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the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
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userTracker
Posted: 16 February 2019 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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This stupid childish prattle of repasting yards of repeats to add a one line response is stupid and childish - deliberate repeat - and is contributing towards making this forum so unattractive to many people and you should be ashamed of your own stupid and childish point scoring attempts.
Grow up.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-13 8:57 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-13 8:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM...…………..
We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market ......…

It is strange that such a serious minded and precocious youth failed to read the papers in 1973, and remained unaware of the nature of the European Economic Community (AKA the Common Market), it origins, and the changes it had already made. We did join, though, so what was the actual lie? Could that now mature youth point to it?


That precocious youth has become a belligerent Brexiteer after 46 years experience of EU membership ...........

So there was no lie: you were told you could join a Common Market, and you did.

Edited by Brian Kirby 2019-02-16 2:51 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-14 4:43 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!


I doubt the Russians saw it that way Brian?

Left hand down a bit!

Yes, but I bet the Ukrainians did! It'd be like telling a Welshman that Wales is part of England, wouldn't it? I'll get me own coat!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-14 5:57 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

In 1976 it was part of the Soviet Union which was commonly referred to as "Russia" Brian .........
From wiki......
"Nominally a union of multiple national Soviet republics, its government and economy were highly centralized. The country was a one-party state, governed by the Communist Party with Moscow as its capital in its largest republic, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (Russian SFSR)."
Judging by Putin's actions he intends to make it part of Russia again .........

Also from Wiki, but on Ukraine:

"The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture, with the powerful state of Kievan Rus' forming the basis of Ukrainian identity. Following its fragmentation in the 13th century, the territory was contested, ruled and divided by a variety of powers, including Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. A Cossack republic emerged and prospered during the 17th and 18th centuries, but its territory was eventually split between Poland and the Russian Empire, and finally merged fully into the Russian-dominated Soviet Union in the late 1940s as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. In 1991 Ukraine gained its independence from the Soviet Union in the aftermath of its dissolution at the end of the Cold War. Before its independence, Ukraine was typically referred to in English as "The Ukraine", but most sources have since moved to drop "the" from the name of Ukraine in all uses."

So, even under the USSR it retained its name, as in "the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic", but never Russia. Just depends when you count from, doesn't it?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-15 7:08 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM
Coz as we can see from Venezuela they can even f*ck up a oil rich country .......

Commies and lefties are not proud - they will screw up any country whilst they feather their own comfy corners - it just takes a bit longer to show when they start with national wealth as their source, before screwing theier own population - and it is unfotunate that the freedom of thought and speech that undemocratic Britain enjoys is often one of the first casualties.

Here is a Wiki link: http://tinyurl.com/yyhftjd3

It is a long piece, that I found fascinating, as so many of the stated reasons behind Brexit chime with me.

It also seems relevant to the title of this string, as what it is really pointing out is how much our democracy has been quietly eroded over the years.

Some of the links are also interesting, especially that to Migration Watch, where you should find a chart showing how newspaper articles have linked words together in articles over the years: for example continually associating "migrant" with "illegal", so that the pairing creates a sub-conscious assumption that the one invariably implies the other.

If you have the stamina, have a read.

I would also add that the unstated message I took from the whole piece is that in relationship to the political views above, it is not just the "commies and lefties" who are good at screwing up countries. We might be wise to look closer to home, and to recognise the role played by good old fashioned right wing "laissez faire" politics in achieving the same end. See what you think.
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 2:50 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 5:57 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

In 1976 it was part of the Soviet Union which was commonly referred to as "Russia" Brian .........
From wiki......
"Nominally a union of multiple national Soviet republics, its government and economy were highly centralized. The country was a one-party state, governed by the Communist Party with Moscow as its capital in its largest republic, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (Russian SFSR)."
Judging by Putin's actions he intends to make it part of Russia again .........

