Frank McAuley Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Specifically I would appreciate opinion/experience re the 'new' Mercedes chassis and base veh of the HYMER MLTi-580 as opposed to the Alko chassis and Fiat base veh of other HYMERS please?I appreciate this may be a subjective issue but my first reaction is that the Alko chassis is the 'all-round' better choice but is that opinion still relevant?Again is it worth paying the extra for the ML1-580 as opposed to the cheaper MLT-580; prob another subjective question but there again other opinions/experience would be appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggy Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Hi Frank We have owned a Hymer `MLT 560 for nearly two years now (bought before Hymer MLI range was launched) the Mercedes part of the van is the best we have owned over 30 years as a base vehicle with the 2.2 163 bhp engine and the 7 speed auto drives great - however on both the MLT and MLI range beware the chassis is quite low with a considerable rear overhang behind the back axle - we have had to fit air suspension to the rear of the van as its so low with an underslung waste tank it has consistently grounded and taken big pieces out of the tank insulation. There are a number of us owners in the UK with either MLT 560's or 580's and we all have the same problem and have had to fit additional rear air suspension and both the UK Hymer dealers and Hymer themselves have refused completely to remedy the issue stating the van passes all approval testing. please take a test drive on a road with an uneven surface or camber and you will see what we mean especially when loaded as its designed perhaps to be driven only on a very flat and level road and to be parked on a perfectly flat and level campsite or aire. Wiggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Tyou so much for your reply which has been most helpful. I drove an MLi 580 a few days ago but it was on a dual carriageway with no cross winds and there was no grounding.I examined the rear of the chassis and noted the low slung tank and the overhang which caused me to raise the question ! The Mhome,in all other aspects, is excellent but the low level of the chassis coupled with the low slung tank caused concern. Prior to fitting the air suspension was your Hymer susceptible to cross winds or to heavy goods Vehs passing or being passed? If so did the fitting of the air suspension remedy that issue and the grounding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggy Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Hi again Frank My MLT doesn't have the crosswind assist that the latest MLT & MLI motorhomes have (which I believe brake individual wheels to control any crosswind gusts) and its not a problem as I'm an experienced driver you just steer into them and the van is low slung so not really an issue. The air assist suspension has cured the low level rear and grounding the tank I just have be aware on a rough road or speed bumps / ramps etc just have to put more air in to ensure the van won't ground the tank, Mercedes also have a spring hanger device that mechanically will raise the rear suspension about 50mm. In hindsight I wouldn't buy one of the MLT / MLI motorhomes without the ability to raise the rear of the van being included in the purchase and build in the cost of this (£1500 for Goldschmitt and £1000 for AS and the others etc with a compressor built in) Hope this helps Wiggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 Tyou once again- a massive help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 Hopefully you don't mind me seeking further opinion please:- If air assisted suspension was fitted to the rear is there still a need to fit Goldschmit springs to the front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer1942 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I have the very latest Mercedes Hymer ML-T 620. With crosswind assist it is excellent and not at all low. Drives like a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Tyou for reply. Is the grey water tank of your ML-620 located to the rear of the back axle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymer1942 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Hi, yes it is to the rear of the back axle but still about a foot clearance. Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 Tyou! Decision reached and money spent!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Ground clearance and and ground angles. Measure your loading clearance and have always extra attention in the rear motion. The rear is most critical.Air suspension can put you up front and rear and bring comfort. A motor home whit their low chassis heights is not made to run Paris Dakar. In that case you have to buy a mercedes 4WD UNIMOG. Most popular on air Alko-Vb-And golds-mitt my favorite . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 About the alko Amc torsion bar axle you can ask me anything just buy a three color pencil pen to make it clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 On my burstner I728g Aviano my 2015 is a so called high frame alko chassis fitted. This the highest (zero drop) and provides a flat walk trough floor from the cab. The lowest is 22cm lower. My version at the rear 15wheel 43 cm chassis rail ground clearance. The chassis rear drops after 78.cm long to 30cm ground clearence at its rear end Overhang 2154mm. And yes the waste tank is their somewhat lower. Anyway your comments are valid here.I go now for full air front/rear. Dont expect height miracles. alko premium x4 can do +5cm max here by pump-up their air assist. How many your air systems can do? And what should it be alko,goldsmitt, or VB ? I think taking the set ride height and air pressure they quite the same.And you have still to grease your axle.Alko has maintenance free axles but you pay 2000 euro extra for that price you can buy a lot grease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Full air suspension has a positive effect on cross winds. you can test-drive them at alko Germany- kotz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Just saw a recent video on you tube from goldsmitt on air suspension. In that video you see a sunlight T69 full air 4C fitted to a std fiat motorhome chassis there you see what it can do. Wonderful and much cheaper than alkochassis with air. look forward to your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJB Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 What is 'Tyou' all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Wiggy yes ground clearance is defined in EC truck rules by definition. Mostly defined to base structure of the chassis. There are no rules what they are building underneath in other words you may lost your water tank as long the base structure keeps intact. Sport cars outer skirts have almost zero. That does mean that a motorhome should be built with enough driving space. If you are off road like me on dog agility festival grounds in the grass lands we are often pulled away with tractors and a towing eye. No more traction and chassis grounded. Its all in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 Abbreviation for Thankyou! