Daylight Running Lights

[ColinM50]

Bought some LED bulbs to replace the yellowish ones on the Peugeot based Elddis M/H and jolly good they are too. However they seem to give me a problem in that the service light came on and stayed on. Peugeot dealer says I have to change back to original bulbs or thinks maybe I can find some of the right resistance equivalence. Anyone any thoughts please?

 

I really think the originals look total carp and much prefer LED's. Of course another option is to put up with the service light being on all the time but that could mask any other issues that could arise. Suggestions please chaps.

[Derek Uzzell]

Nick Fisher (euroserv) mentioned this phenomenon in his posting of 25 January 2016 5:41 PM in the following discussion

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/RHD-headlight-change/40682/

 

I quote

 

"If you substitute one type of DRL for another, for example; if you swap some LED DRL lamps for some relatively cheaper non LED lamps you will get a warning on the dash stating that there is a problem and an amber warning lamp will be illuminated. The type of headlamp fitted from build is apparently 'burned' into the body computer and CANNOT be altered. The lamps will work perfectly well though and the orange warning light should not be a problem for an MOT tester that can see that it all works as it should. The same applies if you swap LED lamps for standard ones. They will work, but the warning light will be present.”

 

The relevant bulbs on my 2015 Ducato are W21/5W ‘wedge’ type, providing illumination for the DRLs and front side-lights, and I assume the bulbs on your later Peugeot Boxer are the same.

 

LED versions of this bulb are often advertised on-line as being ‘CANBUS friendly’ (example here)

 

http://www.hids-direct.co.uk/r580-w21-5w-canbus-30-smd-3014-led-bulbs-pair-white/

 

but - as the advert warns - there’s no guarantee that they will be ‘friendly’ for every vehicle.

 

I thought about doing this myself as, if a vehicle has DRLs, they may as well be bright ones. However, as I was aware of Nick’s caveat and was not prepared to have the dashboard warning light continuously illuminated if the LED bulbs I bought provoked this, I decided not to bother.

 

I’ve not found anything on-line about this modification having been successfully carried out on a Boxer/Ducato (ie. without the warning-light being triggered).

[tonyishuk]

Nowt to add other than my Ducato x250 failed its MOT because the dashboard bulb indicator was lit, indicating a fault, despite all the bulbs working as they should.

 

" if it's alight, how do you know if you have a failed bulb? " the mot man said, could not fault him there !

 

Rgds

[Derek Uzzell]

Tony

 

I can’t argue with the MOT tester’s reasoning, though I’d question (based on the MOT Inspection Manual) whether constant illumination of a Ducato X250’s “External Light Failure” dashboard warning-lamp merits a test-failure if there is no evidence of an actual ‘bulb failure’ fault.

 

A Ducato X250 has a fair number of dashboard warning lights and a few of these are mandatory. Some of the lights if present and constantly illuminated (or inoperative) should result in an MOT-test failure and this is made clear in the MOT Inspection Manual. But it is not mandatory for a vehicle to have an “External Light Failure” feature, nor does the MOT Inspection Manual refer to that feature.

 

Just because a vehicle has a dashboard warning-light illuminated when it is MOT-tested does not automatically mean that the vehicle should fail the test. If a Ducato is very low on fuel the appropriate warning-light will come on and stay on: similarly if there is water in the diesel fuel filter - but in neither case should this result in a MOT-test failure.

 

The MOT-test has a limited and specific scope and if something ‘wrong’ is noticed during the test, but this not included in the Inspection Manual, a tester should turn a blind eye to it even though it might seem illogical to do so. Tell the vehicle-owner about it -Yes: fail the vehicle - No.

[tonyishuk]

Derek,

 

Thanks for your reply, as a fellow Rapido owner you may appreciate the irony of the story.

 

After a bit of discussion about the problem and the offer that I was welcome to take the vehicle else where to see if I could get a pass, I remembered that I had a similar problem caused by the connectors on a loom on the chassis between the Rapido rear lights and cab.

 

He disappeared under the Rapido and surfaced with “I may have a solution to the problem”

 

Turned out to be the fog lights connector (see photo), which is not a pretty sight, also considering the spade connection is the live connector !

 

Rgds

[Alanb]

To quote Flanders & Swan, "Who made this circuit up for you anyway?". As you say not a pretty sight, but may I suggest an absolute disgrace.

