Banner batteries again

[Dr Dave]

After so many threads about Banner batteries and there longevity i thought i would share my experience of these premium batteries. I purchased a banner low profile energy bull in Sept 2014 when it was delivered the Terminal Voltage was 12.45 Volts according to Banner the battery should be charged when the voltage is 12.5 Volts! so charged it was as recommended 24 hours at 16 Volts (banners advice) the battery was fitted and has been really looked after no inverters or high current discharge and with 80 watts of solar and regular top up charge with the voltage and discharge current carefully monitored. The result of this is after just two years this battery which cost £114 is no longer able to hold its charge with a 4 amp load the voltage is down to 12.1 Volts after 3 hours the battery has lost its capacity. This experience is comparable with the cheap no name starter battery that was its predecessor. I intend purchasing Varta or Bosch batteries in future and would never recommend Banner batteries.

[spospe]

Have Banner offered any replacement under warranty?

[EJB]

I've never seen a charging voltage as high as 16 volts for 24 hours.

 

The highest my CTEK charges is 15.8 for either 2 or 4 hours...depending on the selected programme?

 

For what it's worth? :-)

[lennyhb]

Sounds par for the course with Banner batteries biggest crap ever made and the don't honor their warranties absolute s*it company.

[lennyhb]

spospe - 2016-11-05 11:12 AM

 

Have Banner offered any replacement under warranty?

Don't be silly, banner honor a warranty, you live in hope and would you want another crap battery?

[colin]

My experience, the van came in 2011 with a Banner battery fitted, I believe it's AGM (gives you a clue as to the maintenance I give it ;-) ), it still works fine.

 

[Dr Dave]

The Banner website advise before fitting from the website.

[rolandrat]

I recently had to replace both my Banner 110amp batteries which weren't quite 2 years old because they refused to hold their charge. To be sure that they were u/s I removed both of them and charged them up individually on my garage charger. I then tested each one and none had held any charge at all. I have since replaced them and all is well.

[Derek Uzzell]

Banner’s advice on battery charging can be read on Page 46 of the following document from which Dr Dave has copied the relevant section.

 

http://www.bannerbatteryfinder.co.uk/system/files/26_promotion.pdf

 

Banner “Energy Bull” batteries retailed by RoadPro are apparently warranted for 3 years

 

http://tinyurl.com/pvlknq9

 

whereas the warranty duration quoted here

 

http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/banner-leisure-batteries/

 

is 4 years.

 

I don’t know what tests could be carried out to indicate whether an “Energy Bull” battery has just failed or might have been subjected to ‘inappropriate use’. These are not starter or dual-purpose batteries, so a 'drop-test’ that might be used for Banner’s AGM or gel batteries would not seem to be suitable.

 

As Dr Dave knows that he has treated his Banner battery carefully the initial step should be to contact the battery’s vendor (which will be a retailer not Banner itself) and - assuming that his battery was sold with an at least 3-year warranty - make an under-warranty claim.

[lennyhb]

rolandrat - 2016-11-07 7:58 PM

 

I recently had to replace both my Banner 110amp batteries which weren't quite 2 years old because they refused to hold their charge. To be sure that they were u/s I removed both of them and charged them up individually on my garage charger. I then tested each one and none had held any charge at all. I have since replaced them and all is well.

 

Exactly the same as mine, they lasted 18 months one would deliver 10a/h the other 11a/h.

Because Banner market their AGM's as a dual purpose battery the will only replace them if they fail a starter battery test which is totally different to the use cycle of a leisure battery, despite promoting them for leisure use.

Banner are sa load of crooks.

 

If you search the German forums you will see just how bad they are.

[spospe]

If Banner are so bad, what is the Forum's recommendation as a replacement, both from a battery performance point of view and that of the company honouring any guarantee?

 

 

[lennyhb]

Replaced mine with Sonnenschein Gel batteries, they are part of the Exide group and make the Exide Gel batteries, expected life of a Gel is 5 years + many still going 8-10 years old.

 

Edit:

If using Gel's your charger must have the correct charge regime.

[Rayjsj]

Dr Dave - 2016-11-05 9:52 AM

 

After so many threads about Banner batteries and there longevity i thought i would share my experience of these premium batteries. I purchased a banner low profile energy bull in Sept 2014 when it was delivered the Terminal Voltage was 12.45 Volts according to Banner the battery should be charged when the voltage is 12.5 Volts! so charged it was as recommended 24 hours at 16 Volts (banners advice) the battery was fitted and has been really looked after no inverters or high current discharge and with 80 watts of solar and regular top up charge with the voltage and discharge current carefully monitored. The result of this is after just two years this battery which cost £114 is no longer able to hold its charge with a 4 amp load the voltage is down to 12.1 Volts after 3 hours the battery has lost its capacity. This experience is comparable with the cheap no name starter battery that was its predecessor. I intend purchasing Varta or Bosch batteries in future and would never recommend Banner batteries.

