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‘A’ frames in France


TonyEmm

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For Information,

 

Recently seen in the French ’Camping Car’ magazine!

 

Le cadre à tracter est rigoureusement interdit en France.

(The frame to be towed is strictly prohibited in France.)

 

 

........Par ailleurs, en cas de contrôle, il faudra que le conducteur prouve que la voiture prise en remorque est bien en panne et qu’il est en train de se rendre chez un garagiste pour la faire réparer.

 

Enfin, précisons que plusieurs assurances (Entre autres Alliance) refusent aujourd’hui catégoriquement de couvrir le dispositif « Cadre à tracter » pour la raison que le véhicule en remorque a subi des modifications notoires de sa partie avant par l’ajout d’un renfort métallique derrière le bouclier avant, sur lequel vient s’arrimer l’extrémité de la barre de traction.

 

Roughly translated extract, “.......Furthermore, in the event of an inspection, the driver will have to prove that the towed car has broken down and that he is going to a garage to have it repaired.

 

Finally, it should be noted that several insurance companies (among others Alliance) now categorically refuse to cover the "Frame to be towed" device for the reason that the vehicle in tow has undergone significant modifications to its front part by adding a reinforcement. metal behind the front shield, on which the end of the drawbar is docked.”

 

Avec son camping-car, il brave les interdits du cadre à tracter - Nos actus | Camping-car Magazine

Le cadre à tracter est rigoureusement interdit en France. Mais certains camping-caristes refusent de se soumettre à cette interdiction et cherchent toutes les parades pour tenter de contourner la loi.

www.camping-car.com www.camping-car.com

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Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Tony.

 

Quite a few years ago French authorities pronounced as illegal the practice that involved a motorhome towing a car on an A-frame as it conflicted with the French Code de la Route, and French motorhome magazines and clubs agreed that this was the case.

 

This 2012 forum thread refers

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/What-is-the-law-on-A-Frame-Towing-in-France-/28292/

 

and the subject has been discussed here quite often since.

 

This 2019 forum entry

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Can-I-tow-a-car-with-a-frame-in-France-please-/51216/

 

included a (GOOGLE-translated) link to the 2018 "Camping-Car Magazine” article that I think you’ve quoted from

 

https://tinyurl.com/y75dvhl3

 

(French-language version here)

 

https://www.camping-car.com/nos-actus/21024-avec-son-camping-car-il-brave-les-interdits-du-cadre-a-tracter

 

French insurance companies were originally prepared to offer cover to French motorcaravanners who wanted to A-frame tow, but this dried up once French authorities had made it very clear that the practice was against French motoring law. I can believe that the modifications needed to make a car suitable for A-frame towing would make French insurance providers even more wary of offering cover - in fact, I’d be surprised if any French insurer would be prepared to offer cover for A-frame towing nowadays - but it’s the illegality (in France) that would have been the show-stopper.

 

Lots of stuff about the insurance issue on French motorhome forums

 

https://tinyurl.com/yxe6vp8s

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Hi

 

As per most of Continental Europe. They are not accepted. I use one all the time (in the UK) and have for over 20 years now. But the last time we went to Spain Circa 2008, I was stopped twice by the Guardia Civil.

 

All the arguments for and against the use have been well aired, It`s current in "another place" at the moment!.. Since 2008 until 2014 I had an R-V in the USA. we "A" framed there, Many, many do, I had a Tacoma 4WD pickup. "toad", with which rig I did over 20K miles and 27 states. There are as far as I am aware no recorded incidences of accident or other issues, But the fact remains the Europeans in general are set against such use. Daft in my opinion but unlikely to change ever. And thereby hangs another tale.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thank you for the welcome, Derek!

 

I appreciate the links too..... to be honest though, the way things are going with the drive toward banning petrol and diesel vehicles in the relatively near future, I suspect ‘A’ frame use will die a death anyway.

 

As far as I know there is neither an all electric vehicle that has a decent towing limit or indeed, any all electric car that can be flat towed!

 

Time will tell .......??

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Thank you for the welcome, Derek!

 

Apologies! I pressed the button twice! I’d like to say though that I’m impressed with the genuine, factual information found on here regarding towing with an ‘A’ frame.... it makes a change to find actual facts and links rather than just ‘opinions’.

 

I realise some of the discussion is quite old on here, but there must be many newer members who aren’t aware of the situation. For that reason alone, I think it’s worth occasionally refreshing the subject....

Regards

 

Tony.

 

P.S. your name rings a bell..... have we crossed paths before? My memory isn’t always what I would wish! ??????????

 

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A-frame towing-related discussion/argument has been a pet subject on UK motorhome forums for at least 20 years. It’s a relatively specialised practice and I don’t remember anything radically new being reported about it anywhere for quite some while.

