Battery size/type

[david lloyd]

Hi everyone,

 

We have just collected our 2015 Chausson Welcome 717GA and I am unsure what ah the leisure battery is and also whether it is a wet or gel battery.

 

The Banner Bull battery is located under the passenger seat and I cannot see any indication of the ah rating. There is a label with some codes on which is also difficult to read so, before I resort to removing the seat, does anyone know what size and type of battery is fitted to this Chausson range as standard?

 

I have read through the booklets that came with the van and searched the Internet without success but I would like to make sure my dual solar regulator and the onboard charger are both set to the correct type of battery.

 

Many thanks,

David

[Robinhood]

..can't help with the spec, but can you manoeuvre a slim phone with a camera to a point where you can take a picture of the label?

 

Having said that, going by the catalogue (which I wouldn't like to rely on), the wet battery has a full blue top, the AGM one a full black top, and the Gel one a full grey top.

 

 

 

[Dave225]

I know it is a daft question but did you ask the supplying dealer? Usually they give a handover and if you are uinsure of anything a telephone call can suffice.

 

It seems to be common to fit 95 amp leaisure batteries for the habitaion, unless you specify simething a lot bigger yourself. Unless you plan on draining it excessively, this should be sufficient for normal needs. There should also be a set up charging system supplied by Chausson so you should not need to worry for a while.

 

If in doubt, lift the seat.

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2015-12-12 7:57 PM

 

..can't help with the spec, but can you manoeuvre a slim phone with a camera to a point where you can take a picture of the label?

 

Having said that, going by the catalogue (which I wouldn't like to rely on), the wet battery has a full blue top, the AGM one a full black top, and the Gel one a full grey top.

 

 

Although there’s no guarantee with Banner that the colour of the battery’s top and/or casing will accurately identify the type, it’s pretty certain that, if the battery’s top is blue it will be an “Energy Bull”.

 

Chausson’s User’s Manual

 

http://www.chausson-camping-cars.fr/wp-content/uploads/MANUEL-Chausson-2015-Anglais.pdf

 

says (Page 18)

 

"Additional battery

Our motorhomes use two types of batteries: lead-based and gel-based. It is up to you to decide on their respective advantages; your selection criteria, in particular utilization, will determine your choice. Depending on your choice, you MUST adapt the battery charger to the type of battery.”

 

This suggests that a buyer of a new Chausson motorhome can choose which type of battery is fitted - which may be the case in France (maybe!!) but not necessarily so in the UK.

 

If David’s battery is an “Energy Bull” it will probably be the 95751 100Ah product (as this seems to be the norm nowadays) and it ought to have a degassing tube fitted as referred to on Pages 21-23 of the Chausson User’s Manual.

 

As Dave225 says, if in doubt lift the seat.

 

(I’m not sure I’d want an “Energy Bull” battery hidden under a cab seat, as they are not ‘maintenance free’ and it would be wise to monitor the electrolyte level. But there you go...)

 

 

 

[david lloyd]

Thank you everyone. Derek you seem to be correct, the battery does have a blue top and the code on the white label on the top is 957 51. There are removed plugs on the top but I cannot see a degassing tube (which I presume comes from one side of the battery) either beneath the seat or editing beneath the floor.

 

I did not buy the van direct from the original Chausson supplier but when I asked the dealer who sold it he said it was a 110ah and the dual solar regulator has been set for a sealed battery type.

 

David

 

PS it is indeed an Energy Bull and I have just spoken to someone at Elite Motirhomes (the original Chausson supplying dealer) who confirm that it is most likely to be the standard battery they fit which would be a 100ah wet battery - the onboard charger should be set for this type but I will check that but will I have to change the setting on my solar regulator which is currently on 'sealed' battery type?

[keninpalamos]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-12-13 9:42 AM

 

Robinhood - 2015-12-12 7:57 PM

 

..can't help with the spec, but can you manoeuvre a slim phone with a camera to a point where you can take a picture of the label?

 

Having said that, going by the catalogue (which I wouldn't like to rely on), the wet battery has a full blue top, the AGM one a full black top, and the Gel one a full grey top.