 

My 2014 purchased Banner energy bull 110ah battery also failed earlier this year, with a cell shorting and generating heat, brewing off most of the liquid. Luckily i kept the receipt from Alpha batteries, and it had a 4 year warranty, they replaced it without a quibble, didnt even want the old battery back for testing, which i thought was strange ? My motto, keep the receipts !

[Derek Uzzell]

My 2015 Rapido has a Banner “Energy Bull” battery. Rapido suggests 3 years as the expected lifespan of a leisure-battery and, if my motorhome’s Banner battery fails before 3 years are up, I shall discuss replacement with the dealership from which I purchased the vehicle. I don’t know what the response would be, but there would be little point me contacting Rapido or Banner until I had discovered what the dealership said.

 

Purchasing a Banner battery from a retailer is rather different. The battery should be warranted and the duration of the warranty should be known by the buyer. The terms and conditions of the warranty may not have been explicitly stated by the retailer, and it should be expected that proof of purchase will be asked for when making an under-warranty claim.

 

As I said earlier, if it were suggested by a retailer that a purchaser have an Energy Bull battery tested, I don’t what type of test would be demanded. This is something that might be worth exploring with Banner Batteries(GB). Contact details are towards the bottom of this document

 

http://www.bannerbatteryfinder.co.uk/system/files/31_promotion.pdf

 

It might also be worth mentioning (diplomatically) to Banner Batteries(GB) that Banner batteries generally, when installed in motorhomes, have now gained a reputation among the motorhome-owning community (and not just in the UK) for poor longevity and performance.

[mikemelson]

I was about to replace my 2 85ah leisure batteries with Energy Bulls, after reading Dr Dave's post & others, I've obviously changed my mind.

The problem is......What to buy????, It seems like they're all as bad as each other.

Charles Sterling (he of Sterling Power) recommends cheap batteries, Says AGM & Gel are a waste of money.

I'm away on extended trips abroad but haven't got the room for 2 deep traction batteries.

Can you guys on here recommend any normal batteries which are reliable?

 

http://www.sterling-power.eu/support-faq-2htm

 

[keninpalamos]

Charles Sterling is a good company and produce some excellent items for the marine industry some of which can be adapted for motorhome use. I have an inverter, a battery to battery charger with a remote control/information unit and a ship to shore charger, ie a charger we use on hook up or mains if you like and all Sterling products. I made room for 2 6 volt 245Ah Trojan batteries wired in series to give 12v at 245Ah. They are kept topped up by 250 watts of solar power on the roof They are open cell wet batteries and are rather heavy plus you have to keep them topped up ,( Water) say once a month, which is not so good but I have had them now for something like 8 years and are still going strong. Im not sure all this stuff would work so well with modern motorhome electric systems

[lennyhb]

mikemelson - 2016-11-09 11:31 AM

 

The problem is......What to buy????, It seems like they're all as bad as each other.

Charles Sterling (he of Sterling Power) recommends cheap batteries, Says AGM & Gel are a waste of money.

He has very biased views, most of us who have had Gel batteries have nothing but praise for them.

My last van had Gel's they were still perform like new at neary six years old. Replaced the Banners with Gel's in current van and have arranged for dealer to swap my batteries over in the new van when it arrives as I do not want an AGM again.

[Steve928]

mikemelson - 2016-11-09 11:31 AM

 

The problem is......What to buy????, It seems like they're all as bad as each other.

Charles Sterling (he of Sterling Power) recommends cheap batteries, Says AGM & Gel are a waste of money.

 

 

I've followed his advice re cheap batteries, as I use his charging products, and have had good results.

 

On the boat the 'house' battery bank is a pair of these ultra-cheap, open, flooded batteries at £50 a pop.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Leisure-Battery-679-Powerline-CaravanLeisureMarine-Battery-P7714.html

They're now 5 years old and seem to be as good as new; each individual battery will still run the compressor fridge for 24 hours without a problem, plus provide enough ooomph (technical term) to start both Eberspacher heaters. They're charged by a Sterling 20A charger of c. 2005 vintage on EHU and an Adverc controller under-way and have never needed topping-up.

 

In the van I use a Sterling B2B charger and the OE Banner has been augmented by another cheapy in the low profile size for the princely sum of £44;

https://www.tayna.co.uk/XV190MF-Powerline-Leisure-Battery-P8959.html

18 months on I can't fault it and when the Banner dies another Powerline will replace it.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

mikemelson - 2016-11-09 11:31 AM

 

I was about to replace my 2 85ah leisure batteries with Energy Bulls, after reading Dr Dave's post & others, I've obviously changed my mind.

The problem is......What to buy????, It seems like they're all as bad as each other.

