A frame towing and insurance

[jetsets]

In the past I have towed a smart on an Aframe, but when explaining the set up to my car insurers I was never sure they understood what I meant and worried about its insured status when being towed. Recent web chat about legality of A frame towing in Europe seems to centre around lack of valid insurance when tha car is driverless but on the move . At the risk of opening a can of worms, what's the generally held view now? should I get an aframe or trailer to take smart car with my motor home in France?

[Derek Uzzell]

Carrying a Smart car on a trailer would make you immune to any national European ‘one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle’ regulations that MIGHT result in you being prosecuted. That’s a simple fact...

 

French motorcaravanners adopted the A-framing practice a few years ago and the ‘legality’ question was immediately raised there. The view of all relevant French authorities, the French motorhome press and the FFCC (Fédération Française des Campeurs, Caravaniers et Camping-caristes) is that A-framing conflicts with French motoring regulations. This repeatedly stated opinion has, more recently, resulted in French insurance providers that were previously prepared to issue policies covering A-framing refusing to do so. These couple of reasonably recent French links refer:

 

http://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/pratique/assurance/claudine-et-marc-arretez-de-nous-embeter-avec-le-cadre-a-tracter.html

 

https://www.ffcc.fr/etudes-de-cas/25/reclamations-contravention/111/verbalisation-pour-utilisation-dun-cadre-a-tracter

 

If you plan to tow a car on an A-frame I believe the priority is that you establish unequivocally with any UK insurance provider exactly what their position is regarding the coverage you will be seeking. If you gain the impression that the provider does not understand what you are telling them, explain it to them in an email. You do not what to put yourself into a situation where the UK insurance provider has misunderstood what you were proposing to do and provides an unsuitable/inadquate policy. And then read the policy very carefully...

 

A-framing is relatively unusual and in 2010 Comfort Insurance commented as follows:

 

“...accidental loss, damage or theft cover provided under our policy for trailers would not apply. Cars should always carry their own accidental loss or damage cover (we have our own Comfort private car scheme for these situations). We do however provide third party under our motorhome scheme whilst a trailer is attached to the motorhome (and that would include a car on a trailer or an A-Frame.”

 

I suspect that view may be still hold and that other UK insurance providers would take a similar stance.

 

As far as you towing a Smart car on an A-frame in France alone (and not in other Continental Europen countries) I’m not aware that anyone (wherever their motorhome is registered) has been prosecuted in France for A-framing, so the risk of you actually being ‘done' for A-framing there is probably minimal.

[ham]

Towing an A frame. You might get away with it. But I thought that if you made a claim on your insurance and the damage was done whilst you committing an act of breaking the law here in the UK. The insurer was within their rights of the policy issued to refuse payment. Would that not be the same in any country that you are driving in? and you have broken the law.

You don’t need to be the cause of an accident Just unlucky that someone else as caused the accident

 

[Derek Uzzell]

ham

 

I’m going to direct you to this 2012 A-frame-related forum thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/British-Consulate-confirms-that-A-Frame-towing-in-Spain-is-illegal/26399/

 

that included lengthy discussion about what might happen insurance-wise if a UK A-framer were involved in an accident in a country where the A-framing practice was illegal (eg. Spain).

[jetsets]

Hi thanks for the clarifications, nice not have all the naysayers pro and agin towing jumping in, just facts , thanks.

 

 

Still like the idea, have done it before , and found it really the best of MH and caravanning worlds put together. Unfortunately more so in Europe, but hey ho.

 

Pity no one does a quick fix trailer, where the wheels are tied down in one easy move, saw one on web where strap went over both wheels on a side, going up and over through bars just in front/behind each wheel, quite neat idea but quite a big trailer, found it the other night but can't find the website in the history , doh!

 

[jetsets]

Found a trailer with easy ties downs:

 

http://www.waltersonsvehicles.co.uk/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.waltersonsvehicles.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/AmtEco.jpg&target=_self

 

Hope the link works

[Brian Kirby]

If you go the A-frame route, you'll need to ensure that both insurers know, and understand, what you intend doing. While the car is being towed, it is most likely to be insured as a trailer under the motorhome insurance, which means that only third party risks will be covered. That means that, should you have the misfortune, for example, to snag a parked vehicle with the car while rounding a tight bend, the moho insurance will deal with damage to the other vehicle, but damage to your car will need to be covered under the full comprehensive element of the car insurance.

