Broken Front Road Spring - Ducato X244

[StuartO]

We have had to abandon our plans to take our MH to our son's place for use as a spare bbedroom on his drive because of terrible graunching noises from the off-sdie front, associated with a drop of 2 inches in riding height on that side -which I deduce is a broken coil spring.  We will take the car and sleep on a put-you-up instead, so no immediate catastrophe.

 

But should I replace both front coil springs with uprated ones, rather than just the off-side with a standard one, once the garages re-open after Christmas?  I've seen them at shows and it looks like a good idea.

 

Any suggestions?  Where do I get the uprated ones?

 

[Tracker]

It may be old fashioned now but I would always change any suspension or brake parts on both sides of a vehicle, especially the fronts and even when only one side was needed, to maintain some semblance of predictability when braking or swerving.

[PJay]

As tracker has stated Best to change both springs, Then at least they will match, and maybe S*d's law , the other side will go if not

At least you can still enjoy your trip to family for Xmas, so have a good one Stuart

PJay

[Derek Uzzell]

If you want ‘uprated’ front springs, the results of this GOOGLE-search may help

 

https://tinyurl.com/y898kzua

 

Replacement would be a challenging DIY task

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/re-placing-front-suspension-on-2003-18-maxi-ducato/24642/

 

and (as has been advised above) it would be wise to replace both front springs not just the broken one.

 

Unless you were unhappy with your motorhome’s front-end ride-quality and ride-height before the spring-breakage, you might want to think twice before replacing ’standard’ springs with ‘uprated’ ones.

 

If the vehicle was low and/or ’soft’ at the front, choosing stronger springs would make sense: if it was not and you have stronger springs fitted, you might find the ride-quality has become uncomfortably harsh and/or the motorhome ends up nose-high.

[Tracker]

Considering how many motorhomes and vans there are spring breakage seems to be remarkably rare and given the Ducato is not best known for it's ride quality my inclination would be to stick with stamdard springs unless there is a very good reason not to.

[Brian Kirby]

Are these the standard Fiat springs, or the uprated Goldschmitt springs that Hymer often fit? Might be worth checking your build spec unless you already know for sure that they are standard Fiat items. The Goldschmitt springs are longer (and may also be higher rated, though the permissible front axle load may remain unaltered notwithstanding), to eliminate the common nose down stance of many motorhomes.

[Muswell]

Tracker - 2017-12-23 3:39 PM

 

Considering how many motorhomes and vans there are spring breakage seems to be remarkably rare and given the Ducato is not best known for it's ride quality my inclination would be to stick with stamdard springs unless there is a very good reason not to.

 

When we took our Golf for a service and MOT in June I was told that a front spring was broken. There was no detectable effect on the handling, which surprised me. It seems that it is a common fault on Golfs.

[StuartO]

Muswell - 2017-12-24 7:28 AM When we took our Golf for a service and MOT in June I was told that a front spring was broken. There was no detectable effect on the handling, which surprised me. It seems that it is a common fault on Golfs.

 

My MH is now 11 yrs old and this is the second time I have suffered a front spring failure - near side a bout six years ago and off side this time.  First time we were on the motorway doing about 60 mph, a bang and a lurch was all we experienced, although the lurch was noticeable and the affected side stayed down.  We were able to pull over safely, got recovered to our local garage which got stuck in and fitted a new standard spring and had us back on our way within a few hours.

 

This time it happened while parked alongside the house and in retorspect I heard a mystereous loud bang a few weeks ago (when I was in the house) but didn't relise what it was until I came to move the MH this lunchtime - horrible grinding noise as I tried to reverse out, worse as I applied lock - we obviously had a big problem.  Only as I took a look outside and spotted the dropped off-side corner did the penny drop.

 

Our MH is a 2006 X244 Fiat-based Hymer with what I thing are standard Fiat springs.  It's normally loaded close to maximum weight.  The MH normally sits a bit nose down on level ground so an increase in ride height at the front would not be unwelcome.

 

I'll do some more research but I'm thinking I might as well replace both front springs with uprated ones.  The ride has always felt OK but the shock absorption has never seemed to cope well with potholes, so you get more of a bang than you should.  I'll look into better shock absorbers whilst I'm at it.

 

 

 

[Alanb]

Hi Stuart,

 

As my PVC is also a 2006 X244, I would be very interested in the final outcome.

 

Thanks

 

Alan

[starvin marvin]

StuartO - 2017-12-23 1:48 PMWe have had to abandon our plans to take our MH to our son's place for use as a spare bbedroom on his drive because of terrible graunching noises from the off-sdie front, associated with a drop of 2 inches in riding height on that side -which I deduce is a broken coil spring.  We will take the car and sleep on a put-you-up instead, so no immediate catastrophe.