Charles Sterling (he of Sterling Power) recommends cheap batteries, Says AGM & Gel are a waste of money.

I'm away on extended trips abroad but haven't got the room for 2 deep traction batteries.

Can you guys on here recommend any normal batteries which are reliable?

 

http://www.sterling-power.eu/support-faq-2htm

 

 

Mike, There is a lifetime battery study which we have published on our website that reports on the use of thousands of batteries over many years.

In the industry covered by the document a Wet Acid battery typically lasts 20 years (these are ultra high quality, very expensive industrial batteries with guaranteed 20 year llves).

 

AGM and Gel batteries typically had a less than 5 year life. Yet these were also very expensive '20 year life' batteries that manufacturers initially claimed would have 20 year lives, but have now been down graded by many manufacturers to just 5 years.

In the study, AGM/Gel life was found to be typically 3 - 5 years even though the equivalent Wet battery version was 20 years. A 'claim' of a 20 year life gives you an idea of the quality of these Gel/AGM batteries, yet they still didn't live up to the hype.

Imagine how good a Motorhome specific AGM/Gel battery at a third of the cost is going to be?

 

The report states :

"Many VRLA (primarily Gel/AGM) batteries are installed throughout the world and the industry is beginning to acknowledge that a 20 year VRLA battery life is unlikely to be realized. Recent industry experience indicates that a 4 to 7 year VRLA battery life is more likely, regardless of cell size or warranty claims".

 

 

The report is interesting in that it shows the primary cause of battery failure as corrosion of the Positive Plate.

86% of Wet battery failures were from Grid corrosion.

AGM and Gel batteries, which some will tell you are not affected by corrosion, still suffered close on a 60% corrosion failure rate.

 

What I also found especially interesting was that 33% of GEL/AGM batteries died from 'Dry Out'.

 

The report goes on to say that in one study 64% of all the Gel/AGM batteries tested, failed :

"These cells were only 3 to 7 years old. The average failure rate was 64% for the entire tested population".

These were VRLA batteries from 9 different manufacturers, : " the failure rates ranged from 27% to 86%,

depending on the manufacturer".

In other words, one manufacturer had a failure rate of 27% and another a failure rate of 86%!!!!

 

If that doesn't put you off buying cheap batteries, I don't know what will.

 

 

If you want a battery that is going to last, suggest you look for one that doesn't suffer corrosion of the Plates.

This is something all batteries suffer from, apart from Powerframe Technology batteries, like the Varta LFD and Bosch L ranges.

 

 

 

HOW BIG WAS THE STUDY?

The report states that one part of the data came from :

"A European study of over 1,000 installations, of various system voltages and cell

capacities, containing about 35,000 cells...."

 

 

We have seen quite a few Installations and a lot of batteries, but not quite 35,000.

 

See the full report at the bottom of this page : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/resources/The%20Truth%20About%20Batteries%20-%20Battery%20Life.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Finally created a small image of the Battery Failure chart that has uploaded successfully :

[Derek Uzzell]

Allan

 

Are you in a position to comment on the early failure of Banner “Energy Bull” batteries that a worrying number of motorcaravanners seem to be complaining about?

 

If a motorcaravanner believes (or is led to believe) that an Energy Bull battery is maintenance-free and, as a consequence, the battery is allowed to ‘dry out’ and fails, that failure is not due to a fault with the battery as far as I’m concerned. (Blame might be directed towards Banner and/or motorhome manufacturers/dealerships for not better advertising that the electrolyte-level of Energy Bull batteries can drop significantly in normal use, but that’s another matter altogether.)

 

So, with Energy Bull batteries, do you know if it’s grid-corrosion that’s causing them to fail or something else?

[dipsticks]

I hope this information may be useful to someone on the battery choices subject.

 

Our 2007 Transit came new with an auxiliary battery fitted by Ford, a Varta 957 052 00 Semi-Traction Type (90ah) . This was used by Auto Sleeper as the ‘Habitation Battery’and as we wanted to operate without hook-up this was duplicated with another identical battery which I fitted under the passenger seat. I decided to go for Solar charging and fitted two panels (no more roof space for more) rated in total at 125W and controlled by a Morningstar SS-MPPT-15L Solar Regulator. I was attracted to this regulator by the equalize feature thus:-

 

Equalize (flooded battery type only) if the auto-equalize feature is enabled, the SS-MPPT will equalize a flooded battery for three (3) hours every 28 days. Equalize charging raises the battery voltage above the standard absorption voltage so that the electrolyte gasses. This process prevents electrolyte stratification and equalizes the individual cell voltages within the battery.

 

Plus the fact that I could fit a simple switch to alter the charging regime from Gel to Flooded battery type to reduce the absorption voltage from 14.4 to 14.0 volts when the van is laid up.

 

I have checked the electrolyte levels twice every year and on both occasions each battery has taken 0.7 litres of water so clearly quite a lot of gassing occurs.

