A class to PVC?

[P E Jennings]

We currently own Hymer B544. Satisfies all our requirements. Ready made bed, good lounging, excellent storage, brilliant shower BUT after purchase, in order for it to be legal on the road, we had to have it plated up to 3850 kgs. We are now both past that milestone of 70 & fortunately have both been re -awarded our C1’s. However, we have decided that now is the right time to look for a replacement van before the Hymer gets any older & we add more mileage on to it & before the price of a replacement rises further.

After the holidays we intend to view a Rapido V55 & Adria 640 SGX.

We tend to use our van for a total of at least 6 months of nights away per year, spend perhaps 3 months in any one period, like minimum facility sites, use aires or equivalent depending on country, eat on board 99.9% of time due to medical reasons, & perhaps travel up to 10,000 miles per year.

Any advice or recommendations will be appreciated.

[Derek Uzzell]

You might be better comparing the Adria 640 SGX with the Rapido V68, as both of these are on a 6.36m-long base, whereas the Rapido V55 is 5.99m long.

[Brian Kirby]

P & E Jennings - 2019-12-26 5:08 PM

 

We currently own Hymer B544. Satisfies all our requirements. Ready made bed, good lounging, excellent storage, brilliant shower BUT after purchase, in order for it to be legal on the road, we had to have it plated up to 3850 kgs. We are now both past that milestone of 70 & fortunately have both been re -awarded our C1’s. However, we have decided that now is the right time to look for a replacement van before the Hymer gets any older & we add more mileage on to it & before the price of a replacement rises further.

After the holidays we intend to view a Rapido V55 & Adria 640 SGX.

We tend to use our van for a total of at least 6 months of nights away per year, spend perhaps 3 months in any one period, like minimum facility sites, use aires or equivalent depending on country, eat on board 99.9% of time due to medical reasons, & perhaps travel up to 10,000 miles per year.

Any advice or recommendations will be appreciated.

Not a specific suggestion, but from experience of doing similar in 2017.

 

Be very selective! Almost every converter is now offering a PVC conversion within their range, so there are a huge number of variants around. Some are more or less clones of others, while others again have small, but significant, detailed differences in equipment, space allocations (as between kitchen/dining area/washroom/bed), bed sizes and height, gas locker sizes, "kitchen" size, number of hob burners, fridge size and location (and type, in terms of AES or not), washroom size and layout etc. etc.

 

You intend using the vehicle extensively, and you intend self-catering extensively, so small variations in layout, washroom/showering arrangement, lack of/presence of an oven (a big ask, IMO, in so compact a vehicle) low/high set fridges (and size of same), table size (and weight), etc. etc. will become magnified in such extensive use so that minor shortcomings become major irritants with familiarity.

 

To try to settle the conundrum we went to Dusseldorf in 2017 to look at the German motorhome show (which has exhibitors from most of mainland Europe) to "audition as many as possible. The one we presently have was the one that "ticked our boxes" but it is not ideal, and I have carried out a few internal mods to rectify the most irritating design flaws. I'm sure the perfect van exists but, as far as I could see, its attributes are spread across nearly all the makes and do not reside in a single vehicle! :-D

 

On that basis my suggestion would be to grab the brochures from as many manufacturers as have a UK presence, and then work through them against a shortlist of your "must have" and "desirable" attributes to see which literally ticks the most boxes. Having done the paper exercise, go to see your shortlist in the flesh and inspect thoroughly, including lying on the beds, sitting on the toilets, sitting opposite at the dining table etc etc to see which you find the best compromise. If the best doesn't stand clear, then go back and consider which fault will prove easiest to rectify!

 

If looking a German made vans, bear in mind that their gas lockers tend to be designed around 11kg cylinders, so lockers that take two such may well not take two 13kg cylinders (or at least getting a 13kg cylinder through a door designed to pass an 11kg cylinder may not prove possible!).

 

Final thought, on my own experience to date, opt for the "heavy" chassis, with its higher axle loads, in lieu of the standard offering.

 

These can usually be ordered "down plated" to 3.500kg if so desired, but the higher axle loads mean that in normal use neither axle is likely to become the Achilles heel that restricts what you can pack where.

 

I have no experience of the "light" chassis on a PVC, but our previous van was a Hymer exis-i on the light chassis (initially plated at 3,700kg, but later down plated to 3,500kg), and the ride quality of the present van is in many ways superior to the Hymer. Neither has/had limousine comfort, both are/were somewhat harsh, but the present van (on 16" wheels) and despite the higher permissible axle loads, is better damped and less "skittish" on poor road surfaces - especially "corrugated" bends.