If you go the trailer route much the same will be true, although you will then need to take out a separate insurance for the trailer. As long as all insurers know and understand what you are doing, and confirm they are accepting the risk, all should be OK.

[Rayjsj]

Brian Kirby - 2017-01-11 10:19 PM

 

If you go the A-frame route, you'll need to ensure that both insurers know, and understand, what you intend doing. While the car is being towed, it is most likely to be insured as a trailer under the motorhome insurance, which means that only third party risks will be covered. That means that, should you have the misfortune, for example, to snag a parked vehicle with the car while rounding a tight bend, the moho insurance will deal with damage to the other vehicle, but damage to your car will need to be covered under the full comprehensive element of the car insurance.

If you go the trailer route much the same will be true, although you will then need to take out a separate insurance for the trailer. As long as all insurers know and understand what you are doing, and confirm they are accepting the risk, all should be OK.

Not so with the Caravan Club Insurance, i had a letter stating that my car was still fully comprehensively insured when being towed on my A- frame, i asked for the written proof. Both Car and Motorhome were with the same insurer so there could be no mistake. Did that for 3 years without any problems, but only in the UK.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Ray

 

The insurance issue was discussed in 2015 here

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Insurance-Towing-with-A-frame/38744/

 

There’s no conflict between what you and Brian have said.

 

As you had ‘comprehensively’ insured your motorhome AND your car via the Caravan Club’s insurance provider, it stands to reason that, whether your motorhome and car were driven separately or as a combined ‘unit’, both vehicles will have been insured comprehensively by their own Caravan Club-provided policies.

 

However, if a motorhome and car were to be comprehensively insured by different insurance providers, it should not be anticipated that the insurer of the motorhome would be prepared to pick up the tab if (say) the car were written off while it was being towed by the motorhome. The bill for repairing the car would need to be met by the insurer of the car.

 

Another scenario would be where the motorhome was comprehensively insured, but the car had only 3rd-part cover. In such an instance, it should not be expected that the car would suddenly ‘become’ comprehensively insured when it was attached to the motorhome.

 

Comfort Insurance’s stance in 2010 can be seen here

 

https://www.comfort-insurance.co.uk/2010/04/08/a-frame-and-motorhome-insurance/

 

and Caravanguard’s car-towing advice is here

 

http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/knowledgebase/motorhome-insurance/i-tow-a-car-behind-my-motorhome-using-a-trailer-does-your-motorhome-insurance-policy-cover-this/

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2017-01-12 10:16 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-01-11 10:19 PM

 

If you go the A-frame route, you'll need to ensure that both insurers know, and understand, what you intend doing. While the car is being towed, it is most likely to be insured as a trailer under the motorhome insurance, which means that only third party risks will be covered. That means that, should you have the misfortune, for example, to snag a parked vehicle with the car while rounding a tight bend, the moho insurance will deal with damage to the other vehicle, but damage to your car will need to be covered under the full comprehensive element of the car insurance.

If you go the trailer route much the same will be true, although you will then need to take out a separate insurance for the trailer. As long as all insurers know and understand what you are doing, and confirm they are accepting the risk, all should be OK.

Not so with the Caravan Club Insurance, i had a letter stating that my car was still fully comprehensively insured when being towed on my A- frame, i asked for the written proof. Both Car and Motorhome were with the same insurer so there could be no mistake. Did that for 3 years without any problems, but only in the UK.

Don't understand, Ray. You seem to be saying exactly what I was saying - if both insurers know, and understand, what one is doing, there should be no problem. If you never had a claim while towing over those three years, you won't have claimed, so the question of which insurance paid for which damage presumably didn't arise?

[RogerC]

ham - 2017-01-11 9:52 AMTowing an A frame. You might get away with it. But I thought that if you made a claim on your insurance and the damage was done whilst you committing an act of breaking the law here in the UK. The insurer was within their rights of the policy issued to refuse payment. Would that not be the same in any country that you are driving in? and you have broken the law. You don’t need to be the cause of an accident Just unlucky that someone else as caused the accident

At the risk of being considered argumentative where does it state, or under what law is 'A' framing in the UK illegal?

I ask as someone who 'A' framed a Smart car for a few years and never had any 'legal' issues.  Both my car and MH insurers  were informed and had no issue with what I was doing....not even a premium increase.  So please enlighten me.......thanks.

