Banner Leisure Batteries

[trail66]

Hi Anyone had any experience with Banner Leisure batteries failing suddenly. A Banner Leisure battery 100/110 Amp capacity was fitted to my 2014 Auto-Trail motorhome from new, Despite never being used off electric hook up and regular charging through out the winter i.e. the battery volts have never been allowed to drop below 12.7 volts, the battery suddenly failed dropping rapidly to 10 volts when the electric hook up was removed.

The charging system via the installed Sargent equipment i.e. EC500 and PX300 charger has been checked and works correctly as per design intent. Shutdown current drain on leisure battery measured at 20ma (0.02 amps) which is negligible and within expected loss to system. The battery was removed charged with different charger and would not accept any meaningful charge.

Conscious the battery is only 3.5 years old and never been through a discharge cycle I would have hoped it would have lasted longer than this! Most Leisure batteries I have owned in the past have lasted over 5 years with 'off electric hook up' use.

Not too sure if I will try another new Banner battery or maybe try a different manufacturer. Any suggestions?

[lennyhb]

3½ years out of a Banner what are you complaining about, in my last van mine failed after 18 months and they wouldn't honor their warranty. Rubbish batteries.

[Robbo]

I assume your Banner battery is the unsealed type and needs periodic maintenance to top-up the electrolyte?

 

You need a special tool to remove the cap to each cell - only available from Banner :D

 

Tend to agree with Lenny, my Banner AGM's only lasted 2 years.

 

I would try a different manufacturer, possible Varta LFD90 as recommended by our epic contributor, Allan of Aandncaravan services (sadly not posting at the moment because of health issues).

 

Hope it's only "au revoir" Allan and you'll be back once you've made a full recovery. Wishing you well for the future.

[Alanb]

Robbo - 2017-09-28 12:06 PM

 

I assume your Banner battery is the unsealed type and needs periodic maintenance to top-up the electrolyte?

 

You need a special tool to remove the cap to each cell - only available from Banner .

 

 

I did not find it difficult to make a suitable tool from a scrap piece of steel.

 

Alan

[AndyLou]

My Banner battery had run very low on fluid when I checked it recently.

 

I used a chisel to open the screws as I did not have a screwdriver wide enough.

[Derek Uzzell]

Received wisdom is that the electrolyte-level of Banner “Energy Bull” batteries (lennyhb’s failed batteries were Banner AGM-type so non-maintainable) needs checking regularly as the level can drop more rapidly than might be anticipated, inevitably causing failure if the level drops too low.

 

The cell-cap seals used on “Energy Bull” batteries can make the caps difficult to undo and (as Robbo has advised) a special cap-undoing tool is marketed

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Banner-Battery-Cap-Opening-Tool-P9170.html

 

(Like Alanb I DIYed an undoing tool - from a scrap of duralumin in my case.)

 

Rapido - that fits Banner “Energy Bull” batteries as original equipment to their motohomes - suggests a leisure-battery lifespan of 3 years, but that will depend on how the battery is used and how it is cared for.

 

I’d expect a good deal more than three years and, if my Rapido’s Banner battery dies at 3.5 years, I’ll replace it with the Varta LFD90 battery Robbo mentions.

[Dr Dave]

My experience with banner batteries has been disappointing as per the following thread.

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Banner-batteries-again/45745/

Now i have invested in two Varta LFD90's and so far so good.

Dave

[silverback]

Hi because you were always on hook up i think you might have drained it of electrolyte, they say they are maintainance free but i have to top up yearly with distilled water at least 0.5 liter then i think you might need to take it off EHU now and again to make the batteries cycle and work because they like that, but this is just my opinion seems to have worked for us this passed 20 year. and make a tool eg flatten the end of a piece of copper tube then drill a hole in the other end to put a screw driver through to turn it.

regards Jonathan

[Derek Uzzell]

Banner has never stated that their Energy Bull batteries are maintenance-free.

 

It has been said on this forum that RoadPro (who sell Energy Bull batteries) in the distant past used to say that was the case, but this 2013 RoadPro file

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/userfiles/PDFs/product%20information/Batteries/Banner%20Batteries%20FAQs.pdf

 

advises as follows

 

"Question) Do I need to check my Banner batteries?