 

 

Although there’s no guarantee with Banner that the colour of the battery’s top and/or casing will accurately identify the type, it’s pretty certain that, if the battery’s top is blue it will be an “Energy Bull”.

 

Chausson’s User’s Manual

 

http://www.chausson-camping-cars.fr/wp-content/uploads/MANUEL-Chausson-2015-Anglais.pdf

 

says (Page 18)

 

"Additional battery

Our motorhomes use two types of batteries: lead-based and gel-based. It is up to you to decide on their respective advantages; your selection criteria, in particular utilization, will determine your choice. Depending on your choice, you MUST adapt the battery charger to the type of battery.”

 

This suggests that a buyer of a new Chausson motorhome can choose which type of battery is fitted - which may be the case in France (maybe!!) but not necessarily so in the UK.

 

If David’s battery is an “Energy Bull” it will probably be the 95751 100Ah product (as this seems to be the norm nowadays) and it ought to have a degassing tube fitted as referred to on Pages 21-23 of the Chausson User’s Manual.

 

As Dave225 says, if in doubt lift the seat.

 

(I’m not sure I’d want an “Energy Bull” battery hidden under a cab seat, as they are not ‘maintenance free’ and it would be wise to monitor the electrolyte level. But there you go...)

 

 

I could be wrong, ok I'm wrong..... but the batteries used in all motorhomes are "lead based" It is what the electrolyte/acid is suspended in that is different isn't it? ie water, gel, AGM etc. A slip of the finger I'm sure.

[Brian Kirby]

keninpalamos - 2015-12-13 1:23 PM....................I could be wrong, ok I'm wrong..... but the batteries used in all motorhomes are "lead based" It is what the electrolyte/acid is suspended in that is different isn't it? ie water, gel, AGM etc. A slip of the finger I'm sure.

Just a case of lost in translation, I think, Ken!

 

The French colloquially class batteries as plomb (lead), AGM, or gel. So, a non-technical, possibly non native English speaker, would just translate "plomb" as lead. Yes, they all use lead and sulphuric acid, just in differing forms/compositions.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2015-12-13 7:27 PM

 

keninpalamos - 2015-12-13 1:23 PM....................I could be wrong, ok I'm wrong..... but the batteries used in all motorhomes are "lead based" It is what the electrolyte/acid is suspended in that is different isn't it? ie water, gel, AGM etc. A slip of the finger I'm sure.

Just a case of lost in translation, I think, Ken!

 

The French colloquially class batteries as plomb (lead), AGM, or gel. So, a non-technical, possibly non native English speaker, would just translate "plomb" as lead. Yes, they all use lead and sulphuric acid, just in differing forms/compositions.

 

The Italians refer to automotive ‘wet cell’ batteries as lead-type (“piombo”) and the battery-type selection switch of the Italian-made CBE and Nordelettronica battery chargers (as shown in the Chausson manual’s drawings) is marked “PB” and “GEL” as a consequence.

 

This isn’t really Chausson’s ‘fault’ as the English-language instructions provided by the manufacturers of the Italian-made battery chargers fitted to Chausson motorhomes also define the type of battery that the selection switch can select as either “gel” or “lead”, and Chausson just repeats that definition.

 

Historically Banner “Energy Bull” batteries were all wet-acid(flooded) type, marketed specifically for ‘hobby/leisure’ applications and with the capability of having their electrolyte topped up and being fitted with a degassing tube. More recently the Energy Bull range has been expanded to include ‘deep cylce’ AGM and ‘deep cycle’ GEL batteries that cannot be topped up nor be fitted with a degassing tube. Banner wet-acid Energy Bull batteries are very common nowadays as original equipment (OE) in motorhomes, and the AGM version is quite common as OE in more up-market models where a gel-type battery used to be the norm (eg. Hymer). I’m not aware that Energy Bull GEL batteries are currently fitted as OE in motorhomes.

[david lloyd]

Derek Uzzell - 2015-12-14 9:06 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2015-12-13 7:27 PM

 

keninpalamos - 2015-12-13 1:23 PM....................I could be wrong, ok I'm wrong..... but the batteries used in all motorhomes are "lead based" It is what the electrolyte/acid is suspended in that is different isn't it? ie water, gel, AGM etc. A slip of the finger I'm sure.