 

The ‘legal’ position in the UK is well known and that’s been similarly true in France for a decade or so, though some French A-frame users still seem unable to accept the verdict.

 

This A-frame/France enquiry was in early-2019 - so the subject has been discussed here reasonably recently

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Can-I-tow-a-car-with-a-frame-in-France-please-/51216/

 

(I don’t recall ‘meeting’ you before...)

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Despite the A Frame being illegal in France I still regularly see them on the French roads, mostly French registered. On one occasion the towed vehicle was a motorcycle trike.

 

As with most motoring offences; it only becomes an issue to you if you are stopped by the police.

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Nicepix - 2020-09-29 8:33 AM

 

Despite the A Frame being illegal in France I still regularly see them on the French roads, mostly French registered. On one occasion the towed vehicle was a motorcycle trike.

 

As with most motoring offences; it only becomes an issue to you if you are stopped by the police.

 

And I suppose if you do get stopped, a Frenchman who can talk the talk might stand more chance of talking his way out of it than Johnny Foreigner. :-D :-D

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In the 2019 forum thread I provided a link to in my previous posting I said

 

...as the French police don’t appear to be concerned about French motorcaravanners A-frame towing and the French law is technically complex, I very much doubt that the French police would bother a UK A-framing motorcaravanner.

 

Me, I couldn’t care less what A-framers do abroad as It’s most unlikely to affect me negatively. However, I’ve always been perplexed by the apparent inability (or reluctance) of the UK A-framing ‘community’ to research what laws each Continental European countriy has that might impact on A-framing there and - when there is a legal prohibition - what the risk of prosecution might be.

 

France definitely has national regulations that would forbid the motorhome A-frame towing practice in that country, but - to the best of my knowledge - those regulations have yet to result in prosecution of French or ‘foreign’ A-framers. Germany evidently has A-frame-banning regulations as some UK A-framers have been fined there. Spain is known to be an A-framing ‘high risk’ country, but what are the FACTS regarding Italy, Portugal, Belgium, Denmark Croatia, Switzerland, etc. etc.?

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The problem is not just the fine but the not so remote possibility that the policeman could think of seizing both, frame and car.

This is possible at least in Italy where the seizure of an irregular vehicle is required by law. Indeed, it's mandatory.

I think it can be elsewhere too.

 

Have you ever thought about it ?

 

Max

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Derek Uzzell - 2020-09-29 6:41 PM

The motorhome is legal, the A-frame is legal, the car being towed is legal - it’s the A-framing practice that’s illegal in France not the equipment.

Pedantic, I accept, but it is the act of towing another vehicle that is illegal - except under defined circumstances.

 

One vehicle may only tow another in an emergency, for example where it has broken down at a dangerous point on a road. Otherwise, it should be pushed as far as reasonably possible clear of the carriageway, the hazard warning flashers activated, and a breakdown service called.

 

The breakdown service will have a vehicle specifically authorised to tow (or transport) other vehicles. No UK registered motorhome is remotely likely to have that authorisation.

 

If the car is to be towed, it can only legally be done using a purpose made, rigid, towpole, at low speed, with the hazard flashers of both vehicles activated, and should then be taken to the nearest available garage for repair. Considering the modifications that are made to a tow car to accommodate an A frame, I don't think there is a cat in hell's chance that the French (or any other) police would accept the argument that an A framed car is being towed in accordance with French (or any other) law.

 

Some cite the Vienna Convention on International Road Traffic claiming that because A frames are legal in UK, other countries must accept A framing with a UK registered vehicle. The hitch (see what I did :-)) with this argument is that the legality of A framing in UK has never been tested, and no specific regulations or legislation authorises it. All we have is an opinion from DVLA that a flat towed car can be regarded as a trailer, providing it fully complies with trailer regulations. With Type Approved vehicles, the latter is something of a moot point, but the authorities seem uninclined to resolve the issue.

 

So, all that can be said for A framing a car in the UK is that it is not illegal. "Not illegal" does not meet the legality test required under the Vienna Convention, so is not admissible in other jurisdictions (especially those where a trailer has to have its own registration document) where positive evidence of legality is a requirement.

 

A V5C stating that your trailer is, in fact, a car, will not assist arguments to the contrary! :-D

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A French policeman might well decide to ‘verbalise’ a motorcaravanner for towing a car on an A-frame as this practice conflicts with the Code de la Route, but actually having the power to seize either (or both) of the vehicles or the A-frame would be quite another matter.