[thebishbus]

I think in England ,a thing can be regarded as legal unless proven otherwise . I do not think that A-frames have been challenged in court yet.

Brian B.

[colin]

RogerC - 2017-01-15 3:21 PM

ham - 2017-01-11 9:52 AMTowing an A frame. You might get away with it. But I thought that if you made a claim on your insurance and the damage was done whilst you committing an act of breaking the law here in the UK. The insurer was within their rights of the policy issued to refuse payment. Would that not be the same in any country that you are driving in? and you have broken the law. You don’t need to be the cause of an accident Just unlucky that someone else as caused the accident

At the risk of being considered argumentative where does it state, or under what law is 'A' framing in the UK illegal?

I ask as someone who 'A' framed a Smart car for a few years and never had any 'legal' issues.  Both my car and MH insurers  were informed and had no issue with what I was doing....not even a premium increase.  So please enlighten me.......thanks.

Ham has not suggested that it is illegal in UK.

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-01-15 3:21 PM

ham - 2017-01-11 9:52 AMTowing an A frame. You might get away with it. But I thought that if you made a claim on your insurance and the damage was done whilst you committing an act of breaking the law here in the UK. The insurer was within their rights of the policy issued to refuse payment. Would that not be the same in any country that you are driving in? and you have broken the law. You don’t need to be the cause of an accident Just unlucky that someone else as caused the accident

At the risk of being considered argumentative where does it state, or under what law is 'A' framing in the UK illegal?

I ask as someone who 'A' framed a Smart car for a few years and never had any 'legal' issues.  Both my car and MH insurers  were informed and had no issue with what I was doing....not even a premium increase.  So please enlighten me.......thanks.

I think you really need a QC to answer that question, Roger! :-) Insurance is a contract. The terms are stated in the policy documents. All UK vehicles are required to have, at minimum, third party insurance complying with the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts. Additional covers are discretionary, and will be as described in the terms of the insurance. The contract will have been made under UK Legal jurisdiction. AFAIK, what Brian B said above is still the case. A-framing in UK is not illegal, so it becomes a grey area until ruled illegal by the courts or under statute. On that basis UK vehicle insurers have no legal axe to grind, and the decision falls to be made purely on the basis of an insurer's willingness to accept the risk. If that insurance includes foreign use (subject to territorial limits), then it seems reasonable that the A-framing cover would extend in the same way.Certain countries have blanket prohibitions (with some exceptions and additional conditions) on vehicles, except licenced breakdown recovery vehicles, towing other vehicles. The penalty for breach is a fine. A fine is not claimable under insurance (I believe insurance that offered such cover would, itself, be illegal).Were there to be a "fender bender" type accident involving either the towed vehicle, or the towing vehicle, the minimum statutory insurance requirement is covered within the territorial limits of the policy, the law is satisfied, and the insurer should pay. It's a bit difficult to envisage an accident in which towing on an A-frame, as opposed to a trailer, would materially alter the circumstances - though, doubtless, someone will now come up with one! :-) If the police were involved the illegality of the A-frame might be raised, and a fine imposed but, as above, that wouldn't be an insurance matter.Were an A-framing motorhome to flatten a pedestrian, I suppose it might be claimed that, but for inefficient tow car brakes (which would have to be proved/defended) the motorhome would have stopped in time, but I can't see how that would affect the vehicle insurer's contractual liability. I suppose he might argue that use of an A-frame in that country was illegal, and his insurance was issued on the basis that the vehicles concerned were legal in combination, and therefore he'd only meet his third party obligation. However, that argument would seem perverse, on the basis that a similar accident in a country where the A-frame was not illegal, would result in a full pay-out. So, I think the claim for damages from the flattened pedestrian, and damage to the motorhome, would have to be met under the vehicle insurance. Any prosecution for driving an illegal combination that was held to have contributed to the accident would be a different matter, and would presumably be tried separately. M'learned friends may wish to demur! :-D

[RogerC]

colin - 2017-01-15 4:33 PM

RogerC - 2017-01-15 3:21 PM

ham - 2017-01-11 9:52 AMTowing an A frame. You might get away with it. But I thought that if you made a claim on your insurance and the damage was done whilst you committing an act of breaking the law here in the UK. The insurer was within their rights of the policy issued to refuse payment. Would that not be the same in any country that you are driving in? and you have broken the law. You don’t need to be the cause of an accident Just unlucky that someone else as caused the accident

At the risk of being considered argumentative where does it state, or under what law is 'A' framing in the UK illegal?