[colin]

As you are interested in the Adria 640 SGX, I would recommend the original van that was similar, the Globecar Campscout. We have had ours nearly 9 years now, we often look at other vans, but have never found a similar sized van which better suits our needs. The shower arrangement is something which some people don't get, but we think it's a masterpiece in design for small vans.

Funny enough we have been considering going the other way, we have a few years until worrying about 70+ licences, and a Cathago 143 is a contender, but it means two of our favourite campsites will be inaccessible which leaves us dithering about buying one.

[P E Jennings]

Thank you so much for your replies. Very much appreciated. The one thing we never considered was a “light” -V -“heavy” chassis and we will now explore this further. Thank you.

We are aware that this change will require serious compromises but as we are already very, very weight conscious, we do wonder what equipment we can sacrifice. However, we are trying to future proof our next purchase. We have asked ourselves if we will still want to drive a large vehicle as we move along the age scale hence the decision to look at pvc vans. It requires both of us & a lot of manoeuvres to get our Hymer in & out the space where we park it at home. I drive & follow hubby’s instructions implicitly.

Would like to haves includes a ready made bed, 3 burner hob, a largish fridge(not compressor),space for at least 2 x 11 kgs gas bottles, preferably able to accept the Gaslow system, ability to have a SOG system & good kitchen storage. I am not a fan of underslung gas tanks nor of shower curtains hence us considering the Rapido V55 & Adria. We are intending to also go to Peterborough show in January (new to us) & NEC in February so any recommendations will be appreciated

[colin]

I would note that 6m vans could be 3.3t, 3.5t light or 3.5t heavy, the 6.36m van is only on the heavy chassis.

[gdf]

For what its worth we have a 2 year old Rapido V68 with 17K miles on it and would comment:

 

it is not as well put together as we expected a Rapido to be and this seems to be borne out by comments on the Rapido Owners Group on Facebook - recently built Rapidos are all described in this way.

 

the 'bought in' components are not very reliable - roof lights etc but all manufacturers use the same products.

 

the built in components are heavy which means rear axle loading is very tight with electric bikes on the back we are within axle limit just! if we add a full tank of water Its even closer to just! we upped to 3850 and load as much as possible at the front.

 

if you intend to use the toilet check you can do so in comfort before you buy.

 

Dave

[John52]

P & E Jennings - 2019-12-27 9:27 AM

we are already very, very weight conscious,

A few years ago I was ordered into the MOT (or whatever they call themselves now) weighbridge near Dover. My van looked like an ordinary white van from the outside. as soon as I opened the door the guy said 'Oh its a Motorhome - we don't weigh those, you can go.' So on I went, right past the weighbridge without being weighed. In fact, although some owners are obsessed with weight, I have never heard of a motorhome being weighed. So I wouldn't worry about weight - within reason of course.

[Brock]

We swapped our Hymer 544 for a Hymer 504. My wife refused to have a PVC because none of those we look at had comfy beds compared to our Hymer. The 504 is 6m with a garage although whether the layout will suit your style of motorhoming is debatable.

[Derek Uzzell]

John52 - 2019-12-27 1:37 PM

 

P & E Jennings - 2019-12-27 9:27 AM

we are already very, very weight conscious,

A few years ago I was ordered into the MOT (or whatever they call themselves now) weighbridge near Dover. My van looked like an ordinary white van from the outside. as soon as I opened the door the guy said 'Oh its a Motorhome - we don't weigh those, you can go.' So on I went, right past the weighbridge without being weighed. In fact, although some owners are obsessed with weight, I have never heard of a motorhome being weighed. So I wouldn't worry about weight - within reason of course.

 

This link is to a gov.uk webpage headed "Roadside vehicle checks for commercial drivers”

 

https://www.gov.uk/roadside-vehicle-checks-for-commercial-drivers

 

and the advice begins

 

Checks on your vehicle

 

As a commercial driver, you might be asked to stop by the police or a Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) officer. They can stop vans, lorries, buses and coaches.

 

This suggests that DVSA is not interested in UK-registered motorhomes being driven by private individuals. That’s not necessarily the case outside the UK, though...

 

There’s a long 2018-vintage discussion on a French motorhome forum about French police weight-checking motorhomes, cars, etc. and, if the vehicle were found to be overweight, insisting that steps be taken there and then to rectify this. If the vehicle continued to be overweight despite items having been removed from it, it was stated that the police would impound the vehicle.