Also from Wiki, but on Ukraine:

"The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture, with the powerful state of Kievan Rus' forming the basis of Ukrainian identity. Following its fragmentation in the 13th century, the territory was contested, ruled and divided by a variety of powers, including Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. A Cossack republic emerged and prospered during the 17th and 18th centuries, but its territory was eventually split between Poland and the Russian Empire, and finally merged fully into the Russian-dominated Soviet Union in the late 1940s as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. In 1991 Ukraine gained its independence from the Soviet Union in the aftermath of its dissolution at the end of the Cold War. Before its independence, Ukraine was typically referred to in English as "The Ukraine", but most sources have since moved to drop "the" from the name of Ukraine in all uses."

So, even under the USSR it retained its name, as in "the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic", but never Russia. Just depends when you count from, doesn't it?

Had he visited Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria or GDR in the 70's i'm sure he'd still claim to have "been in" Russia!
userageingandrew
Posted: 16 February 2019 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:02 PM

ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!


Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

Vote Leave and BeLeave were running funding through different accounts, similar to money laundering if you like, and BeLeave spent more than £675,000 with Aggregate IQ under a common plan with Vote Leave. Aggregate IQ is a Canadian company so there's your evidence of 'foreign interference' straight away, part of which was the web intertwined through Cambridge Analytica and SCL.

False declarations were made and that's electoral fraud. You really should have a listen to Chris Whylie's testimony to MP's. Don't be fooled by his outward appearance, that guy worked with CA as a data consultant and is extremely articulate and intelligent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5g6IJm7YJQ&t=19m58s

I'm amazed anyone can still bury their heads over this as the evidence has long been out in the public domain that the Leave campaign actions were a subversion of democracy and quite how anyone can be comfortable with that, i've no idea. As with most Brexiteers you mention "the win" which sadly, appears to be of more importance than valuing and ensuring lawful democracy.


Aggregate IQ/Cambridge Analytics supplied a data analytics service to the Leave campaign, you cannot make a claim of “foreign interference” just because they are based in Canada. They were contracted to provide a service for the legitimate Leave campaign. They provided targeted audience analysis and targeted messaging for the legitimate Leave campaign; a far less intrusive messaging campaign than the Government’s which was paid for with tax payers funds when they sent every household in the UK a blatant piece of pro-EU propaganda advising us to vote to remain.

No-one is burying their heads, we can all see what happened and see the dirty tricks used by both sides during the referendum campaign including the “punishment budget” we were all threatened with, the loss of 50,000 jobs straight away and many, many more vile threats designed to browbeat us and frighten us to vote to remain.

Just because you believe fraud was committed does not make it a fact. The electoral commission does not recognise electoral fraud as having happened. The law broken by Leave was to exceed their spending limit, a limit that the electoral commission themselves had misinterpreted, and inaccuracies in reporting.

So many clearly want to believe that “we was robbed”; that democracy has been subverted. Neither of these things are true. In 2016 the UK held its greatest democratic exercise for more than 40 years. More people voted in the referendum than in pretty much any election in the past 40 years. Just because you don’t get what you want does not mean that democracy has been subverted.

The only subversion of democracy will be the UK not leaving the EU as voted on by the majority of UK voters.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM...…………….Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

So here's the thing. Brexit is hopelessly mired. It is clear that parliament has no majority for any solution to the referendum vote outcome. Therefore, what are the options?

A slim majority of the electorate voted to leave. A substantial minority voted remain.

Those who voted leave voted on the basis of a number of issues, principally national sovereignty, immigration, and border security.

Those who voted remain did so mainly on the basis of the damage to the UK economy that Brexit seemed most likely to cause.

In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.

But, how are those two conflicting views, the one backward looking, the other forward looking, to be reconciled via a compromise all can accept? On present evidence, no such compromise exists, and parliament is demonstrating that. We are stuck in limbo.

Our MPs are not themselves at risk from Brexit: most will retain their seats post Brexit, and of those who lose theirs, the majority will be employed by organisations that expect to benefit from their inside knowledge. Yet the majority of MPs, unaffected by such self-interest, think Brexit a mistake.

Their problem is that they have hooked themselves, first by agreeing to the referendum without thinking through its consequences and planning for a leave vote, again by agreeing to its binary, in-out format, and finally by agreeing to serve notice under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty before the government had presented a worked set of objectives for Brexit. They are all implicated, and all conflicted.