 

Alan

[Derek Uzzell]

Tony’s 2016 MOT-related problem (described here)

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-2009-2010-X250-Fog-Lights-Rear-/41391/

 

differs from Colin’s as Tony’s Rapido apparently failed the test because its rear fog-lights were inoperative. This was due to the dodgy connector shown in the photo and - quite rightly - the dashboard ‘lighting fault’ warning lamp illuminated as a consequence.

 

If there’s a genuine fault with a vehicle’s lights, and the faulty lights are covered by the MOT test, this should cause MOT-test failure. But all of Colin’s Elddis’s lights that are checkable during an MOT test work correctly and it’s merely the dashboard ‘lighting fault’ warning lamp (not covered by the test) that is false reading.

[ColinM50]

Absolutely right Derek, all my lights work fine, just it seems changing to LED bulbs causes the service light to come on. Apart from the fact the M/H is only 3 months old and an MoT isn't relevant, can't thik internal warning lights are part of the MoT anyway.

 

Took it to a Peugeot dealer, at first they said it was on because at some stage in 4,000 miles of driving I'd run the fuel level down to low and that had pinged the indicator on. Did I remember running it low on fuel? Stupid question surely? At the time is was just under quarter tank so took it to garage and refuelled. Service light still on. They had another go and this time came up with the excuse that the DRL's were wrong bulbs. So I put the old bulbs back in and guess what? Light's still on. Took it back to Peugeot dealer and as I walked in heard one of the service receptionists whisper to the other "oh no, he's back again". As if it's my fault the s*dding light's on. Anyway it's booked back in for Monday so we'll see what happens

[Derek Uzzell]

Colin

 

I’ve just looked at my 2015 Ducato-based motorhome’s Owner Handbook and I note that the warning lamp you call the “service light” appears to be referred to in my Handbook as a “Generic Failure Indication” that can warn of the following problems.

 

- Fuel inertia cut-off switch activated

- Light failure (rear fog lamps, direction indicators, brake lights, number plate lights, side lights, daytime lights, main beam automatism, trailer direction indicators, trailer side lights)

- Airbag warning light failure (generic failure - warning light flashing).

- Rain sensor failure

- Diesel filter sensor failure

- Trailer connection failure

- Audio system failure

- Engine oil pressure sensor failure

- Parking sensor failure

 

So there’s plenty of scope for guesswork when the lamp comes on.

 

You said in your original enquiry that the the light came on after you had swapped the DRL bulbs for LED equiivalents and you thought that the bulb-swapping had been the culprit. As swapping to LED bulbs is well-recognised to have the potential to cause ‘light failure’ warning lamps to illuminate, this was a reasonable assumption (and a reasonable guess on the part of your Peugeot dealer I suggest).

 

One might logically expect that replacing the LED bulbs with the your original ones would extinguish the warning lamp, but as that hasn’t happened it may be that the warning lamp coming on after you fitted LED DRL bulbs was just a coincidence. Or it may be that a ‘code’ now needs to be cleared to switch the warning lamp off. Or that the lamp would spontaneously switch itself off some time (or distance driven) after you swapped the DRL bulbs back to the originals.

 

Hopefully you’ll find out the cause when your Peugeot dealer runs diagnostics on your motorhome.

[tonyishuk]

After my fiasco with my fog lights I did learn the following from the guy who fixed the problem.

 

If you do any electrical changes to the lighting system, always disconnect the battery, do your work, then reconnect. If change a bulb, then disconnect and reconnect the battery. His theory was the ECU gets its self in a twist when it's sensing Impedence gets out of kilter. So disconnecting, a short rest, and reconnection lets the ecu stabilise. His theory was that ECUs never switch off, so collect faults and need a reboot. Some cars being worse than others.

 

Not sure if this is correct advice, but seems to make sense to me.

 

Rgds

[witzend]

ColinM50 - 2017-07-11 3:18 PM

 

Bought some LED bulbs to replace the yellowish ones on the Peugeot based Elddis M/H and jolly good they are too. However they seem to give me a problem in that the service light came on and stayed on. Suggestions please chaps.

