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CBE PC200 control panel


Doubler

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My Autostar is fitted with a CBE PC200AU electrical control panel. It was working fine until the leisure battery went flat. I recharged the battery but now the control panel won't switch on, either on battery or ehu, which means no power for lighting etc. I'm no electrician so any ideas will be gratefully received
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...the CBE control panel is supplied from the (CBE DS-300) distribution box.

 

This is itself supplied from the leisure battery, and in this supply there is a large value (up to 50A) fuse. (AFAIR, the panel does not have a fuse in the distribution unit protecting it).

 

Having flat batteries and operating the engine and/or subsequently charging them can have some "interesting" effects on these in-line fuses.

 

Whilst it is by no means certain, I would be looking at the main fuse leading from the leisure battery positive terminal (and if it isn't next to the battery, good luck in finding it).

 

 

 

 

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Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums.

 

If you have not got an instruction manual for your Autostar’s CBE system, this link may be of some use:

 

http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/pdf/PC100_PC200_DS300_ENcircuits.pdf

 

It sounds like a fuse between the leisure battery and the CBE “DS-300” distribution-box has failed.

 

Suggest you first try disconnecting the leisure battery and reconnecting it, making sure that connections at the battery terminals are tight. If that does no good, look for a fuse in the battery’s power-supply cable (probably close to the battery’s “+” terminal) and check that the fuse is OK. If the fuse is OK, try removing the PC-200 control-panel and disconnecting/reconnecting it.

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Welcome to the forum.

 

I don't think I can really add much to that what has already been suggested.

 

My CBE manual mentions the "minimal voltage control" which turns the 12 volt system off when the leisure battery falls below 10 volts. The electronic switching device is supposed to automatically switch on again once the battery is greater than 12 volt.

 

You say your battery went flat and you have now recharged it. Suggest you first check the voltage at the leisure battery using a multimeter - you should see about 12.8 volts.

 

If the 10 volt minimal voltage switch was triggered, this would suggest the battery had been totally discharged. This can cause severe damage to the battery. Recharging may help but you may find that as soon as a load is applied, the voltage drops like a stone.

 

Best of luck and let us know how you get on to resolve the problem.

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Thanks all for you helpful replies. I haven't yet managed to find the 50A fuse, but I didn't mention before that the battery is delivering power to items such as the motorised step which, according to the manual, does not rely on the main switch at the control panel. This suggests that power is reaching the DB and that the 50A fuse is OK, wherever it is.

 

I guess the problem must be with the control panel itself.

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Doubler - 2016-01-24 7:15 PM

 

Thanks all for you helpful replies. I haven't yet managed to find the 50A fuse, but I didn't mention before that the battery is delivering power to items such as the motorised step which, according to the manual, does not rely on the main switch at the control panel. This suggests that power is reaching the DB and that the 50A fuse is OK, wherever it is.

 

I guess the problem must be with the control panel itself.

 

Doubler,

 

It is more likely that the step is powered from the starter battery and not the leisure battery so I am inclined to agree that you have no power from the leisure battery as you first suspected.

 

You will have to follow the wiring from the leisure battery and look carefully for any fuse or bad connection.

 

Keith.

 

PS What is the voltage of the leisure battery measured directly across its terminals and with everything turned off?

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Robbo - 2016-01-24 7:41 PM

 

Have you checked the 1amp fuse at the distribution box (item no.1) in the diagram.

 

Even if the fuse hasn't blown you may find that taking it out and reinserting it may reset the control panel.

 

Worth a try.

 

I’m unsure which 1A fuse you are referring to, as the lowest amperage fuse I’d expect to find in a DS-300 Distribution Box would be 3A.

 

As Robinhood advised earlier, there is (apparently) no fuse-way in a DS-300 relating to a PC-200 system’s control-panel. That doesn’t necessarily mean that removing, checking and replacing all of the DS-300 fuses won’t result in Doubler’s control-panel coming back to life, just that doing this SHOULD not resurrect the control-panel. (Worth a try though - miracles are claimed to happen!)

 

Regarding step operation, the DS-300 has an ouput (fuse-way 8 - 25A) intrnded to power an electric step.

 

The CBE Manual says

 

"8) 25A fuse for the electrical step power supply, connected directly to the leisure (B2) battery.”

 

It should be anticipated then that (unless Autostar has bloody-mindedly chosen to do otherwise) Doubler’s motorhome’s step will be powered from the leisure-battery via the DS-300’s fuse-way assigned to step-operation and, as the step is operative, it’s logical to believe that leisure-battery power is reaching the DS-300 Distribution Box.