They want to carry out the democratic will of the electorate to leave the EU - while inflicting the minimum of damage on the UK economy. They see no version of Brexit that will benefit the UK economy, so are faced with a quest for the Holy Grail: a formula that satisfies the will to leave, while retaining all the economically beneficial aspects of remaining. To date, the Holy Grail has not been found. They all know that.

Theresa May's "deal" is only about leaving: it does not address UK's post Brexit relationship with the EU at all. All that remains to be negotiated during the transition period. But, that future deal is the most important element of Brexit.

A further referendum seems to me as likely to result in the same result as the first, or merely an equally narrow majority for remain. What then? Same parliament, same MPs. same quandary. No solution.

It is interesting that the leave vote came primarily from disadvantaged parts of the UK. From our northern industrial areas - now de-industrialised, from mining areas - now with no mines, from sea fishing areas - now with restricted quotas, from areas previously with few immigrants, now accommodating large numbers of eastern European migrants.

None of these grievances resulted from the EU, but from UK government failure, over many years, to cushion those areas from the economic and social disadvantages of uncontrolled globalisation, laissez faire politics, and unmanaged migration. They can be remedied by UK governments, but will not be remedied by Brexit - which will merely make that task more difficult.

So, having argued themselves to a standstill, and faced with the unwanted results of an ill-considered referendum that they cannot resolve, what should they do? Leave with no deal, which is almost universally held the most damaging outcome? Accept Theresa's flawed deal with the infamous backstop - to which I think there is no alternative solution? Switch to a Norway type deal with free movement, single market, and customs union? Seek an extension of time - which will probably not be granted?

Or pull the Article 50 notification against a cross party undertaking that those disadvantaged areas will become the first priority of all future governments until remedied, and then hold a further referendum when all areas of the UK can see EU membership through other than the distorting lens of social and economic deprivation.

Will we get to that point? Who knows, but it is at least possible. The eventual outcome, whatever it might be, will still disappoint some: that is inevitable. What it would avoid, however, is the perversity of inflicting economic damage on us all, in order to remedy problems that require a thriving economy to eradicate. Brexit is not fundamentally about the EU, it is about years of failed UK government policy. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?
usermalc d
Posted: 16 February 2019 5:48 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM


. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?



Good slogan indeed.

But who on earth would trust either major UK political party to honour it !

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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malc d - 2019-02-16 5:48 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM
. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?

Good slogan indeed.
But who on earth would trust either major UK political party to honour it !

Hobson's choice?
user747
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Instead of arguing about Brexit, why not (for a change) take a close look at the current state of the EU and try to work out what the future holds for it.

There is unrest in numerous member States (for a variety of reasons) and the EU leaders are doing a rerun of the 'Nero attitude' to unrest in the Camp.

It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU. It is called Demoocracy.
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:29 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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ageingandrew - 2019-02-16 5:09 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:02 PM

ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!


Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

Vote Leave and BeLeave were running funding through different accounts, similar to money laundering if you like, and BeLeave spent more than £675,000 with Aggregate IQ under a common plan with Vote Leave. Aggregate IQ is a Canadian company so there's your evidence of 'foreign interference' straight away, part of which was the web intertwined through Cambridge Analytica and SCL.

False declarations were made and that's electoral fraud. You really should have a listen to Chris Whylie's testimony to MP's. Don't be fooled by his outward appearance, that guy worked with CA as a data consultant and is extremely articulate and intelligent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5g6IJm7YJQ&t=19m58s

I'm amazed anyone can still bury their heads over this as the evidence has long been out in the public domain that the Leave campaign actions were a subversion of democracy and quite how anyone can be comfortable with that, i've no idea. As with most Brexiteers you mention "the win" which sadly, appears to be of more importance than valuing and ensuring lawful democracy.


Aggregate IQ/Cambridge Analytics supplied a data analytics service to the Leave campaign, you cannot make a claim of “foreign interference” just because they are based in Canada. They were contracted to provide a service for the legitimate Leave campaign. They provided targeted audience analysis and targeted messaging for the legitimate Leave campaign; a far less intrusive messaging campaign than the Government’s which was paid for with tax payers funds when they sent every household in the UK a blatant piece of pro-EU propaganda advising us to vote to remain.