Just a case of lost in translation, I think, Ken!

 

The French colloquially class batteries as plomb (lead), AGM, or gel. So, a non-technical, possibly non native English speaker, would just translate "plomb" as lead. Yes, they all use lead and sulphuric acid, just in differing forms/compositions.

 

The Italians refer to automotive ‘wet cell’ batteries as lead-type (“piombo”) and the battery-type selection switch of the Italian-made CBE and Nordelettronica battery chargers (as shown in the Chausson manual’s drawings) is marked “PB” and “GEL” as a consequence.

 

This isn’t really Chausson’s ‘fault’ as the English-language instructions provided by the manufacturers of the Italian-made battery chargers fitted to Chausson motorhomes also define the type of battery that the selection switch can select as either “gel” or “lead”, and Chausson just repeats that definition.

 

Historically Banner “Energy Bull” batteries were all wet-acid(flooded) type, marketed specifically for ‘hobby/leisure’ applications and with the capability of having their electrolyte topped up and being fitted with a degassing tube. More recently the Energy Bull range has been expanded to include ‘deep cylce’ AGM and ‘deep cycle’ GEL batteries that cannot be topped up nor be fitted with a degassing tube. Banner wet-acid Energy Bull batteries are very common nowadays as original equipment (OE) in motorhomes, and the AGM version is quite common as OE in more up-market models where a gel-type battery used to be the norm (eg. Hymer). I’m not aware that Energy Bull GEL batteries are currently fitted as OE in motorhomes.

 

Derek, the CBE charger is set at 'PB' (as opposed to Gel) which should be correct but my solar regulator allows for three settings - sealed, Gel or Flooded - I have set it to flooded but, as I cannot see any degassing tube (but there are removeable plugs in the top) is this correct or should it be set at 'Sealed' - which is what the dealer who transferred my solar panel and regulator set it at?

 

Thanks, David

[aandncaravan]

It is the correct charger/Solar setting but if there is not a vent tube fitted it is the wrong battery.

That battery is not suitable, or safe, to be installed inside the habitation area without vent tubes to the outside to carry away the explosive Gas.

That Banner battery is not Gas tight, but a fairly high maintenance battery that has been shown to lose a lot of fluid. Apart from being a pretty unpleasant gas that will corrode the base of the seat and be unpleasant on the Lungs, it is explosive.

If this gas ignites it can 'back fire' into the battery causing the battery to explode.

 

Suggest you go back to the supplier and request the installation of a Sealed battery that does not give off any Gas.

 

Unfortunately something we are seeing a lot of lately, usually with Banner batteries and often after fitment by the biggest Dealers/Retailers.

 

This is a real safety issue and we think the manufacturer should be doing more to ensure that it's suppliers understand the limitations of the products they sell.

The responsibility, we think, is with the supplier to know what they are selling, but ultimately falls with the Manufacturer to ensure that the literature it hands out with the product is accurate and understood by those who sell/promote it.

One of the biggest Banner battery retailers is saying on their website they are safe inside the vehicle without a vent, so clearly an issue with understanding what Banner have passed on. Banners own website does say they are not maintenance free, but this needs to get directly to the retailers.

 

The very least Banner can do is include the special, Banner Battery specific, Vent elbow with every battery purchase. So that all who do buy the battery for retro fit in a Motorhome can connect up the Universally accepted normal vent pipe to the non standard Banner battery vent.

Or better still adopt the same Gassing vent connector as all the other big manufacturers.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

david lloyd - 2015-12-14 10:45 AM

 

Derek, the CBE charger is set at 'PB' (as opposed to Gel) which should be correct but my solar regulator allows for three settings - sealed, Gel or Flooded - I have set it to flooded but, as I cannot see any degassing tube (but there are removeable plugs in the top) is this correct or should it be set at 'Sealed' - which is what the dealer who transferred my solar panel and regulator set it at?

 

Thanks, David

 

The blue-topped Banner “Energy Bull” 95751 battery is a ‘wet-acid(flooded)’ type, and whether it has a degassing-tube fitted or not does not change that. So your solar regulator should be set to “Flooded”.