 

There are other habitation-area functions (smart fridge, 12V kitchen equipment, Truma electric safety/drain-valve) that will normally be leisure-battery powered via the DS-300 without the control-panel needing to be switched on, so It should be simple enough to establish whether leisure-battery power is reaching the DS-300 Distribution Box - just disconnect the leisure-battery and see if the step (etc.) stops working.

 

A PC-200 system is very modular and (as should be evident from the Manual’s schematics) the control-panel’s wiring ‘loom’ just plugs into Connector 17 on the DS-300 unit. I don’t know how accessible the DS-300 box is in Doubler’s motorhome, but the box’s top is just held on by two screws, so it might be worth disconnecting/reconnecting the control-panel at Connector 17. I’d also try using the “SETUP” procedure described at the foot of the Manual’s Page 13.

 

It really needs another PC-200 control-panel (known to be in good working order) to be connected into Doubler’s motorhome’s electrical system. If the ‘replacement’ control-panel worked, then Doubler’s panel could be assumed to have become faulty, but if the replacement panel didn’t work the present problem is more likely to involve the DS-300 Distribution Box.

 

At present, although there are various trouble-shooting checks that can (and should) be made by Doubler, and things that can be tried hopefully (eg. connecting the motorhome to a 230V hook-up and running the onboard battery-charger) if the control-panel stays dead, professional attention will be required.

 

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As far as i remember the two (usually grey boxed) high current relays contain not only a small fuse for the relay coil but a 50 Amp bolt on fuse to protect the circuit. If this is the case unscrew the cover off the relay's and check the fuses. If one is blown due to high surge charging current because the leisure battery was flat /faulty this would prevent the control panel working.

Best of luck Dave

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Robbo - 2016-01-24 7:41 PM

 

Have you checked the 1amp fuse at the distribution box (item no.1) in the diagram.

 

 

Good morning Derek. I think I've been singing from a slightly different hymn sheet.

 

My CBE control panel is PC-200T CA and distribution box DS-510 CA.

 

The distribution box has 15 fuses (with an additional 7 empty fuse sockets).

 

The Instruction Manual is entitled "PC-200T CA" with the Carthago logo below. The published date is 27/03/08.

 

I understand that some converters requested a customised version of the standard CBE system.

 

It would be interesting to know the OP's Distribution Box model reference and the approx date of conversion.

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CBE will provide motorhome manufacturers with ‘bespoke’ PC-100 and PC-200 systems that differ cosmetically from the standard after-market versions (ie. the control-panel has the motorhome manufacturer’s name on it) . The control-panel functionality of a bespoke system may also differ from the norm (eg. one of the buttons on my Hobby’s PC-100 panel operated a waste-water-tank heater, not the standard panel’s awning light).

 

Bespoke CBE systems will be identifiable by a suffix relating to the motor manufacturer’s name. So “CA” = “Carthago” and “AU” = “Autostar”.

 

A DS-300 Distribution Box is most commonly used, but the larger 'DS-5xx’ box was often installed on more upmarket motorhomes to cope with their enhanced electrical equipment specification. An image of a DS-520 box is attached and (as you rightly say) there are many more fuse-ways. I don’t think there’s an on-line manual for a CBE system like your Carthago’s, but with no model/year details available for Doubler’s Autostar I’ve assumed it has the more usulal system based on a DS-300 box.

DS520EX.jpg.cb1be4f55b7f252ef097aed141117ca6.jpg

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I suspect Dr Dave is right and the problem lies with the fuse in the smaller grey box 3" square (not one like Derek has posted) This box has a relay and when a button on the control panel is pressed the relay engages and the panel and all electrics should come to life. This box has a 5a and 50a fuse. I would check the former.

 

Also there may be a second similar box this contains the split charging relayso make sure you check the right one or if in doubt both!!

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Thanks Derek,

 

It's nice to know that my IH PVC is an "up market" vehicle, as I have always appreciated some of it's features. The 12v DB is 520 AN, and features 15 blade fuses plus 4 off 6mm terminal studs, which are designated B2 +ve, B2 -ve, B1 +ve, and CH +ve.

 

Some illustrations do not show a CH +ve terminal, so I am unable to see how B2 current can be monitored in those versions. (Assuming that CH +ve is connected to B2 +ve.)