 

Answer) Banner “Running Bull” AGM batteries are completely maintenance free. “Energy Bull” batteries don’t require maintenance in normal use; however, ideally you should check the electrolyte levels a couple of times during the first year in order to ensure that they are being charged correctly. From then on, it’s a good idea to check them once a year. “Energy Bull” batteries are designed so that you can check the electrolyte levels by simply looking through the transparent case. If the plates are covered by electrolyte, no topping up is required.”

 

Banner Energy Bull batteries have a translucent case, not a transparent one, and - if the battery is housed in a battery-box or in a difficult to reach location - identifying the electrolyte-level will not be a matter of “simply looking through the transparent case”. My Rapido’s Energy Bull battery stands in the motorhome’s rear garage but, despite shining a powerful torch through the side of the battery’s case, I have still never been able to identy the electrolyte-level satisfactorily and always check this by removing the cell-caps.

 

Forum threads that relate to the ‘maintenance-free’ issue can be found here

 

http://tinyurl.com/yageygou

 

I’m not sure about leisure batteries benefitting from being ‘exercised’ by being discharged/recharged. I think I recall this idea being put forward before on this forum, but I can’t remember the result. There has certainly been discussion about the merits (or otherwise) of leaving motorhomes continuously on a mains hook-up

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Why-shouldn-t-I-be-plugged-into-EHU-all-the-time-/39683/

 

I don’t think Auto-Trail’s handbook mentions leisure-battery electrolyte-level checking (How many handbooks do?) but trail66’s posting above indicates that some care was taken when exploring his Banner battery’s failure. If the battery’s electrolyte-level had never been checked since 2014 and the level had dropped significantly and caused the failure, I would have thought that the lack of electrolyte would have been noticed when the battery was removed for testing.

[aandncaravan]

Derek, I agree that Banner have never stated that the Energy Bull battery is maintenance free, but Roadpro have and did extensively in their marketing campaigns.

 

The Roadpro document you link to, and the adverts of the time up to around 2015, made statements that they don't require maintenance, it says -

 

“Energy Bull” batteries don’t require maintenance in normal use....".

 

That just isn't true. That incorrect statement sets the tone for the rest of the text. The text may go on to say they should still be checked, but the above, very, very false, statement categorically sets the tone suggesting that it isn't really necessary to check them under normal use.

 

The reality is that, under normal use, an Antimony based battery like the Energy Bull will require not just amongst the Highest maintenance of any mainstream Leisure battery, but requires exceptional maintenance compared to the best.

 

Banners own website of the time stated they DID require maintenance, and quite a bit of fluid could be used. Something which we pointed out at the time, and took a lot of flak for doing so.

Regardless of any interpretation, everyone I know took from the extensive advertising they were maintenance free and subsequently bought them.

 

Even the likes of Bailey and Murvi bought these batteries under this impression, yet it was never stated by Banner, such was the influence of the Retailer led marketing campaigns of the day.

 

 

But then if you go through the Roadpro sheet that you link to, there are so many false statements mistruths, like :

 

Q) Why does RoadPro only sell Banner batteries?

 

A) We have looked at most of the popular wet lead-acid “leisure batteries” commonly available to motorhomers, caravanners and boaters. Banner “Energy Bull” batteries are the only ones which are not simply starter batteries with fancy labels.

 

It is quite clear, that in their view, "Energy Bull" are the ONLY proper Leisure battery. They then go on to show some of the naffest 'Budgets' cut open. Not the best of breed for comparison?

 

The alleged 'battery comparison' also states,

 

"The “Energy Bull” is the only one whose design and construction is suitable for heavy cycling and it’s these features that make them ideal for use in caravans (especially when a motor-mover is being used)".

 

 

Not only are there better/cheaper batteries for Caravans, but almost everyone knows that a Starter Battery is far better at powering the high and long current draw of a Motor Mover. Leisure batteries with thick plates were designed for delivering a little current over a long period, not big currents over minutes.

 

Also false is the statement that the Banner Energy Bull was the optimum battery for a Caravan, most of which spend their time on EHU, and an Antimony based battery just like the Banner Energy Bull, is the WORST for such a purpose as they will suffer from Antimony poisoning (see bottom of text) with even higher fluid loss and resultant very, very short life.