No-one is burying their heads, we can all see what happened and see the dirty tricks used by both sides during the referendum campaign including the “punishment budget” we were all threatened with, the loss of 50,000 jobs straight away and many, many more vile threats designed to browbeat us and frighten us to vote to remain.

Just because you believe fraud was committed does not make it a fact. The electoral commission does not recognise electoral fraud as having happened. The law broken by Leave was to exceed their spending limit, a limit that the electoral commission themselves had misinterpreted, and inaccuracies in reporting.

So many clearly want to believe that “we was robbed”; that democracy has been subverted. Neither of these things are true. In 2016 the UK held its greatest democratic exercise for more than 40 years. More people voted in the referendum than in pretty much any election in the past 40 years. Just because you don’t get what you want does not mean that democracy has been subverted.

The only subversion of democracy will be the UK not leaving the EU as voted on by the majority of UK voters.

I suggest you hear out what Chris Wylie had to say who worked for Cambridge Analytica and gave a very thorough insight into the web CA was involved in which was far reaching. If you don't want to sit through the testimony he gave to the DCMS committee hearing then at least have a listen to a shorter interview he gave to C4 news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jjc_7BWq84

Also Shahmir Sanni, a Brexit campaign worker who witnessed first hand the cheating involved and diversion of fundings. He reported the matter to the EC......and ended up with his sexuality being publicly "outed" by Stephen Parkinson, May's political secretary at the time. Parkinson denied "outing" Sanni but Parkinson’s words sparked condemnation from former Vote Leave staffers with one saying, “I’ve lost complete respect for Stephen Parkinson. His antics are inexcusable and my sympathies are with Shahmir Sanni.” Downing street refused to comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ0bFAgTGwk

The subversion of democracy is crystal clear to me in that we all know the referendum was not run or conducted in accordance to electoral law. Whilst some acknowledge that fact, others prefer to remain in a permanent state of denial. I'm fully aware of dodgy dealings and electoral interference in other countries, mainly third world and/or regimes with dictatorships, so never imagined such could ever become possible in this country and find it extremely difficult witnessing the catastrophic damage it's done and continuing to do. The lies and disinformation used to push the Brexit agenda are all well documented and cannot be ignored. Even had i voted Brexit, i personally would not be comfortable with all the duplicity and shenanigans on my conscience. You obviously are but the consequences of your actions will certainly come back to haunt you though i suspect it won't bother you until it affects you personally. I look beyond that and see other peoples livelihoods being impacted because this isn't about me....it's about the future and welfare of others, those less well off, those facing uncertainty over their jobs just to name a few points.
usermalc d
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.

user747
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Edited by 747 2019-02-16 7:58 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:19 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 2:41 PM

Tracker - 2019-02-14 4:43 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!


I doubt the Russians saw it that way Brian?

Left hand down a bit!

Yes, but I bet the Ukrainians did! It'd be like telling a Welshman that Wales is part of England, wouldn't it? I'll get me own coat!


(Daily Telegraph May 24th 1976.)
The Guided Missile Destroyer HMS Devonshire, which sailed yesterday from Malta for Odessa on the first Royal Naval visit to a ***Russian port*** in ten years, will in one sense be carrying on where she left off.
It was the Devonshire which made the last visit to a ***Russian port.*** This was to Leningrad with Admiral Sir John Frewen.
The latest visit – which is timed to begin at the same moment as the Soviet Cruiser Obraztsovy arrives in Portsmouth on Friday – was arranged by Mr Callaghan and Mr Gromyko in March.
The Devonshire will fly the flag of Admiral Anthony Morton, Flag Officer of the First Flotilla, who as a junior officer took part in convoys to Mumansk.

As I said Brian ..........

In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM

In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.



Rubbish........You voted for the status quo ........

I cant see much future prosperity from the EU seeing as our exports to them have dropped every year for the last 9 years ...........