I ask as someone who 'A' framed a Smart car for a few years and never had any 'legal' issues.  Both my car and MH insurers  were informed and had no issue with what I was doing....not even a premium increase.  So please enlighten me.......thanks.

Ham has not suggested that it is illegal in UK.

Looks like it to me.....maybe it's the 'what is written is not read the same by everyone'

[RogerC]

Thanks Brian for the more in depth reply.  As a former A framer I was well aware of the 'pitfalls' in the legalities and therefore delved into my insurers cover to ensure my 'cover' was binding.  As such I never had any concerns over being covered or not.  However I was aware of the clause in most all insurances that the vehicles must be used 'legally' for cover to remain in place.  As we all know, or should, for example where speeding (as in exceeding the posted limit not just going fast) is considered contributory to an incident, or exacerbates the outcome of said incident where a claim is made insurers can and do place considerations with regard to payout. Hence we never considered A framing in Europe (continental for those Europhiles amongst us:-D)

Regarding insurance cover/legality in the UK (which is the scope of my reply above) for evidence one could delve deeper, should on be so inclined, to reveal the result of the 'Smart car on fire' whilst A framing.  IIRC the car was burnt out as a result of it not being set up correctly......the specifics of which I know not but recall it was relative to the Smart car not being set up correctly.  It would be interesting to know if 'A' The police prosecuted and 'B' If the insurance company paid out.  At least then we would have a degree of clarity as to how 'A' framing is viewed in at least one region of the UK.

[colin]

RogerC - 2017-01-16 12:02 PM

colin - 2017-01-15 4:33 PM

RogerC - 2017-01-15 3:21 PM

ham - 2017-01-11 9:52 AMTowing an A frame. You might get away with it. But I thought that if you made a claim on your insurance and the damage was done whilst you committing an act of breaking the law here in the UK. The insurer was within their rights of the policy issued to refuse payment. Would that not be the same in any country that you are driving in? and you have broken the law. You don’t need to be the cause of an accident Just unlucky that someone else as caused the accident

At the risk of being considered argumentative where does it state, or under what law is 'A' framing in the UK illegal?

I ask as someone who 'A' framed a Smart car for a few years and never had any 'legal' issues.  Both my car and MH insurers  were informed and had no issue with what I was doing....not even a premium increase.  So please enlighten me.......thanks.

Ham has not suggested that it is illegal in UK.

Looks like it to me.....maybe it's the 'what is written is not read the same by everyone'

Well if I was you I'd look again, you are taking one sentence and ignoring the following two. Ham has quite clearly stated (as far as I'm concerned) that if you do something illegal in UK he believes the insurance company can refuse payment, no statement of A framing being illegal there, he then goes on to say "would that not be same in any country you are driving in".

[Derek Uzzell]

RogerC - 2017-01-16 12:19 PM

 

...Regarding insurance cover/legality in the UK (which is the scope of my reply above) for evidence one could delve deeper, should on be so inclined, to reveal the result of the 'Smart car on fire' whilst A framing.  IIRC the car was burnt out as a result of it not being set up correctly......the specifics of which I know not but recall it was relative to the Smart car not being set up correctly.  It would be interesting to know if 'A' The police prosecuted and 'B' If the insurance company paid out.  At least then we would have a degree of clarity as to how 'A' framing is viewed in at least one region of the UK.

 

These O&AL forum threads relating to the Smart-car fire incident are still viewable (some threads were Moderator-removed)

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Armitages-Smart-Car-burns-/23831/

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Armitages-and-Smart-Car-fire-/24797/

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Armitages-of-Ferrybridge-A-Frame-and-Smart-Car-Fire-/26156/

 

‘Locksmith’ (whose Smart burned) has not logged on to this forum since January 2012, so the outcome of the incident insurance-wise may remain a mystery. For anyone who wants to do further investigation, it’s worth noting that details of the insurance-related controversy were posted to other motorhome forums.

[ham]

My comments where not is it illegal or legal. Just as the law stands If you commit an illegal act and then your insurance becomes involved your insurance could become invalid leaving you liable to any costs to yourself or third parties. Taking a JP magistrate’s view, your at risk if you tow an A frame and disregard the law of the country you are in.