As many Motorhomes now also spend 24/7 with a Solar paower 'trickle charge', they are far from the perfect modern battery.

 

 

The document also states :

 

"Usually, the batteries we supply were made within the previous 6 months but we cannot definitely guarantee this. However, it is not correct to say that a battery older than 6 months will be less efficient. As long as the battery has not been allowed to sulphate (and this will normally only happen if a battery is less than 25% charged) an unused battery that’s 12-months old will perform just as well as one that’s 12-weeks old".

 

Again this just isn't true, especially so for the Banner Energy Bull which discharges faster than almost any mainstream Leisure battery. It will quickly discharge down to damaging levels.

Where have you ever read that a battery will only sulphate, "if a battery is less than 25%"? Any battery that is partially discharged for any length of time will deteriorate.

 

 

However, the statement we really took issue with at the time was the very dangerous claim about venting.

 

Roadpro, in the same document, write :

Q) Do I need to put a venting tube on my battery?

 

A) A vent pipe is used to clear gases away from a battery so that they vent externally. “Energy Bull” batteries don’t need to do this as they are “recombination batteries” and gas internally. A normally operated battery has no need to be vented under normal circumstances.

 

 

Not only was the banner Energy Bull NOT a claimed "recombination Battery" (nor ever claimed to be by Banner) but was actually about the biggest opposite of one you could imagine. As stated above the Banner Energy Bull is one of the most 'Gassing' batteries in the market.

Everything you now read about the Banner wet batteries is how many Litres of lost fluid there have been, so logic tells you it has been lost, it has been outside the battery.

If they are batteries that "recombine the Hydrogen and Oxygen back into water", they are pretty rubbish at it.

 

For any battery retailer to advise :-

"A normally operated battery has NO NEED to be vented under normal circumstances", is dangerous and foolhardy. It goes against every thing you will read that is safety biased.

 

To apply this to a battery type with the construction of the Energy Bull is absolutely mad because it vents so much explosive Hydrogen/Oxygen. Just a 4% mix is explosive, let alone the nasty corrosive nature of the gas expelled.

 

They then compounded this stupidity by the following :

 

Q) Is it safe to put wet lead-acid batteries inside a vehicle – under the front seats for example?

 

A) As long as the batteries are in good condition and held securely in place and the vehicle’s charging system is working correctly, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t have batteries under the seats.

 

Remember this is a question SPECIFICALLY about WET batteries. Along with the advice of 'no need to vent externally' paints a terrible picture

 

 

We still get people today saying they specifically choose 'open vent' Energy Bull batteries for fitment under a Drivers/Passenger seat because of Roadpro's claims.

 

 

The document goes on with more rubbish, like :

 

Q) Why do you not sell maintenance-free leisure batteries?

 

A) Most modern batteries will be maintenance free if they’re used as recommended by the manufacturer. Because a “leisure” battery is often discharged much more than is recommended and much more often as well, you simply cannot have a “maintenance-free” “leisure” battery unless it’s an AGM or gel model.

 

 

Yet we pointed out at the time that Varta and Bosch Powerframe were both claiming 100%, "absolutely" maintenance free for their Habitation batteries.

 

 

 

They then publish a 'Battery Discharge' chart that can only have come from a Battery retailer. It suggests that only dropping BELOW 11.3v and 20% should be considered 'a Danger' point!!

 

Yet most manufacturers charts list 12.2v/50% discharge as the maximum depth of discharge level, so anything below 12.1v will be damaging a battery.

Requiring you to soon buy another, from a battery retailer...................?

 

 

We took all this up at the time with Banner themselves (Both UK and the European heads) and they promised, and did, provide additional guidance to retailers.

 

 

 

 

While Banner did nothing wrong, hindsight shows others mis-sold the battery and anyone who has a suffered a failure thinking the battery would perform 'As claimed by the retailer', has a right to a full refund.

 

 

 

Derek, the Banner Energy Bull is so inappropriate for almost all Caravans and many Motorhomes for many reasons from high self discharge to high fluid loss and Antimony poisoning from long term EHU/Solar that very few made it past 2 years before expiring.

 

However, in our experience many, although not expired, were also past their best before 18 months had passed, down to less than 80% efficiency.