If we want to properly prosper we need to get rid of expensive overheads like the EU ..........

userFast Pat
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fasc

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.


Ah that old myth?

Given the profound differences between a Nazi-occupied Europe and the European Union, how do we explain the enduring appeal of this comparison?

First of all, it is a simple expression of anxiety about a thriving Germany being the strongest economic and political power in Europe. In much of southern Europe, associating Angela Merkel’s calls for unpopular austerity measures, particularly in Greece, with Nazi dictates is a convenient way to attempt to discredit the policies. Taking the historical example of German dominance of Europe under Hitler and likening it to the economic and political clout of Germany today is easy, but ultimately unhelpful. It should be remembered that European integration began as a French initiative meant in part to strengthen France’s place in the world by harnessing the German economy, thus lending greater volume to France’s voice on the international stage. The fact that Germany has displaced France as the largest economic and political force in Europe is more a testament to the flexibility of the structure of the EU.

The enduring appeal of this myth in Britain is in large part due to that fact that it plays on public perceptions of the country’s experience in the Second World War. Talk of Hitler harks back to Britain’s finest hour, when Britain, so the national narrative goes, was able to defeat the Nazis that had overrun Britain’s continental allies, thanks to the strength of Britain’s national character, its empire, and its special relationship with the US. This rhetorical flourish concludes that today Britain ought to stand outside of Europe, as it did during the Second World War, and is accompanied by appeals to the “special relationship” – and even the Commonwealth – to prop up Britain’s power.

Such proposals are anachronistic and unrealistic. While its empire and its navy once gave Britain the status of a superpower, the political reality today is that Britain’s voice on the international stage is significantly amplified by its mambership of the EU. Labelling the EU as the fruit of Nazi projects may be a roundabout way of stoking up national pride, but the actual desired outcome – opposing the EU from the outside – would be disastrous for Britain.

There are indeed many legitimate grounds for criticising the EU. The EU’s policies since the eruption of the Eurozone crisis have often lacked vision and have weakened support for the EU in many member states. There is a troubling disconnect between the seemingly distant and arcane institutions of the EU and the everyday concerns of its 500 million citizens.

Even some of the historical assertions meant to legitimise the EU are questionable – the EU’s claim to have prevented war in Europe since 1945 consciously ignores the decisive role played by the superpowers and the context of the Cold War.

Nevertheless, the suggestion that today’s EU is in any way modelled on Nazi plans for Europe, or indeed that the Nazis had any plans for the continent resembling today’s EU, is fallacious and misleading. Instead of blaming the EU’s problems on some nebulous link to a Nazi past, the debate should instead focus constructively on how to solve the existing problems facing the EU and its member states – without resorting to labelling one's opponents as Nazis.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:30 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



I dunno.............I reckon us UKIP voters managed to get Cameron to have the referendum .........



userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.

Edited by Bulletguy 2019-02-16 8:50 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26067
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Is that the best you can counter with.....a couple of tweet like assumptions with zero factual evidence? At least i'd expect to read a few paragraphs. Put a bit more effort into your bleating.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26067
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 9:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Is that the best you can counter with.....a couple of tweet like assumptions with zero factual evidence? At least i'd expect to read a few paragraphs. Put a bit more effort into your bleating.


"A number of EU countries already grumble about Germany’s growing dominance."

https://www.politico.eu/article/what-germany-wants-angela-merkel-european-commission-presidency/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/fix-eu-single-currency-does-not-work

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/922404/german-power-grab-eu-martin-selmayr-european-commission-brexit

.........perhaps you should try taking your EU blinkers off ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 10:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:42 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 9:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Is that the best you can counter with.....a couple of tweet like assumptions with zero factual evidence? At least i'd expect to read a few paragraphs. Put a bit more effort into your bleating.


"A number of EU countries already grumble about Germany’s growing dominance."
.........perhaps you should try taking your EU blinkers off ........

Germany is the largest contributor to EU funding of all 28 members. UK has benefited from huge amounts of EU funding you now want to end, including that of vital medical research which is utterly disgraceful. You lot should be forced to pay for that alone through the most punitive taxation possible and for sure, those who've sought to drag us into this unholy mess must now be held to account for their actions.