[Derek Uzzell]

The Department for Transport’s 2011 A-frame-related guidance can be viewed here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

 

(As far as I’m aware there have been no changes to this advice since it was first provided.)

 

As a general principle national laws will apply to everyone who happens to be in a particular country at a particular time and there’s no persuasive reason to believe that the practice of towing a car on an A-frame behind a motorhome would be an exception.

[colin]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-01-16 6:39 PM

 

The Department for Transport’s 2011 A-frame-related guidance can be viewed here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408927/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

 

(As far as I’m aware there have been no changes to this advice since it was first provided.)

 

As a general principle national laws will apply to everyone who happens to be in a particular country at a particular time and there’s no persuasive reason to believe that the practice of towing a car on an A-frame behind a motorhome would be an exception.

 

There is one piece you have missed, since 2012 trailer legislation has changed, as explained in this doc.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/vehicle-type-approval/trailers/advice-for-companies-manufacturing-trailers.pdf

 

According to this there should be either whole vehicle type approval, or a IVA, to be legal, so I would advise anyone purchasing a new system to ask which approval has been sought.

[Derek Uzzell]

Colin

 

When type approval and revised braking regulations were to be applied to ‘conventional’’ trailers, there was speculation on motorhome forums whether this would impact on the A-framing practice in the UK. This was explored with the Department for Transport by an MHFacts member and the DfT’s response was that a towing-frame was not a trailer and, consequently, was not subject to type approval and would be unaffected by the regulatory changes.

 

The DfT's ruling was fairly widely publicised and is quoted on this link

 

http://www.ntta.co.uk/news/public/towing-with-aframes_39

 

I refer you to the final paragraph...

[StuartO]

  It surprises me that our Government have not so far been moved to introduce registration (and taxation) of trailers, as happens in some other countries.  Not like them to miss a taxation opportunity like that!

 

Maybe they won't bother as we leave the EU because it probably would open something of a Pandora's box.  There are lots of dodgy trailers in use in UK but probably mostly occassional or local use and I've not heard that there are lots of trailer-related accidents and certainly not fatalities. 

 

A Handyman/Builder we use has a really old, illegally unbraked trailer which he uses to carry sand etc a ton at a time in the local area behind his 3500kg van.  Realistically he's never going to do much harm with it, even if the chassis colapses or a wheel falls off.

 

A trailer carrying a car behind a MH on a motoway at 60 mph needs to be right of course.

 

[colin]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-01-17 8:38 AM

 

Colin

 

When type approval and revised braking regulations were to be applied to ‘conventional’’ trailers, there was speculation on motorhome forums whether this would impact on the A-framing practice in the UK. This was explored with the Department for Transport by an MHFacts member and the DfT’s response was that a towing-frame was not a trailer and, consequently, was not subject to type approval and would be unaffected by the regulatory changes.

 

The DfT's ruling was fairly widely publicised and is quoted on this link

 

http://www.ntta.co.uk/news/public/towing-with-aframes_39

 

I refer you to the final paragraph...

 

Indeed an Aframe is not a trailer, just as a bolt or a wheel is not a trailer, but once you fix it to the front of a car the whole becomes one, and this is quite clearly stated on the first sentence in the first doc you linked to.

A-frames

When an A-frame is attached to a vehicle (eg a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (eg motorhome) we believe the A-frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain.

It does not suprise me in the slightest that DfT directly contradict themselves, many government departments have been found wanting when it comes to interpreting or even implementing the law.

[Derek Uzzell]

The DfT’s 2011 opinion did indeed read as follows:

 

"When an A-frame is attached to a vehicle (eg a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (eg motorhome) we believe the A-frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer.”

 

However - as I’ve said so many times before - this does not indicate that the car+A-frame ACTUALLY becomes a “trailer”, it just means that (as far as the DfT was concerned) the combination could be classified as such within the UK’s legislative framework. But the car remains a car and the A-frame remains an A-frame. There may be type-approval issues regarding modifications to allow the car to be A-frame-towed, but type-approval does not apply to the A-frame itself.

 

Semantically, it’s obvious that motorcaravanners are perfectly able to distinguish between a car+A-frame combination and a trailer. If this were not the case the question in the original posting “Should I get an A-frame or trailer to take a smart car with my motorhome in France?” could not have been written because "A-frame” and “trailer” would be synonymous.