 

To address the OP's problem still need confirmation of of the leisure battery voltage, preferably measured at the distribution board across B2 +ve and B2 -ve. It is possible that the leisure battery could be faulty with a shorted cell. This would reduce the battery voltage to below the 12 volts required for the PC 200 to restore supplies.

 

May I suggest that the step could well operate at battery terminal voltages considerably less than 12 volts. Operating the step may well confirm that the leisure battery is connected, but not that it is in good condition.

 

If the OP's problem does turn out to be low battery voltage, perhaps it would be possible to confirm this by temporarily replacing the suspect battery with a an alternatice 12 volt battery.

 

 

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Wow, more questions than answers! Seriously, thanks for all your interest and suggestions. The DB is a DS-520AU (so I also have an upmarket van). The battery is showing 13.2V and it is definitely the source of the step’s power. I’ve tried disconnecting everything, including the solar panel and the control panel connector at the DB and reconnected. I’ve also tried a 230V ehu. I thought I was getting somewhere because some of the icons on the control panel appeared when everything was reconnected. Now each time I switch the panel off and on again a different selection of icons, or fragments of icons, appears, but the main switch does not light up. It’s as if it’s getting very low voltage.

I can’t run the set-up procedure because – yep you got it, the control panel isn’t working.

I’ve found one 50A fuse but I think it’s on the negative cable to the engine battery. The positive from the leisure battery disappears very quickly into the woodwork and \I haven’t been able to track down the fuse. I also haven’t found the little grey boxes mentioned by Dr Dave and Ian81.

Would the relays you mentioned look like this by any chance:

 

http://p4.storage.canalblog.com/46/90/1123762/86356635_o.jpg ?

 

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No the relays are house in a 3" ish square grey plastic box with two bolted terminals at the bottom and screwed to the wall or floor by 4 screws you will know the ones as there will be two thick cables and a couple of thin ones going to them there will be two so make sure you check both. the image of the relay is attached.

Dave

297103607_cberelay.jpg.762f7bd53aa90f557fcb58a1d66d9b62.jpg

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Doubler,

 

Please not that it is possible that that you do not have the above "Boite Relais Securite" . Such an item definitely does not appear in IH PVC, but then it does date from 2006.

 

Looking at the picture, it appears to be a either a remote battery switching relay, or a battery coupling relay, and midi fuse designed to be mounted remote from the 12 volt DB.

 

Unfortunately your description of partial operation of the display unit does not bode well. To the best of my knowledge there are no published diagrams of the connectors for the PC200, so even checking the supply voltage will be difficult.

 

The only suggestion that occurs to me at the momen,t is to check the voltage at the B2 +ve & B2 -ve terminals on the distribution board if not already done.

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The attached photo shows (right to left) a CBE battery-charger, a CBE Distribution Box (in this case a DS-300) and two CBE “Boite Relais Securite” units.

 

There is a fair amount of on-line discussion relating to the CBE Boite Relais Securite, almost always on French motorhome forums and relating to vehicles made by Challenger/Chausson a few years ago.

 

I believe ian81 owns a Challenger and Dr Dave owns a Chausson, which would explain why they have suggested that Doubler’s problem involves the CBE ‘grey boxes' whereas Doubler’s Autostar and the CBE-equipped motorhomes of other participants in this discussion are not fitted with CBE Boites Relais Securite.

 

When the CBE Boite Relais Securite units are discussed on French forums there is usually doubt about exactly what the boxes’ purpose is. It’s likely that ian81 and Dr Dave have User Manuals that fully describe what the boxes are for, so it would be useful if they would confirm what their Manuals say.

 

I’ve not seen a Challenger/Chausson wiring diagram, but none of the CBE 'PC system’ schematics I have come across have ever shown Boites Relais Securite. As CBE Distribution Boxes include a voltage-sensing relay (coupler/separator) to parallel-connect starter- and leisure-batteries when the motorhome’s motor is running, it’s not easy to understand why one of the CBE boxes should be needed to provide a ’split charging relay’ function as ian81 has advised earlier.

 

As Alanb observes, the fact that Doubler’s control-panel shows signs of life is ominous, suggesting that there is a genuine fault (in the control-panel and/or the Distribution Box) that won’t be cleared merely by playing about with the system.

412207992_CBEsecurity-relaybox.jpg.513abe8cd383bc44e2d7e41cb0a4a4ee.jpg

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Derek Uzzell - 2016-01-26 9:43 AM

 

The attached photo shows (right to left) a CBE battery-charger, a CBE Distribution Box (in this case a DS-300) and two CBE “Boite Relais Securite” units.