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Wake up full air drivers share your opinion if the price premium is worth the money. Can you pump up the jam if the compressor is dead. What is the long time parking pressure. What do you do if the air bags are ruptured in china. A alko x4 two ax is no longer driveable on two weak L/R torsion bars But you can drive if you understand some modern leak repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 The most significant difference between current Fiat Ducato-based Hymer motorhomes with Al-Ko chassis and Mercedes Sprinter-based Hymers is that the former vehicles are front-wheel-drive with independent rear-suspension, while the latter have rear-wheel-drive and non-independent rear suspension. A few years back Mercedes and Al-Ko cooperated in designing an Al-Ko chassis for the Mercedes Sprinter (in single or 'tag' rear-axle format) and a few Pilote Group Sprinter-based motorhome models were marketed with that chassis. As a completely different final-drive unit and independent rear suspension is involved, the extra expense of fitting a Sprinter with an Al-Ko chassis is considerable, but the option has apparently been revived for motorhomes and is mentioned here. http://www.camping-car-deluxe.com/actualites/al-ko-et-mercedes-de-nouveau-ensemble/ The ‘grounding’ problem with Hymer MLT models is not really due to there being an unusually small amount of clearance between the ground and the underside of the motorhome’s water-tanks enclosure, it’s because Hymer employs a metal tank-support structure that - if it catches on an obstruction - has a high likelihood of being damaged. As long as Hymer persists with this design of support structure, the potential for damage will continue to be present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 This is going to be nice topic Al-ko-V- others active in MH chassis with a house on it. A motor home can be defined as 50 percent pull structure being the front cap called ducato etc. The house and beds can be in that area above it. being a fwd van like the ducato . The other 50 percent is the chassis and rear wheel sunpension.solid ax. leafs etc well proven with a widened track in steel with coating. An alko is not perse stronger stronger but you pay the extra. That premium price built in will be 8000 euro for a single ax of moderate lenght chassis. Also you have independent steel torsion suspension and a better weight distribution due to the widened spread of the chassis.Plus you have original alko air assist designed for their chassis and you end up with the best ever on the market. The ducato engines have more flavor and improved on euro 6 with the 150 wirh a better gear box and extra 20 NM torque. the 3ltr is gone. I have no clou about mercedes, iveco etc in this market segment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 Thankyou Derek . Is there anything that can be done ,e.g., by a dealer to rectify this issue or to lesson the potential for damage; is there anything the owner/driver can do to lessen the possibility of damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dicksob Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Frank, I had a good look at the Mercedes, wanted to buy the 540Mli, looked at them in Germany and spoke to dealers there. As Derek says, this is the Hymer design, dealers there said best to add rear air but even then there might be issues in certain circumstances, they advised me to buy a fiat/Alko combo! However I have spoken to a number of owners who have had no issue at all, so as ever, you pay your money and take your chance! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 Thankyou Bill.Fitting of 'rear air' seems to be universally recommended but I'm amazed Hymer is so intractable on this issue! The possibility of 'issues in certain circumstances' is of note: can you expand on that please ( apologies at being so pedantic)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Frank I believe the Hymer Mercedes ‘grounding’ issue was fully covered in this earlier discussion http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Air-Suspension-on-Hymer-MLT/40333/ Mike Jago’s posting of 29 June 2016 4:20 PM on Page 2 of the thread http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Air-Suspension-on-Hymer-MLT/40333/31/ includes photos showing the inverted-U-section Hymer uses for the lateral metal ‘straps’ beneath the water-tank enclosure. It should be self-evident that the profile of these straps makes them more vulnerable to ‘catching’ on an obstruction than, say, if the straps were simply flat. Of course if the straps were flat they would be less rigid than the ones Hymer fits unless they were a thick gauge of metal and, if the metal were sufficiently thick to adequately support the tank enclosure, the flat straps would be much heavier than the Hymer ones. They’d also protrude some way from the enclosure’s underside, so might still catch on an obstruction. Basically, it’s easy to see why Hymer has adopted an inverted-U-section for the lateral straps and also easy to see why this might lead to the straps and tank enclosure becoming damaged if the straps happen to catch on an obstruction. Plainly if the ground clearance beneath the straps is increased the less likely grounding will happen and the more extreme an obstruction would need to be for the straps to contact that obstruction - but it’s possible to envisage a situation where (say) driving over a very high kerb might cause the straps to ‘catch’ even if a rear ‘air assist’ system were fitted and the motorhome’s rear raised. As I suggested in the earlier thread, it ought to be possible to replace the straps with some sort of sheet-metal undertray that would support the tank enclosure and not catch on an obstruction even if ‘grounding’ occurred. But it would be unrealistic to expect Hymer (or a Hymer dealership) to do this just because an owner thought it was a good idea. As you’ve apparently committed to buying a new Mercedes-based Hymer, your choice seems to be either to live with the standard Hymer specification or to have a rear ‘air assist’ system fitted. As the ‘problem’ is at the vehicle’s rear I can’t see why there shoud be any need to alter anything at the vehicle’s front end. When I looked under one of these Mercedes-based Hymer motorhomes, I didn’t think the ground clearance was unusually small. I’ve seen many new motorhomes with very little clearance under the chassis (and not just at the rear end) and where it seemed almost inevitable that things like waste-tank drains would be knocked off when going on or off a ferry. Although it’s clear that there’s a risk of damage occurring if the under-tank straps ‘ground’, I suspect that the problem has been highlighted because a) the motorhomes are Hymers and b) Mercedes-based. Marry Hymer’s and Mercedes’s individual reputations for quality and anyone buying one of these motorhomes will have a very high expectation. I'm sure a lot of Ducato-based motorhomes with ultra-low Al-Ko chassis scrape badly on obstructions, but owners don’t seem to complain bitterly about this, possibly because they think that Fiats are cheap and nasty and this is what’s to be expected. ;-) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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