 

But should I replace both front coil springs with uprated ones, rather than just the off-side with a standard one, once the garages re-open after Christmas?  I've seen them at shows and it looks like a good idea.

 

Any suggestions?  Where do I get the uprated ones?

There are small scale spring manufacturers around who will make a pair of springs for you to whatever spec you choose, ie Fiat or Goldschmitt. You can fit them yourself or get your local garage to fit them for you. I remember having a lot of fun changing two rear springs on my old Renault 12 TL with uprated estate car springs manufactured to Renault spec at a much lower cost. All done without spring compressors, but lots of coat hanger wire. Happy days. Would I do it again? not a chance, I value my fingers too much!

[StuartO]

starvin marvin - 2017-12-24 12:22 PM There are small scale spring manufacturers around who will make a pair of springs for you to whatever spec you choose, ie Fiat or Goldschmitt. You can fit them yourself or get your local garage to fit them for you. ...

 

How do you locate one of those then, it sounds like something that would have existed a generation ago?

 

Off on our travels for Christmas now so have a good one everybody and thanks for the ideas.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

A GOOGLE-search identifies several specialist UK spring manufacturers/suppliers

 

https://tinyurl.com/y7ypplj5

 

However (as starvin marvin touched on) to have coil springs made that matched those on the Fiat parts-list or as marketed by Goldschmitt, Kilen, MAD, VB, etc. it would be necessary to know the latter springs’ technical specification.

[blaven]

Alanb - 2017-12-23 7:45 PM

 

Hi Stuart,

 

As my PVC is also a 2006 X244, I would be very interested in the final outcome.

 

Thanks

 

Alan

 

Me too!! X244 2003

[Tracker]

Before anyone gets too paranoid, we had several Boxer / Ducato vans, panel and coachbuilt, all made from 1995 to 2011, some petrol some diesel, all bought secondhand, the youngest 1 year old the oldest 9 years old, some with high mileage, some with low mileage and never once did we have any trouble with the road springs or any part of the suspension, front or rear.

 

Over a 20 year span we covered over 100,000 miles and visited countries like Morocco and others where the roads can be poor and the potholes unpredictable.

 

So worry ye not - just get out there and enjoy!

[Derek Uzzell]

Received wisdom seems to be that coil-spring breakage is more common nowadays than it used to be, but that may just be because there are now more vehicles on the road. The following link refers

 

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/coil-springs-fail/

 

This video-clip

 

 

relates to Boxer/Ducato/Relay X230 models, but the task is likely to be similar for X244s.

[StuartO]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-25 9:06 AMReceived wisdom seems to be that coil-spring breakage is more common nowadays than it used to be, but that may just be because there are now more vehicles on the road. The following link refershttp://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/coil-springs-fail/This video-clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG80k9NdRQUrelates to Boxer/Ducato/Relay X230 models, but the task is likely to be similar for X244s.

Useful video clip - not that I was thinking of doing the job myself!

[aandncaravan]

Stuart, if you already think the ride is harsh over potholes then uprated springs will make that worse.

The primary role of the shock absorber is to control rebound, so you don't pogo down the road after the first bump.

Rebound damping is the amount the oil will slow the speed at which the damper extends.

Shock absorbers do have an impact on compression damping, the sudden force applied when the Spring/damper compresses, but this far less than rebound damping effort.

It is the firmness of the spring that will depend how much 'crashing' is fed to the cab.

 

Almost all my road bikes got set up with slightly less compression damping, but slightly higher rebound than standard for the best compromise handling in both the dry and wet.

 

 

I have had two cars with broken front springs, both were replaced as a pair with uprated, after market springs which had a detrimental impact on ride quality. It wasn't intentional to fit uprated springs, I thought they were standard, I only found out later they were not standard via the hard ride, that they were the Diesel engine spec versions.

 

 

Note that the damping is matched to the spring rate, if you uprate the spring without uprating the damper, particularly on a damper that has already done a few miles, the spring can overcome the damper.

 

With you intending to keep the van a while yet, and bearing in mind the amount of rework you have already carried out I would suggest you consider replacing both Springs and Dampers, especially so with the vehicle running near maximum weight most of the time.

 

A set of Shocks on ebay can be found for around £80 a pair with springs at £120 a pair.