 

I read of fitting a ( I'll call it resistor) in line before the new bulb to fool the ecu sorry can't be more help but if you know there's a solution makes searching easier

[Mick Bajcar]

As LED 'bulbs' take far less current than a conventional bulb, it is more likely that a resistor in parallel to the LEDs will be needed rather than in series. That would need to be of a value so that the current was the same with the LEDs as with a conventional bulb.

 

That resistor might get hot too

 

Mick Bajcar

[Derek Uzzell]

Resistor ‘fix’ leads are marketed to overcome the LED bulb-replacement warning-light potential problem. They were mentioned in the link I provided in my posting of 11 July 2017 5:58 PM and a 21/5W-bulb lead is shown here

 

https://www.hids-direct.co.uk/r580-w21-5w-obc-resistor-fix-1-x-lead/

 

However a) I’ve doubts about how practicable it would be to use this lead with current-model X290 Boxer and Ducato headlamps (as fitted to Colin’s Elddis and my Rapido) and b) I'm not certain Colin’s ’service light’ problem was caused by him swapping the original DRL bulbs for LED equivalents.

 

I’ve looked at the on-line Peugot Boxer handbook that should be relevant to Colin’s motorhome and confirmed (I think!) that the “Service light” he mentions is indeed the same as the “Generic Failure Indication” warning light mentioned in my Fiat Ducato handbook (ref my posting of 15 July 2017 9:18 AM above).

 

In fact, I suspect that replacing the original DRL bulbs with LED versions DID cause the ‘service light’ to come on, and I think there’s a fair chance that, having put the original bulbs back in, the service light would extinguish after the vehicle had been driven a reasonable distance (say 200km). But - as there’s now no ‘fault’ - Colin’s Peugeot dealer should be able to switch the service light off.

[ColinM50]

Just back from the dealer and as suspected they just re set the OBC and it works fine now albeit on the old bulbs.

 

Asked if there's an official Peugeot LED bulb and they say no, go on the internet and get a couple of the resistor leads and if that doesn't work and brings the warning light on, replace bulbs with originals, bring it back and they'll reset it yet again. All f.o.c. of course.

 

So I think I'll buy a pair of the gizmos Derek suggests and see what happens.

 

Oh and I asked what's the official name for the light, and they told me "orange triangle with a exclamation mark in it." So that's it, it's now officially known as a "Rexclamation Mark Innit."

 

Will keep you all updated

[Derek Uzzell]

Presumably there is sufficient room inside the headlamp-unit for the resistor-lead? (I removed my Rapido’s headlamps to fit uprated main and dipped beam bulbs, but did not look at the DRL/sidelight fitment.)

 

Idle curiosity, but I notice that the latest Boxer handbook indicates that the gear-shift indicator still only prompts a driver to ‘upshift’, whereas an X290 Ducato's gear-shift indicator will prompt for ‘downshifts’ too.

 

It was reported here that X290 Boxers would prompt for an upshift even in 6th gear (something a Ducato rightly does not)

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Peugeot-Boxer-gear-change-indicator/42048/

 

Does your Boxer prompt for an upshift in 6th gear?

[ColinM50]

OK chaps, a bit of an update and a result.

 

Although I'd said in my earlier reply that the problem was resolved, guess what? It wasn't and the light came back on again. BTW I agree that what I'd called the Service light is indeed Derek's Generic Failure Indicator, which from now is called the GFI :-)

 

So light came back on again.

 

Fault manifested itself as everything's OK as long as reverse gear isn't selected. As soon as you select reverse, engine on or off, the GFI light come on with a warning message "check Rev Lights". So took it back to Peugeot and after half an hour of "fiddling" they said they couldn't fix it, it's a problem with the rear light cluster units and Elddis have to replace the light units.

 

I park the M/H in my back garden and to get it out have to reverse it, hence the GFI is on immediately I drive away only going off if I've stopped somewhere and restarted the engine and only used forward gears

 

So since it was booked into Marquis having some other work done I asked about this GFI light. Their Tech bod said he'd seen it before but couldn't remember the fix but he'd get in touch with Elddis and ask them about it. This he duly did and Elddis had told him to get my Peugeot dealer to phone Peugeot and have a word with a chap called Mark Foster and he'd send 'em the fix. No phone numbers or locations as to where he might be so I had little hope. Phoned my dealer and they said they did in fact know Mark Foster and would call me back which all went to plan

 

It was booked in for fix number five yesterday. And TADA, it's all working fine now albeit. Well actually the light's not working which is what I want.