 

I would be willing to bet 1p that your battery is the same, despite it 'holding a charge'?

 

In the interests of 'Science' would you be prepared to fully charge it, leave it two weeks to settle, and then discharge it to 50% and see how many real Amphours it delivers?

While you think your battery is a good one, I would happily donate £10 to a Charity of your choice if it delivers even 70% of it's new capacity.

 

I ask you as you are exceptionally Technically able so have the skills to set up a representative test.

Alternatively we would be happy to buy it from you to carry out testing, as a Energy Bull 3 years old that is still 'Good' is rare.

 

 

 

 

Explanation of Lead-Antimony Poisoning.

"Lead-Antimony alloys are not well suited for stand-by service (long term Float charging).

The phenomenon of Antimony-poisoning where antimony from the grid alloy forms small discharge points on the negative plate surface is a direct result of continuous charging.

 

This results in a continuously increasing float current and water consumption over the life of the battery. The rate of antimony poisoning is directly related to the operating temperature, charging voltage and the antimony content of the alloy".

 

 

More on 'How a battery works' here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-battery-work.php

 

[Keithl]

Allan,

 

Another fantastic post with very useful info.

 

Thank you for your continued support on the forum.

 

Keith.

 

PS My Varta LFD90 is now over 6 years old and still seems to be holding up fine!

[Guest pelmetman]

Another vote for the Varta's from me, just had another LFD75 delivered to replace the 110 battery in the Carlight caravan B-) .......

 

So now have 3 to play with .....have to say the service from Battery Megastore was faultless to :D ......

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Keith, can you tell I am now getting bored?

 

 

Pelmetman, you are very lucky having a Carlight Caravan, I worked on my first, a Cassetta, about 5 years ago and was astonished at the quality of the construction.

We had an email in the week from someone who had bought two Varta LFD75's (not from the same Battery retailer as you) and one was quite new and 'up to charge' but the other was very low on volts. Turned out to be over 2 years old.

 

So can we suggest you check the voltage on yours before you use it?

 

 

May we remind everyone the importance of the battery being fresh? The Varta LFD90 is likely to be less of an issue as it is the most popular size so turnover will be higher and it stays charged for a year, but even so check it.

 

Someone told me the other day, not sure if it is true, that if you buy a Bosch battery and it fails within Warranty, you can return it to any Bosch battery dealer. It doesn't need to go back to the supplying retailer, making buying online from the likes of Tayna Batteries and Battery Megastore that little bit easier than some.

 

Does anyone know if that is true and if the same applies to Varta Batteries?

 

 

Marcs edited email went like this :

"I have just bought a Varta LFD75 battery for my Hymer....

It arrived and needed some charging. On contacting Varta, they informed me that the battery was manufactured in May 2015, 28 months ago.

I don’t want to be a “unreasonable customer”, but is that not a little old to have been sitting in a stock room?"

 

 

We said reject it.

 

It subsequently turned out well and Marc wrote back,

"Varta have gone onto note (as a general observation - I bought two; one being manufactured in 2017):

"if the batteries are being fitted as a pair then the batteries need to be from the same batch or at least be somewhere near in production date. Batteries manufactured six months apart, will result in the older battery taking the brunt of the discharge and charging and generally fails quicker than the newer one".

 

You might interpret the above Varta statement as being at odds with Roadpro's assertion that, "an unused battery that’s 12-months old will perform just as well as one that’s 12-weeks old"?

 

 

If anyone is buying two batteries to 'pair up', maybe it is worth mentioning that point to your battery retailer and noting their response?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

aandncaravan - 2017-09-30 5:41 PM

 

Keith, can you tell I am now getting bored?

 

 

Pelmetman, you are very lucky having a Carlight Caravan, I worked on my first, a Cassetta, about 5 years ago and was astonished at the quality of the construction.

We had an email in the week from someone who had bought two Varta LFD75's (not from the same Battery retailer as you) and one was quite new and 'up to charge' but the other was very low on volts. Turned out to be over 2 years old.

 

So can we suggest you check the voltage on yours before you use it?

 

 

I'd check it if I knew how and had the gadget to do it, but after nearly 30 years a moho owner I'm happy with just a recommendation ;-) .......that said I've never had a battery fail after just 18 months or 5 years, so I must be due a duffer :D ......