 

 

However, having said all that, there is a pair of second hand springs at £25 allowing you to just change one spring and still be matched. See :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hymer-Fiat-Ducato-Genuine-Front-Springs-Heavy-Duty-2-8-JTD-X244/272986870767?epid=20007719362&hash=item3f8f4913ef:g:iUoAAOSwCtJZ7NRX

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

But, just as a reminder, Stuart first needs to check whether Hymer had fitted Goldschmitt springs as OEM spec.

 

I would think that whichever spring is eventually fitted, a matched pair will work best, because even if the new spring is a like for like match for the remaining spring, the older one will have settled over the years and may no longer be a working match for the new one. This would be especially true for the Goldschmitt springs which are longer than the standard Fiat variety to incrtese the front ride height.

 

I don't know whether the dampers can be replaced separately within a Ducato McPherson strut but, while the front is dismantled to do the springs, not doing the dampers at the same time seems a bit of a false economy - albeit it is all money!

[747]

In the era that Stuarts van was built, it was extremely common for vehicles to suffer broken springs due to potholes or sleeping Policemen. I suffered 3 broken springs on a Renault Clio and I am a fairly careful driver. These were all original springs and I noticed that replacements from other sources than the manufacturer never broke.

 

Therefore, I reckon fitting the same rated springs could be the end of the matter.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-25 11:25 AM

 

...I don't know whether the dampers can be replaced separately within a Ducato McPherson strut but, while the front is dismantled to do the springs, not doing the dampers at the same time seems a bit of a false economy - albeit it is all money!

 

A Ducato’s complete front strut needs to be replaced, not just the damper ‘insert’. This video-clip shows the procedure involved

 

 

and these Fiat Forum and O&AL forum entries also refer

 

https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/325588-replace-ducato-front-shock-absorbers.html

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-front-suspension/28945/#M332773

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Progressive-springs-worth-spending-money-on-/36417/

 

Obviously - if the intention were to fit stronger and/or longer front springs than the originals - both springs would need to be replaced, and it would be worth contacting EssandJay Ltd about this

 

http://www.essanjay.co.uk/

 

as on-line comments indicate that they should be able to advise based on practical experience.

 

I used to modify my cars’ suspension, fitting non-original springs and Koni or Spax adjustable dampers, but there was never any certainty that the effect would justify the expenditure. It was educational though, particularly the incident where I had compressed a coil-spring in a carpenter’s bench-vice and (as starvin marvin mentions above) had used wire as a ‘binding’. The wire snapped as I removed the spring from the vice and the spring rocketed around the workshop like Zebedee on crystal meth. I invested in a set of spring compressors after that, but I very much doubt they would be adequate for Ducato springs.

[thebishbus]

I believe that spring failure on this age vehicles was due to cost cutting by the suppliers, the ends of the springs not being tempered , this leading to premature failure, if one side has failed the other is probably suspect also. I would think that new replacements would be tempered correctly and more reliable.

Brian B.

.

[Derek Uzzell]

This Honest John advice may amuse

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/caradvice/honestjohn/11006901/Why-did-my-cars-springs-break.html

 

This document file contains a wealth of useful information

 

http://www.kilensprings.com/technical-information/kilen%20technical%20and%20sales%20training%20presentation%20march%2010_small_id444.pdf

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-26 9:20 AM............................... particularly the incident where I had compressed a coil-spring in a carpenter’s bench-vice and (as starvin marvin mentions above) had used wire as a ‘binding’. The wire snapped as I removed the spring from the vice and the spring rocketed around the workshop like Zebedee on crystal meth. ..............................

Brilliant mental image! :-D Hope you remembered to duck! Bring back Magic Roundabout!

[StuartO]

Back from Seasonal Visiting and planning to start working out what to do about my broken spring.

 

First job is to chat with my local garage to see if they will do the job, then source replacement uprated springs and damper, then make a decision about whether to go for those.  No rush fortunately, as we have no plans to use the MH during the next two months or so.

 

Thanks for the helpful replies.

 

[StuartO]

My research so far suggests that the labour costs for fitting replacement suspension springs and and gaiters, although I'm not currently clear whether they struts (includes the shock absorbers)is about £150 to £250 and a pair of standard coil springs between £120 and £150.  Then there seems to be the option of bump stops and gaiters, although I'm not currently clear whether they are relevant to my model.

 

I can't talk to my local garage about fitting until after the holiday but labour seems to be around £500 on an A Class, which is more difficult to do that a coachbuilt, although I don'treally understnad why yet.

 

Uprated springs seem to be available from VB (Conrad Anderson) and Goldsmitt (Travel World) and they cost a lot more than standard springs, presumably reflecting the smaller market for them.

 

Has anyone come across a comparisson of VB and Goldsmitt springs?