 

There is a fair amount of on-line discussion relating to the CBE Boite Relais Securite, almost always on French motorhome forums and relating to vehicles made by Challenger/Chausson a few years ago.

 

I believe ian81 owns a Challenger and Dr Dave owns a Chausson, which would explain why they have suggested that Doubler’s problem involves the CBE ‘grey boxes' whereas Doubler’s Autostar and the CBE-equipped motorhomes of other participants in this discussion are not fitted with CBE Boites Relais Securite.

 

When the CBE Boite Relais Securite units are discussed on French forums there is usually doubt about exactly what the boxes’ purpose is. It’s likely that ian81 and Dr Dave have User Manuals that fully describe what the boxes are for, so it would be useful if they would confirm what their Manuals say.

 

 

Yes Derek you are correct and our Challenger (Chausson) has the collection you show in your photograph. The CB manual does not include a circuit diagram and some years ago I emailed the Italian company for one unsuccessfully. I do however have a scan of the circuit diagram of the Trigano wiring diagram which shows how the two boxes are configured. (2 pages 3Mb total -PM for copies)

 

The control panel's on / off switch is just a low current designed to latch a relay to turn the power on. There is no relay for this function in the DS300 so I would have thought a van supplier would have to provide an alternative and maybe integrate it with a split charge relay?

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This is getting a bit off thread as regards Doublers problems, but I hope that he will understand our search for knowledge.

 

On examining Dr. Dave's photo of the Boite Relais Securite, it seems to contain the following components: 50A midi fuse, a relatively high current relay, 2 x high current terminals, a 5A?? blade fuse, flywheel diode. and a 2 pole Mate-N-Lock connector.

 

In the photograph the unit is inverted with respect to it's cover, on which graphics indicate that the unit is intended to be connected between a 12 volt battery, and a 12 volt inlet (distribution board?).

 

I can surmise that the terminals, midi fuse, and relay contacts are all connected is series. Close inspection of the photo suggests that the blade fuse is connected to the 2 pole connector (pcb track just visible). Perhaps the bright object between the two studs is a tab for the relay coil -ve.

 

So we have a possible remotely operated battery switch or coupler, and 50A fuse. However if this device is used as a battery fuse, I would most strongly recommend that it is installed close to the battery, because the cable between the battery and the fuse would be unprotected and could become a fire risk.

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ian81 - 2016-01-26 11:51 AM

 

[Yes Derek you are correct and our Challenger (Chausson) has the collection you show in your photograph. The CB manual does not include a circuit diagram and some years ago I emailed the Italian company for one unsuccessfully. I do however have a scan of the circuit diagram of the Trigano wiring diagram which shows how the two boxes are configured. (2 pages 3Mb total -PM for copies)

 

The control panel's on / off switch is just a low current designed to latch a relay to turn the power on. There is no relay for this function in the DS300 so I would have thought a van supplier would have to provide an alternative and maybe integrate it with a split charge relay?

 

As will be evident from this link

 

http://tinyurl.com/zt5czw3

 

the CBE Distribution Box fitted by Challenger/Chausson is referred to as a DS-300TR (presumablty “TR” = Trigano)

 

A CBE Distribution Box ‘normally’ includes a coupler/separator, obviating the need for a separate split-charge relay.

 

As I said earlier the functionality of CBE “PC” control-panels varies and a panel’s On/Off switch’s purpose can vary too. The On/Off button on the control-panel of my Rapido’s CBE PC-180RA system provides a range of ‘check’ functions, but a separate “12V” On/Off button also needs to be pressed for light, heater and 12V sockets to become operative. When the “12V” button is pressed a relay within the DS-300RA Distribution Box can clearly be heard to ‘click’. The alternative PC-150RA control-panel has no “12V” button and pressing its On/Off switch makes the lights, heater and 12V sockets operative as well as allowing ‘checks’ to be performed. (My Hobby’s CBE PC-100HB-T control-panel worked similarly - its On/Off button enabled immediate full 12V functionality and triggered a relay within the DS-300 Distribution Box.)

 

Doubler’s Autostar motorhome has a PC-200AU control-panel connected to a DS-520AU Distribution Box. As the Autostar has no CBE “Boite Relais Securite” (BRS) boxes, whatever his problem is it won’t involve those units. And, if the BRS-equipped system fitted to yours and Dr Dave’s motorhomes is unique to Challenger/Chausson, a problem with Doubler’s system may not be applicable to your CBE-based systems and vice versa.