 

Re the Carlight, I have for once in my lifetime got a absolute bargain .......a 1994 Carlight Commander for 3k.....before they went bust in 2014 they were 45K ........

 

Maybe I'm a bit weird but I did go around and check the screws were all pointing in the same direction :$ ......

 

Although the previous novice owner who bought it as their first caravan was responsible for repairing a sagging entrance door hinge with wall plugs 8-) ......

 

BTW do hope you don't get bored with this forum ;-) ........

 

As I for one appreciate your input whether DC or AC :D ......

 

 

[aandncaravan]

pelmetman - 2017-09-30 6:30 PM

 

 

 

As I for one appreciate your input whether DC or AC :D ......

 

 

 

Definitely DC, nothing Alternating about me!!

Also Direct and straight to the point.

:->

[Guest pelmetman]

aandncaravan - 2017-09-30 7:36 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-09-30 6:30 PM

 

 

 

As I for one appreciate your input whether DC or AC :D ......

 

 

 

Definitely DC, nothing Alternating about me!!

Also Direct and straight to the point.

:->

 

Just like me B-) ........

 

Although speaking your mind can annoy some on here (lol) ......

 

 

 

 

[Mickt]

I use molegrips with a 20 pence coin as a toll for undoing battery caps

[aandncaravan]

silverback - 2017-09-29 10:00 PM

 

Hi because you were always on hook up i think you might have drained it of electrolyte, they say they are maintainance free but i have to top up yearly with distilled water at least 0.5 liter then i think you might need to take it off EHU now and again to make the batteries cycle and work because they like that, but this is just my opinion seems to have worked for us this passed 20 year. and make a tool eg flatten the end of a piece of copper tube then drill a hole in the other end to put a screw driver through to turn it.

regards Jonathan

 

 

You should not "make the batteries cycle and work" unnecessarily. The less work a Lead Acid battery does, the longer it will last, if maintained correctly.

Wet Lead Acid batteries in Data Centre battery back up solutions have typically 15 year lives and many sit there rarely being ever called upon.

 

If you 'cycle and work' them too deep they will suffer shortened life.

 

 

A NiCad battery can sometimes benefit from being cycled, but not Lead Acid.

 

 

 

 

[silverback]

aandncaravan - 2017-10-01 2:02 PM

 

silverback - 2017-09-29 10:00 PM

 

Hi because you were always on hook up i think you might have drained it of electrolyte, they say they are maintainance free but i have to top up yearly with distilled water at least 0.5 liter then i think you might need to take it off EHU now and again to make the batteries cycle and work because they like that, but this is just my opinion seems to have worked for us this passed 20 year. and make a tool eg flatten the end of a piece of copper tube then drill a hole in the other end to put a screw driver through to turn it.

regards Jonathan

 

 

You should not "make the batteries cycle and work" unnecessarily. The less work a Lead Acid battery does, the longer it will last, if maintained correctly.

Wet Lead Acid batteries in Data Centre battery back up solutions have typically 15 year lives and many sit there rarely being ever called upon.

 

If you 'cycle and work' them too deep they will suffer shortened life.

 

 

A NiCad battery can sometimes benefit from being cycled, but not Lead Acid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

with due respect Allan, tosh, rubbish, we are in motorhomes they have to be cycled because we use them, and a battery manufacturer sell there batteries on how many cycles they can do ie. 400 to 700 and i was commenting on why his bats had failed cos he was on EHU all the time, you even have a thread on it why you shouldn't be on EHU all the time, even if he was to un hook and leave them for a week would be benificial, we run motorhomes not data centres and as i said this is just my opinion, cos i am an engineer not an electrician but it has worked for me 20 years

regards Jonathan

[aandncaravan]

Cycling a battery is deliberately discharging it and then recharging it. That uses up one cycle, which we are saying is best saved for when needed, not just running a battery down for the sake of it. Hence the important word in my text "unnecessarily".

 

 

I didn't realise the OP was permanently on EHU, he wrote

"Despite never being used off electric hook up and regular charging through out the winter i.e. the battery volts have never been allowed to drop below 12.7 volts...........".