 

My view is that any battery (flooded or sealed) that has been manufactured to accept a plug-in degassing-tube should have a tube fitted, and this is particularly important when the battery is installed in a leisure-vehicle’s living area. As I mentioned earlier Chausson’s Owner’s Manual includes guidance on how to access the underseat leisure-battery for both their Fiat- and Ford-based motorhomes, and in both cases a degassing-tube is referred to and pictured. On that basis one should reasonably think that Chausson expects a degassing-tube to be fitted and - as yours apparently does not have one - it needs to be asked why not. It’s possible that, if you remove the seat, you’ll find a degassing-tube and it will then be just a matter of attaching this to the Banner battery.

 

If UK Chausson dealerships are fitting Banner Energy Bull ‘wet’ 95751 batteries under a cab seat and not fitting a degassing-tube, they should definitely know better as (Dare I say it?) it’s visually bleeding obvious that this battery is intended to have a degassing tube inserted in the end of its casing and should also be plain from Banner’s own website.

 

(My 2015 Rapido motorhome’s leisure-battery is an Energy Bull 95751, but it’s in the rear garage and not within the vehicle’s living-area. It also has a degassing-tube fitted and, when an (optional) 2nd 95751 battery is fitted, that gets its own degassing-tube.)

[david lloyd]

Thank you aandacaravan and Derek. It seems fairly obvious now that the battery is indeed a flooded (I.e. wet) battery of 100ah size. For my own peace of mind I will remove the seat this week and thoroughly check that it does have a degassing tube fitted.

 

I would much prefer a Gel battery and will probably do this next year after we return from Spain but as far as getting the dealership to replace it that would mean a round trip of some 300 miles - taking my time into account very nearly the price of just buying a new battery myself. So we live and learn, despite having been motorhoming for some 20 years and owning a variety of vans I can still get it wrong by not simply checking every detail before paying the balance!

 

Thanks again everyone

David

[david lloyd]

So, having had good advice on this thread and now read the other thread on Banner batteries I feel the best course of action would be to replace my battery with either a Gel or maintenance free battery next year.

 

Given the location (under the passenger seat) what would be the best recommendation? I would like to have a larger ah battery rather than install two but, if necessary, would do that instead.

 

Recommendations please.

 

David

[aandncaravan]

There are good batteries out there but the best for you would depend on how you wish to use it?

 

Do you want to be able to do a lot of wildcamping and maybe run the battery quite low each time or will you be tending to Tour with fairly frequent top-up from the Alternator?

 

Will the contribution from Solar be quite significant, like when in Southern Spain in Summer or will it be almost zero from touring Scotland in Winter? How big is the Solar setup?

 

Do you want to buy a budget battery that might only last a year or two or do you want long life?

 

If you give as much info about your intended usage, you will probably get some good advice aimed at exactly what you want.

 

 

 

 

[Alanb]

David,

 

I have just come across this thread. As you and others have already determined you have a Banner Energy Bull which is a Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) battery and as has been stated above, requires topping up and a vent tube.

 

The topping will of course mean removing the seat, but perhaps I can pass on my method of venting these batteries.

 

The venting port on these Banner batteries is an annular ring, with a central slot in the end of the battery. The slot is the vent.

 

Normal venting elbows are 5mm OD, but of too small a bore to to allow fitting into the annular ring.

 

My solution when fitting two Banner batteries last August was to progressively drill out one leg of the elbow to just beyond the shoulder of the elbow. Use a hand brace or minimum speed on a battery drill. The plastic of the elbow deforms round the drill bit, and I actually ended up using a 5mm drill to get a 4.5mm bore. It goes without saying that you need to drill concentric with the original bore.

 

I ended up with a firm push fit into the Banner batteries. You will also need some suitable PVC tubing to lead to the outside.

 

Perhaps I am preaching to the converted, but take care if drilling through the floor. The fuel tank is under the LHS seat on my 2005 PVC Ducato. I put a piece of scrap steel sheet over the target area of the tank while drilling a new hole on that side. As regards the RHS I reused the converters original hole, but was dismayed to find that insufficient care had been taken and the hole had been drilled into a strengthening box section below the floor. The hole was grazing the vertical side of the box section.,25mm to the right would have been much better.