 

Without carrying out parts replacement (eg. replacing the control-panel or the DS-520’s circuit board) it’s going to be difficult to diagnose where Doubler’s problem lies. This link

 

http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/distribution-panel-ds520-205210-p-4977.html?osCsid=2ab7d24fae57b26c83b83923d8b842e9

 

carries a caveat about ensuring that replacement parts exactly match the originals.

 

I’m not aware of any UK firm that offers repairs/diagnostics for CBE “PC” systems.

 

(I’ve attached a photo/schematic of the BRS box that may be of interest.)

BRS.jpg.ba8517455b80a50be20afe200e75a624.jpg

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Yes you are correct its just a fuse protected high current relay in a grey box. This is triggered by the control unit to switch the power to the distribution unit, so if either fuse is blown i would expect no operation at all from the control panel. However if the 50 Amp fuse is blown with the coil fuse intact you would possibly hear the click of the relay as the power switch is pressed and it is possible leakage current from this activation circuit could cause the LCD to randomly flicker. In my particular Van the feed cable from the leisure battery to the CBE relay was about 1.5 Mtrs long and as you correctly stated the fuse is at the remote end of the feed cable with no protection near the leisure battery. I have fitted 50 Amp fuses at the battery end of this cable to negate the issue also the leisure battery was vented into the cab but now it is vented outside again by myself. The manufacturers do not seem to have any regard for electrical good practice it seems so it pays to look yourself. As stated previously the OP needs to check the 12 volt at the battery then at the distribution unit, even if the CBE relays are not fitted as in my van there will be an equivalent relay somewhere to apply voltage to the distribution unit it may be contained within the distribution unit itself.
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Thanks Derek,

 

Your picture confirms my deductions exactly.

 

Dr Dave,

 

I cannot agree that there has to be a similar relay installed in Doubler's vehicle. You may be asking him to search for non existent relay(s).

 

On my IH PVC the original leisure battery fuse was a 40A blade fuse, which was cabled directly to the cbe distribution board B2 +ve. Similar for the starter battery connection to B1 +ve.

 

There is no similar delay inside the cbe 12V distribution board. The fuses designated for solar reg., step, and gas valve (used for fridge control supply). are permanently live, unless that is the battery fuse is removed.

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My understanding is that the type of CBE modular system discussed above will normally be installed with a high-amperage fuse (50A in my Rapido’s case) in the positive cable leading from the motorhome’s starter-battery to the CBE Distribution Box. There will also be a high-amperage fuse (50A for my Rapido) in the positive cable leading from the motorhome’s leisure-battery to the CBE Distribution Box.

 

But Challenger/Chausson (and possibly some other Trigano Group motorhome manufacturers) install a pair of CBE “Boite Relais Securite” (BRS) units instead of (or in addition to) the pair of 50A fuses usually fitted and (as Dr Dave has said) the CBE BRS units are evidently triggered via the system’s control-panel.

 

Basically, there are two different CBE “PC” systems - the ‘Challenger/Chausson/Trigano’ one that includes CBE BRS units triggered through the control-panel’s On/Off switch, or the more common (and simpler) arrangement that uses high-amperage fuses in the batteries positive ‘live’ cables.

 

When attempting to trouble-shoot a problem, a system that has CBE BRS units needs to be treated differently to a system that lacks them. And variations in Distribution Box types and control-panel functionality will also need to be taken into account.

 

 

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My system definitely doesn't have any boites relais securité.

 

I've checked the multi-pin connector to the back of the control panel with the multimeter. With the positive probe on the blue and red wire it gives a reading of between 11 and 12.5V to most of the other connectors. Only 3 or 4 show no voltage at all. It seems to indicate that the problem must be at the panel itself, would you say?

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I’m seldom comfortable with the word “must”.

 

On the basis of your testing and what you said earlier about icons displaying (after a fashion) on the control-panel, it’s a reasonable bet that the problem lies with the panel and, if that’s the case, you’ll probably need to replace it. But if the problem lies with the DS-520AU and you buy a new control-panel, you’ll have wasted your money and still have the problem.

 

You might try contacting this company that advertises repairs to CBE equipment and may be able to advise on the best way forward:

 

http://www.leisureelectronicrepairs.co.uk/index.htm

 

 

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