 

I read that as being on hook-up when using the van, not all the time. The fact he says 'with regular charging, rather than "permanent' charging, suggests it wasn't connected all the time.

He also says the battery never dropped below 12.7v so again I assumed if it was allowed to drop it couldn't have been on permanent charge?

 

Maybe my interpretation is wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Internet-forum discussions are not conversations.

 

trail66 (the original poster) said that the Banner leisure-battery in his 2014 Auto-Trail motorhome failed after 3.5 years.

 

It was assumed (probably correctly, but who knows?) that the failed battery was a Banner “Energy Bull” and this assumption spawned comments about the need to regularly check the electrolyte-level of “Energy Bull” batteries. If this was not done during the 3.5 year period and, consequently, the electrolyte-level in trail66’s battery dropped to a point where the battery died, insufficient electrolyte was the cause of the failure. However, if the electrolyte-level had been periodically checked during the 3.5 year period and topped up if necessary, the failure cannot be attributed to an insufficient amount of electrollyte.

 

It’s a waste of effort arguing over semantics and/or crystal-ball gazing. For instance, what does “...never been through a discharge cycle...” mean in the original posting without the poster explaining?

 

Feedback from trail66 would help to remove some of the guesswork, but as his last forum logon was when the original posting was made (28 September) such information seems unlikely to be forthcoming.

 

[trail66]

Hi Thank you to all who replied to my post on Banner batteries. To clarify (regarding the last post comments) no the battery was not topped up by me during the 3.5 year period, whether it was checked on the service (it is part of the service check sheet) I doubt it. Despite my reservations I went out and bought a replacement Banner battery, reading all your helpful comments I have obviously made a poor error of judgement!!. I have posted today, conscious of the above regarding water level checks, a request on the best way to check the battery levels in situ. Thanks again to all who contributed to this post.

[RFC7]

Good morning from sunny mid-Devon.

 

I just picked up a quote you made in your Sept 30th post regarding screw slots all facing the same way.

it made me smile and brought back memories of the early days of my 5 year Marine Engineering Apprenticeship in Avonmouth Dry Dock.

I clearly recall the workshop foreman asking me if I wanted to go through life as a vertical or horizontal engineer, he then explained these were the only two options on offer and I needed to choose. At the time I was replacing the 1" thick X 15" diameter piece of glass in a Portlight (non-marine types say porthole!) the glass was secured by a flat 15" dia brass ring, held in place by 12 large flat head brass countersunk screws, which when tightened ensured a watertight seal from the bedding compound used.

The foreman was, of course, referring to the slots in the heads of the 12 screws, he wanted to see them all one or the other, and definitely NOT facing in all directions, I opted for horizontal, and was then told never to forget that decision!

From that day on, I have never left a slotted screw head in any other position except horizontal, of course, vertical, is also permitted, so long as all the screw slots are facing North !!

So that's how you can tell if a job has been done by a cowboy or a professional !!.

 

Then some bright spark invented Pozzi drive heads and SCREWED the whole monitoring system up

 

RFC7

Straight as a die !

[Willum]

I've had my fair share of expensive mistakes with batteries, including supposed maintenance-free items. If it's of any help:

I replaced mine with the biggest AGM versions I could get in the hole. I went to a yacht chandler and bought Rolls batteries. They are quite pricey but I fitted them 4 years ago and they have been used a great deal. We lived in the van for the first year, then for at least 6 months a year after that. We regularly use a 1500 watt inverter and often rely on the batteries - off hook up - with the solar to charge them. There is to date no sign of distress, at all.

The only other battery I ever had that stood the test of time was a big Varta. I still have it, 9 years later, running a UPS for my computer system. It's mate, a mismatch of a different make, in the camper when I bought it, failed years ago.

Go for a Yachty's battery. They tend to be good quality and stand more abuse. They have to.

Will

[ajpepe72]

stumbled on this thread and I also have a pair of energy bulls that no longer deliver a decent current.

partly my own fault as the electrolyte was just below the tops of the plates so I obviously didn't check them regulary enough.

anyway im in the market for new batteries. im being drawn to the trojan T105 6v batteries (wires in series to 12v obvs) they are about £10 more expensive than my banners were and the plates inside them look very substantial and the cycle life is apparently greatly higher than the banners.

 

Any input on the t105.s ?