 

All this may sound complicated and you may decide, because of warranty consideration,s to let the dealer handle the drilling, despite the distance.

 

I reused the elbows from my original batteries, but I have previously obtained screen washer elbows and tubing from my local car accessory shop. Alternatively Ebay?

[Robinhood]

I'm led to believe (as above) that the vent pipes for these batteries are non-standard, but that they are obtainable from RoadPro:

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/retail/12v24v-electrical-products/batteries-and-lithium-power-packs/banner-lead-acid-energy-bull-batteries/vent-pipe-for-banner-batteries-2104.htm

 

Or Tayna:

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Banner-Battery-Vent-Tube-P9171.html

 

There will no doubt be other suppliers.

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2015-12-14 8:02 PM

 

There are good batteries out there but the best for you would depend on how you wish to use it?

 

Do you want to be able to do a lot of wildcamping and maybe run the battery quite low each time or will you be tending to Tour with fairly frequent top-up from the Alternator?

 

Will the contribution from Solar be quite significant, like when in Southern Spain in Summer or will it be almost zero from touring Scotland in Winter? How big is the Solar setup?

 

Do you want to buy a budget battery that might only last a year or two or do you want long life?

 

If you give as much info about your intended usage, you will probably get some good advice aimed at exactly what you want.

 

 

 

 

Thanks to both Alanb and Robinhood for their replies.

 

aandacaravans - I have had a look on you website and, from what I saw there the Varta LFD90 may be a good replacement - I may get two - saw some on an eBay shop for just £80 each - but, to answer your questions:

We don't wild amp but do sometimes use temporary holiday sites in this country without hookup and also Aires when touring in Spain or Portugal in winter. The winter trip will also include stays on campsites with hookup as will some of our summer UK trips.

The solar panel is 90watt and, as mentioned will be relied upon during winter trips to Spain whilst touring during December to March - but stays on Aires are usually no more than two days at a time.

I would prefer a long life battery (say, five years) and also for it to be very low maintenance - as it is located beneath the passenger seat. Gel may be a better option?

I am hoping to remove the seat this week sometime to check the presence of a degassing tube but, if I go down the route of two batteries (which I have had before) there will also need to be a suitable edit hole beneath the drivers seat too.

 

Many thanks

David

[Tracker]

Just a thought David, but is it worth contemplating re-locating the leisure battery(ies) under a seat locker so that you can easily wire in two together and check them when needed?

It's a lot less complicated than wiring in a second battery under an equally inaccesible driver's cab seat?

Both of the under cab seat storage spaces which are quite a decent size when empty can then be used for other things and should be readily accessible via the flap on the front of the lockers?

[Robinhood]

david lloyd - 2015-12-15 9:54 AM

 

I am hoping to remove the seat this week sometime to check the presence of a degassing tube but, if I go down the route of two batteries (which I have had before) there will also need to be a suitable edit hole beneath the drivers seat too.

 

Many thanks

David

 

...you may well find that two 80/90AH batteries will shoehorn under a single seat (especially if the type is selected carefully for its dimensions).

 

My current Ducato has two 95AH Varta AGM under the Driver's seat, and my previous Transit had two 80AH Exide Gel under the passenger's seat.

 

It makes wiring runs somewhat simpler, and it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to combine two vents to exit through an existing hole.

 

 

[Tracker]

Robinhood - 2015-12-15 11:15 AM

 

...you may well find that two 80/90AH batteries will shoehorn under a single seat (especially if the type is selected carefully for its dimensions).

 

 

In which case the height of the batteries is critical to retain clearance of the terminals due to possible variations of how far the seat and runner mechanisms intrude ionto the seat box particularly when the seat is moved fore and aft or swivelled.

[Alanb]

Robinhood - 2015-12-14 10:27 PM

 

I'm led to believe (as above) that the vent pipes for these batteries are non-standard, but that they are obtainable from RoadPro:

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/retail/12v24v-electrical-products/batteries-and-lithium-power-packs/banner-lead-acid-energy-bull-batteries/vent-pipe-for-banner-batteries-2104.htm

 

Or Tayna:

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/Banner-Battery-Vent-Tube-P9171.html

 

There will no doubt be other suppliers.