 

With a view to posting it here, I asked the dealer if I could have a copy of the fix "for my own records" but they said no, it's their intellectual property and proprietary information and not for publication, but if you've got a similar issue at least this might be a starting point?

 

Now back to the LED DRL issue. In the interim I spoke with a very nice man at Osram lighting and he told me to buy a couple of their gizmos, which are indeed resistors and wire them in parallel inside the headlight unit - they're only tiny and are "scotchlocked" to the relevant wires and he says that'll sort the problem. Must admit not had the courage to try them yet. 8-)

 

These gizmos are properly called LED Canbus Control Units, part number LEDCBCTRL101. Got mine from here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Osram-LEDCBCTRL101-Driving-Canbus-Control/dp/B00I409J9G

 

Let's just hope that this solves the issue though I'm not 100% convinced that I'll change the DRL's, maybe I can put up with the standard yellow DRL's after all? :$

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that the Osram product comes in 5W and 21W versions.

 

I assume the 21W version

 

http://tinyurl.com/y86ys49n

 

would be needed when a LED bulb is to replace a W21/5W halogen bulb.

[Tintent115]

I'm following this thread with interest as I have an X290 Fiat Autotrail with the "yellow" halogen DRL's......

 

Not being too impressed with them and worrying that changing them for LED bulbs would produce a canbus related error I just fitted the Ledcom units in the lower bumper, which of course have a canbus independent supply. Overall I'm happy with that set up, but if a tried & tested conversion to LED's in place of yellow halogens comes along I will make the upgrade.......

 

thanks.....

[Tony Jones]

Never liked the idea of DRLs anyway. If it's a gloomy afternoon, or raining, I put my headlights on. If it's not, no lights needed.

(I'll get my hard hat now)

[Keithl]

ColinM50 - 2017-08-15 9:58 AM

 

Now back to the LED DRL issue. In the interim I spoke with a very nice man at Osram lighting and he told me to buy a couple of their gizmos, which are indeed resistors and wire them in parallel inside the headlight unit - they're only tiny and are "scotchlocked" to the relevant wires and he says that'll sort the problem. Must admit not had the courage to try them yet.

 

Colin,

 

'Scotchlocks' are a very poor way of making a connection to an exisiting wire and are not recommended by many manufacturers.

 

First off they damage the insulation potentially allowing moisture to enter the wire and cause corrosion but secondly, and most importantly, they damage the individual strands of the wire and can cause high resistance and power loss and, in extreme circumstances, overheating and melting of the wire.

 

The approved method of joining to an existing wire is to strip a short length of insulation off the wire WITHOUT CUTTING THE WIRE, then solder the new wire on to the exposed wire. Finally insulate with tape.

 

Keith.

 

PS I know others will come back and say they've used 'Scotchlocks' for years without issue but believe me I've seen more problems caused by them than any other type of connector!

[ColinM50]

Point taken Keithl, but the kit from Osram, a respected OEM to the automotive industry, supplies four scotchlock type connectors so I reckon that must be "good enough".

 

I'm sure your method of cable joining is a good one, though coming from a peripheral area of the aircraft manufacturing industry I'd be reluctant to use insulating tape, that's a more Heath Robinson solution isn't it?

 

Over the years I've read many posts on many different forums on the question of how to join cables, and very few agree with each other. Everyone has their pet solution. In this case I think I'll go with Osram's scotchlocking. If I pluck up the courage to try it.

 

Next Q is where to pick up a 12v supply that's switched when reversing lights come on for the fitting of a second reversing camera. Ho hum, onwards and upwards, there's always something to do isn't there?

 

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi, I seem to remember postin about the advisory I received on mot for my van.

 

It read that some of the leds in the stop light circuit on one side were missing, so brightness was reduced, but only Advisory.

 

Subesequent investigation discovered that ALL the LEDS were missing..there never were any.. it was ALWAYS A STANDARD BULB FITTING. And simple clean up of the contacts solved the problem..

 

Not exactly relevant but, interesting anyway.

 

Why have the fitted running lights..what is wrong with turning on sidelights when relevant..

Why complicate it with a computer system.. a switch is more reliable...