 

A good few years ago the Formula 1 driver René Arnoux was caught driving at an outrageous speed on an autoroute and, besides a huge fine and many penalty points on his driving licence, his car was confiscated. Arnoux’s lawyer appealed, saying that the French law that permitted vehicle confiscation stated clearly that, in addition to travelling at warp drive speed, the offender must also have been doing this in an unsafe manner and - while it was admitted that Arnoux had been driving massively over the autoroute speed limit - his racing skills allowed him to do this safely. They gave Arnoux his car back and changed the law...

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I worked at Airbus in Toulouse mid noughties and one of my technicians was speeding to get back from a weekend home. IIRC he was doing well over the ton when caught. French police took away his licence there and then on the spot and impounded his car for two weeks. Tricky situation when you're stuck in the middle of rural France not speaking the language and no easy means of sorting it out.
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It used to be universally understood within the French motorcaravanning community that it was illegal in France for a motorhome to tow a car on an A-frame. But lots of UK motorcaravanners were A-frame-towing in France and French motorcaravanners really liked the idea.

 

A couple of UK A-frame manufacturers (TOWtal and CAR-A-TOW) jumped on the band-wagon, opened agencies in France and put forward persuasive reasons (homologation, Vienna Convention, UK trailer regulations etc.) why A-framing in France must be legal. Plenty of French motorcaravanners accepted those arguments, bought A-frames and had motorhomes and cars suitably modified - even French insurance providers (apparently) were comfortable with the legality issue at that time and were prepared to offer cover.

 

In 2017 a question was put to the French Minister of State/Minister of the Interior seeking (further) clarification of the ‘A-framing in France is illegal’ regulations, particularly as these rules might affect tourists from other EU countries. The reply was categorical "In conclusion, apart from specific breakdown operations, the only legal and secure way to transport a car behind a motorhome is to place it on a car transporter trailer.”

 

It is often stated on French motorhome forums that the UK has motoring laws that relate specificallly to motorhome A-framing and pronounce the practice legal, and, consequently, such laws should apply EU-wide and include France. As we all know the UK position regarding A-framing is based on the guidance shown here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

 

and involves belief and opinion not specific UK law - but this is not understood (and never mentioned) on French forums.

 

The penalties for exceeding French speed limits are listed here

 

https://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/reglementation-liee-aux-risques/reglementation-de-la-vitesse-au-volant

 

and - for exceeding a speed limit by 50 km/h or more - one of the penalties is "Confiscation possible du véhicule si le conducteur en est le propriétaire” (Possible confiscation of the vehicle if the driver is the owner).

 

Regarding the French breathalyser law farce, this 2012 article mentioned possible ‘corruption'

 

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Controversy-on-breathalyser-law

 

but I can’t see how that sort of thing could apply to A-framing in France.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Derek Uzzell - 2020-09-29 8:22 AM

 

A-frame towing-related discussion/argument has been a pet subject on UK motorhome forums for at least 20 years. It’s a relatively specialised practice and I don’t remember anything radically new being reported about it anywhere for quite some while.

 

The ‘legal’ position in the UK is well known and that’s been similarly true in France for a decade or so, though some French A-frame users still seem unable to accept the verdict.

 

This A-frame/France enquiry was in early-2019 - so the subject has been discussed here reasonably recently

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Can-I-tow-a-car-with-a-frame-in-France-please-/51216/

 

(I don’t recall ‘meeting’ you before...)

thanks for the link Derek, I’ll check it out.... it could be me having a ‘senior moment’, I have a niece who’s surname is Uzzell! ??????
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I would make the point that from 1st January 2021 you can bet your last pound that the French police will take an extra special delight in stopping UK A Frame drivers and apply the maximum penalty :-D

 

And if the Brexit fishing outcome is not to that country's liking then I think I'll avoid France altogether for at least 12 months (lol).

 

Finally: no offence to A Framers but whenever we see a motorhome towing a car we shout in unison "Why not just buy a caravan" !

 

No need to respond to that last rant - this is a very long standing argument.

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Matrix Meanderer - 2020-10-31 10:37 PM

 

I would make the point that from 1st January 2021 you can bet your last pound that the French police will take an extra special delight in stopping UK A Frame drivers and apply the maximum penalty :-D

 

And if the Brexit fishing outcome is not to that country's liking then I think I'll avoid France altogether for at least 12 months (lol).

 

Finally: no offence to A Framers but whenever we see a motorhome towing a car we shout in unison "Why not just buy a caravan" !

 

No need to respond to that last rant - this is a very long standing argument.

No offence taken. But we have been using that method for some 20 years, as it is for us a more convenient way of dealing with the requirements of disability. When my wife was diagnosed, we realised that caravanning, which we had enjoyed since the 60`s, was not suitable for several reasons. There is more to it than JUST a preference. In some ways it is preferable to an alternative of sitting at home staring at 4 walls. In fact it actually allowed us to tour, not just Europe, but the USA.

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