 

I do not know what Road Pro are offering as a vent tube for Banner batteries, but the picture that I found on Tayna's website suggested either polythene, or nylon tubing of the appropriate OD and bore to fit. There was also the statement that was it was the only suitable pipe that Tayna had managed to source.

 

My thoughts, for what they are worth, are that the tubing gave the impression of being too stiff to allow for a neat installation in the confines of an under seat battery location. I managed to fit longer batteries, than the original in my PVC, but I could not manage to fit100ah batteries. Even with a battery length of only 278mm, space for the vent tubes is limited.

[Derek Uzzell]

Assuming that Robinhood’s Varta AGM 95Ah batteries are these

 

http://www.varta-automotive.com/en-gb/products/leisure/professional-dual-purpose-agm/840-095-085

 

the dimensions are the same as those of a Banner Energy Bull 95751. As two of the Vartas will fit beneath Robinhood’s Ducato’s driver’s seat, two should (in principle) fit under one of a Ducato-based Chausson’s cab seats.

 

The Chausson 717GA was available on a Fiat Ducato or Ford Transit base, but I don’t think there’s been any indication which version David has. I don’t know if Chausson exploiits the underseat area for anything other than the leisure-battery (eg. housing the battery charger there), but it’s fairly common for this to happen. My Transit-based Hobby motorhome had its starter-battery under the driver’s seat and the (gel) leisure-battery under the passenger-seat alongside the battery-charger and 12V distribution-box. I could have installed a 2nd leisure-battery under the driver’s seat, but not under the passenger seat.

 

(What’s Varta’s advice on charging their AGM batteries? Do they (Like Banner) advise that a gel-regimen should be chosen?)

 

Banner’s website has photos of the degassing outlet, elbow and tube

 

http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/kontakt/faq/faq.nl-NL.php#1

 

I suppose one could push a short piece of flexible tubing into the battery’s degassing outlet, fix an elbow to that piece of tubing and then attach a suitable length of tubing to the elbow’s other end, but that really shouldn’t be necessary. My Rapido’s Banner Energy Bull battery has the arrangement shown in the Banner website’s photos (with a directly-attached elbow), as had every other Rapido’s Banner battery I’ve seen.

[Robinhood]

They are indeed those.

 

I believe Varta indicate that the "Gel" regime is more appropriate than the "Pb" or flooded.

 

My 'van came from the factory set that way (though there is a rather boring further anecdote about that, which I won't bother with here).

 

 

[Steve928]

The floor of the average van will have several gas drop vent holes (for heavier than air gasses) plus any number of smaller orifices for pipework and wiring etc.

Then the cab area is notoriously draughty too, with cold air getting in around the handbrake, up the door pillars vents around the seatbelts etc.

I know that on all the vans I've owned it's been noticable just how much cold air is getting in around floor level, making the heating work quite hard as the warm air rises and exits the vents arounds the skylights.

Most vans have a skirt around their perimeter too, extending down below floor level.

 

So would it not be the case then that most of the lighter-than-air hydrogen that is being vented down a tiny tube exiting just below floor level will find its way back up into the van anyway? Might it not be better to just vent this tiny quantity directly into the rising air in the van's interior and let it exit along with all the other warm and smelly air through the ceiling vents?

 

The flammable limit of hydrogen in air is 4% (Google). Given a couple of vent tubes of 6mm diameter I wonder whether it would it even be physically possible to approach that limit in, say, 25 cubic metres of gradually refreshed internal airspace?

 

 

[Tracker]

I have no real expertise on the topic of gassing but could it be that gas off tubes are not fitted because the charge rate from all sources - particularly the engine alternator - is so limited that the poor battery never gets enough charge to gas off any hydrogen - unless a B2B charger is installed - and that any electrolite loss is purely down to evaporation?

 

If more height for battery access is required it might be possible to remove some of the very thick sound proofing insulation from under the cab seat locker and replace it with something much thinner?