 

Stupid technology.. bring back horse and cart !!!!

 

Tonyg3nwl

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Keith

 

I agree with your comments about Scotchlock connectors.

 

‘CANbus-fooling’ resistors (potentially) suitable for LED replacements for the W21/5W halogen bulbs used in non-LED-DRL headlamps are marketed in two varieties

 

http://tinyurl.com/ycfrtcnp

 

One type is parallel-connected to the existing wiring using Scotchlock connectors (example here)

 

http://tinyurl.com/y9ovxxsj

 

while the other type is connected in series between the headlamp’s existing DRL-bulb connectors (example here)

 

http://tinyurl.com/y7pwgroc

 

The resistor I mentioned in my posting of 17 July 2017 8:33 AM above uses the ‘in series’ connection technique, but you’ll note from the link

 

https://www.hids-direct.co.uk/r580-w21-5w-obc-resistor-fix-1-x-lead/

 

that the product is currently out of stock and (from the Questions/Answers on the link) that fitting the extra wiring into the headlamp MIGHT be an issue.

 

Personally, I would only use Scotchlock connectors when it’s near-as-dammit impossible to connect in any other way (eg. when I was installing a SOG system in my Rapido) and - as the ‘in series’ alternative is available - I would have sought to avoid the Scotchlock approach.

 

..........................................................................................................................................................

 

Tony Jones

 

DRLs come as standard on X290-based motorhomes, with the illumination being provided by a halogen bulb or (in an optional more expensive headlamp) by an integrated strip of LEDS.

 

The driver can choose to activate/deactivate the DRLs via the vehicle’s Menu system, so if you owned an X290-based motorhome and had a real aversion to DRLs, you could switch them off and turn on your headlamps in poor visibility conditions.

 

Or you could do as I do and treat the DRLs as if they aren’t there, leave them activated and, in poor visibility conditions, turn on the headlamps.

 

Having said that (and as has been observed above) the X290 21W halogen-bulb DRLs are far from bright and replacing them with LED equivalents should make them (and the vehicle) more visible to other road users, which is the primary objective of having DRLs in the first place.

[bodach]

For the last 2 years I have had an advisory on my mot as the tester says the rear top marker lights dim when something else is turned on. Nobody else can see anything wrong and I have not spoken to the tester to find out what his problem is. First time he was off for lunch and second time a garage doing remedial work took the van to the same tester. I would have been seriously annoyed if it had been failed. I intend to ignore this advisory anyway and go elsewhere for my next mot.

[Derek Uzzell]

bodach

 

The high-level marker lamps fitted to many motor-caravans are not the same as the DRLs (Daytime Running Lamps) that have been discussed above and are described here

 

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/daytime-running-lights

 

Section 1.1 of the MOT Inspection Manual (viewable/downloadable on-line) advises on DRLs as follows:

 

"Daytime running lamps are not testable unless they replace the front position lamps. Where this is the case, they should dim when the position lamps are switched on and may extinguish when the headlamps are switched on.”

 

..........................................................................................................................................................

 

Section 1.1 of the MOT Inspection Manual advises on ‘end outline marker lamps’ as follows:

 

"End outline marker lamps are required on vehicles exceeding 2.1 metres (2100mm) in width and first used on or after 1 April 1991, and are in addition to front and rear position lamps. There must be two white lamps visible from the front positioned at windscreen upper edge level or higher and two red lamps visible from the rear, positioned as high as is practicable. Note: the front and rear end outline marker lamps may be combined in one lamp.”

 

A reason for test-rejection is if these lamps prove to be "adversely affected by the operation of any other lamp.”

 

HOWEVER (according to the MOT Inspection Manual) inspection of end outline marker lamps “...ONLY APPLIES TO CLASS 5 VEHICLES fitted with front and rear position lamps”.

 

MOT vehicle classes are listed here

 

https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/mot-test-fees

 

and it will be seen that ‘motor-caravans’ are categorised as Class 4 vehicles.

 

On that basis, It appears that - unless the vehicle you are referring to is not a motor-caravan and falls into Class 5 - the MOT tester should have ignored your vehicle’s high-level marker lamps during the test and, even though the lamps may dim when something else is turned on, this should not have resulted in an advisory notice on the MOT test certificate.