blame. Simples! :-D

Hi Brian,

I agree but feel where we went wrong was not leaving when the EU started changing from Common Market to a State. For years we have not had the same currency, so not fully aligned and not part of some of the financial planning plus we have always been against the ECJ. It seems it was always going to go further in unification than some would like and ice we would have had the referendum then we would have been less up to our knees than we are now in being able to negotiate the way out. This is a negotiation and as such no side will offer things but we need to be more defined [well mrs May does ] in EXACTLY what we want or our position. The Customs Control she is after has not even been costed yet but we know will mean a huge chunk of bureaucracy to implement coupled with a huge cost.All things like this will make a big difference to what our savings are envisaged to be as a result of leaving. For or against a final vote it seems to me more and more necessary as time goes on BUT I would prefer the nation to vote than just Parliament.

cheers

derek