 

Even if the chances of being weight-checked in the UK by the DVSA are nil, or it’s thought that the risk of being weight-checked abroad is small, plenty of UK motorcaravanners ask on forums about the ‘correct’ tyre pressures they should use (which often equates to “How low can my motorhome’s tyre pressures be and still be safe?") And the only way to know how low the pressures can safely be is to establish what the fully loaded motorhome’s axle-loads are, and the only way to do that is to weigh the motorhome when it is fully loaded.

 

 

[John52]

I believe the seroius danger from motorhome weight is drivers who don't realise how much heat it produces in the brakes when descending a steep hill. Commercial drivers are trained, as part of the test, to use the engine as a brake on long steep hills and descend them slowly. Wheras motorhome drivers have often only driven light vehicles where overheating brakes is not an issue. I've even heard aof a car driving instructor who told his pupils not to use the engine as a brake because brake linings are cheaper - apparently oblivious to the danger of overheating brakes. The engine is well equipped with radiator and fan to dissipate heat.

Brakes are not.

The heavy chassis with bigger wheels has bigger brakes to dissipate a little more heat.

I'd be very wary of long steep descents with a lot of weight on the light chassis.

[Billggski]

"We tend to use our van for a total of at least 6 months of nights away per year, spend perhaps 3 months in any one period, like minimum facility sites, use aires or equivalent depending on country, eat on board 99.9% of time due to medical reasons, & perhaps travel up to 10,000 miles per year. "

 

Are you sure a pvc will be adequate for this life style? Keep your C1's and your Hymer, or divorce beckons! ??

[gdf]

I would add from experience of a PVC and a Coachbuilt is that the PVC will go down all roads on the map and some that aren't.

 

Dave

[John52]

gdf - 2019-12-28 12:55 PM

 

I would add from experience of a PVC and a Coachbuilt is that the PVC will go down all roads on the map and some that aren't.

 

Dave

 

Probably true. The problem is getting back up again - particularly hairpin bends on steep hills. A couple have defeated my X2/50 XLWB. One at Milook Haven just south of Bude. Another at Hardnott Pass heading towards Ambleside. A RWD van would probably have got up as the weight would have been thrown back on to the drive wheels when the van faces uphill.

[P E Jennings]

Thank you all so very, very much for taking the time & the interest to reply to us. Our heads are dizzy & our eyes cross-eyed from looking & reading on line. Now awaiting the reopening of dealers showrooms following the hols. Might I add that on top of all our earlier stated reasons for considering downsizing another is the Go Box fiasco we experienced in Austria which was a nightmare. Never again.

[P E Jennings]

Will have a look now. Thank you

[Guest pelmetman]

P & E Jennings - 2019-12-26 5:08 PM

 

We currently own Hymer B544. Satisfies all our requirements. Ready made bed, good lounging, excellent storage, brilliant shower BUT after purchase, in order for it to be legal on the road, we had to have it plated up to 3850 kgs. We are now both past that milestone of 70 & fortunately have both been re -awarded our C1’s. However, we have decided that now is the right time to look for a replacement van before the Hymer gets any older & we add more mileage on to it & before the price of a replacement rises further.

After the holidays we intend to view a Rapido V55 & Adria 640 SGX.

We tend to use our van for a total of at least 6 months of nights away per year, spend perhaps 3 months in any one period, like minimum facility sites, use aires or equivalent depending on country, eat on board 99.9% of time due to medical reasons, & perhaps travel up to 10,000 miles per year.

Any advice or recommendations will be appreciated.

 

So why change? :-S ........

 

Can you not down plait to 3500kg?.........

 

Do you really want to spend time sorting out the inevitable problems of a new van?........

 

We've spent the last 4 years living full time in our 29 year old van that we've owned since it was 18 months old ..........There's no way on earth that I would intentionally change it 8-) ........

 

Just to add..... the on board weight problem can easily be sorted with a box trailer which has been a boon for us since we went full time...........

 

 

 

 

[Billggski]

Downplating to 3500kg runs the risk of being stopped and weighed as you say you have taken it up to 3850 "to remain legal". I did the same. Although I have not seen evidence of a small motorhome ever being weighed.

My local dealer suggested I return it to 3500 as " no one ever gets checked", the breakdown service is cheaper and quicker, higher speed limits and it is more attractive to buyers.

I can run it very light, with no spare wheel, little water, and minimum extras, and rely on the 5% leeway on weights said to be allowable.

But my C1 licence cost just a £55 medical for three years, lets me load up what I want and relax.

[Guest pelmetman]

Billggski - 2019-12-29 6:57 PM

 

Downplating to 3500kg runs the risk of being stopped and weighed as you say you have taken it up to 3850 "to remain legal". I did the same. Although I have not seen evidence of a small motorhome ever being weighed.