I have never allowed the battery voltage to go any lower than 12.3 volts and after 9 years the batteries have never let me down and still seem to perform as new to me.

More by good luck than by technical know how I am very pleased with this performance and will definitely replace the batteries with the current type of Varta product. I don’t know what LFD means and am assuming that the batteries referred to above by Allan are the current type of equivalent of my Semi-Traction type.

 

The only thing that concerns me is what will happen when my existing 9 year old batteries decide they have had enough, will they suddenly go wrong or will they gradually lose their performance/ability to hold or be charged ?

 

[david lloyd]

mikemelson - 2016-11-09 11:31 AM

 

I was about to replace my 2 85ah leisure batteries with Energy Bulls, after reading Dr Dave's post & others, I've obviously changed my mind.

The problem is......What to buy????, It seems like they're all as bad as each other.

Charles Sterling (he of Sterling Power) recommends cheap batteries, Says AGM & Gel are a waste of money.

I'm away on extended trips abroad but haven't got the room for 2 deep traction batteries.

Can you guys on here recommend any normal batteries which are reliable?

 

http://www.sterling-power.eu/support-faq-2htm

 

Hi mike,

 

After returning from a winter stay in Spain last yeR in a motorhome we had only purchased just before leaving in December (and only 5 months old at the time) I wanted to fit a second leisure battery so sought advice on this forum. During the exchanges of posts it became clear that the 100ah Banner Energy Bull fitted under the passenger seat was wholly inappropriate as it was extremely difficult to access routinely to check the electrolyte levels and also was not vented to outside the habitation area.

 

In the end I chose to take the advice of Allan at aandncaravans and replace the Banner with two Varta LFD90 batteries which are maintenance free (although both are now vented to the outside as they occupy the underside of both cab seats) and are reputed to have superior technology to traditional batteries that should ultimately give me much better 12 volt capabilities. One significant advantage is that they were of similar size to the Banner so fitted beneath the seats.

 

During the summer I have had good service from them and they will be severely tested when we depart for Spain again this winter as we will be using many Aires during the trip.

 

I recommend you visit Allan's website (search for a and n caravans and click,on their Battery Technology link at the top of the home page) to read their findings on batteries as it is very informative before making your final decision on what to buy.

 

David

[aandncaravan]

Derek, I am not sure I am qualified to answer that as our battery evaluation work, where we cut open all the batteries we took in, mostly took place through 2012 and 2013.

Back then most of the failing Banner batteries were AGM, not Wet batteries, so not really a big enough sample of Banner 'wet' banner batteries to make any thing other than a guess. We did see several with high fluid loss and posted a warning on the website not to use them inside the Habitation area..

 

 

We did cut open a few Energy Bull batteries in 2015, but not that many. Of the ones we did cut open, I would have said that buckling plates was as big an issue as corrosion.

Again if I was asked to guess from the little evidence we saw, I would say it was down to the batteries being low on fluid and/or passing quite hefty currents.

 

Generally, when fluid loss occurs through gassing, corrosion is also taking place, so a battery that gasses is most likely suffering corrosion as well.

 

I don't know the technology inside a Banner Energy Bull but my guess would by it has a fairly high Antimony content. This old fashioned type of battery is prone to gassing more than most, unless the voltage is very carefully controlled to lower than average levels.

 

One thing Antimony batteries really don't like is continuous 'high' maintenance voltage when not being used. They are from the days of 13.8v mains chargers.

Many 'modern' mains chargers with 14.4v outputs are likely to gas an Antimony battery.

 

Likewise an Antimony battery on permanent 14.2v Solar charge is likely to lose quite a lot of fluid.

 

 

My guess would be that the Energy Bulls poor performance is down to the technology just not being suited to a modern Motorhome.

More suited to a Caravan from 2001 where it only got a 13.5v - 13.8v mains charge and rarely sees an Alternators 14.4volts. Even when it does get an Alternator charge, the voltage drop over 6 + metres of Car + Caravan cable that is also driving a 13a Fridge, usually means the battery gets well less than 14v.

 

 

I think Banner misunderstood the Market and applied 1980's technology that no longer fitted the 'new Motorhomes' profile.

 

 

As always, while they might fail very quickly for some, for others they might work well? You might find they are perfect, with long life, on a Motorhome that covers short journeys, isn't left on EHU in storage and doesn't have Solar.

 

 

 

Dipsticks, The type of battery you have, generally fails 'Short circuit', whereas Gel/AGM generally fail 'Open Circuit', see the chart above . So that is likely to be the ultimate scenario.

 

 

.

 

[aandncaravan]

Dr Dave, you say the Banner was only 12.4v on delivery?

Who was the supplier as that suggests the battery had been hanging around a long time in the shop and already 'damaged'?

That might part explain the short life?