Whilst we Remain voters recognise the EU is not 100% perfection (what organisation is?), at least by having a seat at the table we had a voice. We also knew where we were as an EU member state. Brexiters never had an exit strategy and had no clue at all what to do or where they were going after the referendum....in fact those who'd shouted loudly about it, all ran off.

So far your lunacy has cost the UK £80 billion......£800 million a week every week with an economy you claim as "ticking over nicely" plunging to a loss of 2% GDP.
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 7:43 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

UK has benefited from huge amounts of EU funding



More FAKE NEWS ..............

The UK has received a little bit of OUR MONEY back .............

userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 8:00 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

So far your lunacy has cost the UK £80 billion......£800 million a week every week with an economy you claim as "ticking over nicely" plunging to a loss of 2% GDP.


Germany's GDP dropped from 2.2% in 2017 to 1.5% in 2018

Britain's GDP dropped from 1.8% in 2017 to 1.4% in 2018

So if a loss of 2% of GDP is plunging?....... What would you call Germany's?..........

Bombing? .......



userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:19 PM.........…..In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

To which there is an eminently simple answer: the Telegraph was wrong.

Russia and the USSR were not the same thing, and Ukraine, as I pointed out above was, at that time, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

All the Telegraph did was dumb-down the distinction, to assist its average cold war era reader.

Had you been on the Leningrad (now once more St Petersberg) trip in October 1966, you would have been to Russia, but you were on the Odessa trip, and you actually went to Ukraine (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), which was part of the Soviet block, but not part of Russia.

Claiming Ukraine was, or ever has been, part of Russia, is just geographic illiteracy.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-16 8:28 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fasc

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.


Ah that old myth?

Given the profound differences between a Nazi-occupied Europe and the European Union, how do we explain the enduring appeal of this comparison?

First of all, it is a simple expression of anxiety about a thriving Germany being the strongest economic and political power in Europe. In much of southern Europe, associating Angela Merkel’s calls for unpopular austerity measures, particularly in Greece, with Nazi dictates is a convenient way to attempt to discredit the policies. Taking the historical example of German dominance of Europe under Hitler and likening it to the economic and political clout of Germany today is easy, but ultimately unhelpful. It should be remembered that European integration began as a French initiative meant in part to strengthen France’s place in the world by harnessing the German economy, thus lending greater volume to France’s voice on the international stage. The fact that Germany has displaced France as the largest economic and political force in Europe is more a testament to the flexibility of the structure of the EU.

The enduring appeal of this myth in Britain is in large part due to that fact that it plays on public perceptions of the country’s experience in the Second World War. Talk of Hitler harks back to Britain’s finest hour, when Britain, so the national narrative goes, was able to defeat the Nazis that had overrun Britain’s continental allies, thanks to the strength of Britain’s national character, its empire, and its special relationship with the US. This rhetorical flourish concludes that today Britain ought to stand outside of Europe, as it did during the Second World War, and is accompanied by appeals to the “special relationship” – and even the Commonwealth – to prop up Britain’s power.

Such proposals are anachronistic and unrealistic. While its empire and its navy once gave Britain the status of a superpower, the political reality today is that Britain’s voice on the international stage is significantly amplified by its mambership of the EU. Labelling the EU as the fruit of Nazi projects may be a roundabout way of stoking up national pride, but the actual desired outcome – opposing the EU from the outside – would be disastrous for Britain.

There are indeed many legitimate grounds for criticising the EU. The EU’s policies since the eruption of the Eurozone crisis have often lacked vision and have weakened support for the EU in many member states. There is a troubling disconnect between the seemingly distant and arcane institutions of the EU and the everyday concerns of its 500 million citizens.

Even some of the historical assertions meant to legitimise the EU are questionable – the EU’s claim to have prevented war in Europe since 1945 consciously ignores the decisive role played by the superpowers and the context of the Cold War.