My local dealer suggested I return it to 3500 as " no one ever gets checked", the breakdown service is cheaper and quicker, higher speed limits and it is more attractive to buyers.

I can run it very light, with no spare wheel, little water, and minimum extras, and rely on the 5% leeway on weights said to be allowable.

But my C1 licence cost just a £55 medical for three years, lets me load up what I want and relax.

 

Your dealer has a point ;-) .........

 

This forum has cost me a fortune making myself legal *-) ......

 

I'd spent the previous 18 years oblivious and happily overweight :$ .........

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s perhaps worth mentioning that the Jennings’s Hymer B544 is 2004-registered - so 15 years old.

 

Peter has explained the reasoning behind wishing to replace the Hymer and the logic seems perfectly understandable to me.

 

However, given the way Peter and Enid make use of their motorhome, I’m very wary of a 6m-long (or even a 6.36m-long) Fiat-based PVC proving satisfactory - but that’s up to them.

 

It is worth saying that coachbuilt motorhomes that are relatively narrow and short are available and should not weigh any more than a similar length PVC.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2019-12-30 9:10 AM...…………...

It is worth saying that coachbuilt motorhomes that are relatively narrow and short are available and should not weigh any more than a similar length PVC.

It is perhaps worth adding to this that such vans are also slightly more spacious then the equivalent PVC, as they tend to be very slightly wider, but also are generally flat sided, so that width at floor and roof level is greater, even though width at mid-level is only marginally so. This brings benefits to washrooms, fridges, and high and low level storage lockers. They are also better insulated overall.

 

I'm unsure what timescale Peter and Enid are allocating to this change exercise, or where they intend spending their time in their new van, but would suggest they give some thought (if they have not already done so) to Visa requirements for EU travel post Brexit, as the kinds of extended stays they have mentioned look likely to become impossible on normal (90 days in any 180 day period) Schengen Visas once we lose our EU member privileges, with the alternative extended tourist Visa arrangements being more difficult and expensive to arrange.

[ChrisCM]

John52 - 2019-12-27 6:07 PM

 

I believe the seroius danger from motorhome weight is drivers who don't realise how much heat it produces in the brakes when descending a steep hill. Commercial drivers are trained, as part of the test, to use the engine as a brake on long steep hills and descend them slowly. Wheras motorhome drivers have often only driven light vehicles where overheating brakes is not an issue. I've even heard aof a car driving instructor who told his pupils not to use the engine as a brake because brake linings are cheaper - apparently oblivious to the danger of overheating brakes. The engine is well equipped with radiator and fan to dissipate heat.

Brakes are not.

The heavy chassis with bigger wheels has bigger brakes to dissipate a little more heat.

I'd be very wary of long steep descents with a lot of weight on the light chassis.

 

Interesting! quite a few years ago I attended the Essex Police driving school and we were told the same thing, brake pads/linings are cheaper than clutches and gearboxes - use the brakes to slow down not the gearbox but just be in the correct gear when you want to continue/accelerate (And this was prior to austerity!)

[Don636]

I have always used a lower gear when descending a steep hill as I believe it provides better control. There are, in fact, road signs that advise you to do this so clearly the authorities believe this to be best practice. I can’t see how using a lower gear unduly wears out the clutch and gearbox but I can definitely see that using the brake all the way down a steep hill is going to cause a lot of heat and wear of the friction pads. I suffered some marked brake fade last year descending a steep mountain pass in the van and it was not funny. I was going a bit too quickly and in too high a gear plus the brake fluid was 5 years old - since changed!! I then ensured that I got my speed down at the top of the hill and picked the lowest sensible gear so no problems thereafter.

[ChrisCM]

Don636 - 2019-12-30 5:01 PM

 

I have always used a lower gear when descending a steep hill as I believe it provides better control. There are, in fact, road signs that advise you to do this so clearly the authorities believe this to be best practice. I can’t see how using a lower gear unduly wears out the clutch and gearbox but I can definitely see that using the brake all the way down a steep hill is going to cause a lot of heat and wear of the friction pads. I suffered some marked brake fade last year descending a steep mountain pass in the van and it was not funny. I was going a bit too quickly and in too high a gear plus the brake fluid was 5 years old - since changed!! I then ensured that I got my speed down at the top of the hill and picked the lowest sensible gear so no problems thereafter.

 

Fully agree with you, perhaps they didn't envisage Police cars careering down Alpine/Pyrenees mountains (lol)

[Derek Uzzell]

The following link refers to using brakes or gears to decelerate

 

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/driving-tips/76-brakes-to-slow-gears-to-go