Nevertheless, the suggestion that today’s EU is in any way modelled on Nazi plans for Europe, or indeed that the Nazis had any plans for the continent resembling today’s EU, is fallacious and misleading. Instead of blaming the EU’s problems on some nebulous link to a Nazi past, the debate should instead focus constructively on how to solve the existing problems facing the EU and its member states – without resorting to labelling one's opponents as Nazis.

Apologies for repeating the whole lot just to say good post, but it needs the lot for context. Spot on!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:27 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM
In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.

Rubbish........You voted for the status quo ........
I cant see much future prosperity from the EU seeing as our exports to them have dropped every year for the last 9 years ...........
If we want to properly prosper we need to get rid of expensive overheads like the EU ..........

But you forger Dave, that the status quo extends into future.

Neither you, nor any other proponents of Brexit have ever, to my knowledge, explained what the post Brexit future of the UK would be.

You and the other Brexiters voted against the flawed image you have gained from the sources you choose to read and believe.

Compered to what we have now, what would we lose were we to remain the EU, and what actual benefits will leaving now bring? Where are the imperatives? Why the rush? Why now?
userageingandrew
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:32 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Just joined

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Location: Hampshire. Hymer B544, 3.0 Auto


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM
So here's the thing. Brexit is hopelessly mired. It is clear that parliament has no majority for any solution to the referendum vote outcome. Therefore, what are the options?

A slim majority of the electorate voted to leave. A substantial minority voted remain.

Those who voted leave voted on the basis of a number of issues, principally national sovereignty, immigration, and border security.

Those who voted remain did so mainly on the basis of the damage to the UK economy that Brexit seemed most likely to cause.

In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.

...
Brexit is not fundamentally about the EU, it is about years of failed UK government policy. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?


Hello Brian,

Brexit is mired because of Parliament wanting to obstruct instead of construct and a PM who is not capable of working in a cooperative manner. This is evidenced by the dreadful deal she directed her negotiating team to bring back to us, a deal that can only be described as an unconditional surrender; a deal that was properly rejected by the Commons.
David Cameron tried to get us a better deal throughout 2014/15, but he failed. At the time the UK was soaking up a lot of EU unemployment from Spain, Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria and France and of course those countries did not want their citizens to be denied access to the UK jobs market so refused him permission to ‘control our own borders’. This was a clear demonstration of how much sovereignty we had lost over the decades and that the EU was incapable of reform.

We had a referendum because it was generally accepted that Parliament was not representative of the people. The referendum result proved that to be true.

I totally disagree with your statement that “remain voters voted mainly on the basis of the damage to the UK economy that Brexit seemed most likely to cause”. I believe that remain voters voted against leave, against the buffoon Johnson, against Gove and others.
The remain campaign failed miserably to paint a compelling picture or vision of why the UK should remain in the EU and that is why they lost.

However, we are where we are. Yes, Brexit is about years of failed UK government policy, but UK government policy will not be fixed by staying in the EU.

Extending article 50 or holding a further referendum would be admissions that democracy will be subverted by Remain who will continue to sow fear, uncertainty, doubt and hyperbole in order to scare citizens into voting their way.

May’s team have negotiated a dreadful deal and should not be given a second chance. The EU negotiators have put the UK is a dreadful position, however with EU elections coming up at the end of May they may well have blotted their own copybook. Their negotiating stance will seriously impede Ireland which currently spends 50% of its tax income on servicing its debt. Any reduction in tax income as a result of no deal will send the Irish economy into a tail spin and subsequently a nose dive. Ireland will require a bail out exceeding €80billion as a direct result of Barnier/Tusk/Junkers policy of punishing the UK.

There is only one option now on the table that does not subvert democracy and that is to head towards the 29th March without a deal and then negotiate other deals with France, with Spain afterwards.

A better slogan is "Deliver Brexit and then fix the UK".

Regards
Andrew
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM
747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM
malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM
747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM
It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.
It is called Demoocracy.

I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.
Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.

It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.
While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.
They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).
Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading. http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf
It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth
Just seen FP already quoted.

The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........
It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Well, they certainly didn't think so at the time. They wanted to keep the Deutsche Mark. How odd.
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