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Discharged leisure battery


Zafira

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Evening All

 

Yet another leisure battery question from me but I know there'll be words of wisdom proffered............. The leisure battery is the original one fitted to the brand new Wildax van which I bought in May 2018.

 

The Energy Bull leisure battery (connected to a solar charger) is on its way out I believe (or next to it as the lights do work on the 12v system) and I think I've been very lucky to get 3.5 years out of it.

 

I've regularly checked the water level in the battery on a quarterly basis, topping up with distilled water as necessary though at no time was the water level such that it exposed the plates. Last time I checked the level was mid-Sept.

 

Today the motorhome display panel is showing 12volts state of charge for the leisure battery and I've arranged with a local caravan/motorhome workshop for them to fit a new leisure battery next week. However before they can fit the battery I'd already booked a couple of nights away in the van, on hook-up.

 

My question: Is there anything I should be doing to ensure my own safety whilst having what appears to be a discharged leisure battery on board?? There is no sulphurous smell from the leisure battery area nor is the battery and its holding container warm to touch, and there's a breather tube in place.

 

Many thanks

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Batteries do self discharge but it is a matter of how much over how long a period.

 

My inclination would to to see if if there is a minor discharge when the there is no load on the system. Ie everything switched off. If there is it needs investigation. Or if unable to locate the missing amps, a battery isolation switch fitted.

 

Quite my above thoughts fit with those who have solar panels fitted, I don’t know, there maybe some reverse flow overnight or dull days.

 

Rgds

 

I do not have a solar panel but rely on EHU and regular top ups with a charger, My Banner battery managed nine years before it was asked to leave.

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Zafira - 2021-11-19 5:11 PM

 

...My question: Is there anything I should be doing to ensure my own safety whilst having what appears to be a discharged leisure battery on board?? There is no sulphurous smell from the leisure battery area nor is the battery and its holding container warm to touch, and there's a breather tube in place.

 

Many thanks

 

As long as the electrolyte-level in your Banner battery is OK (eg. above the battery’s plates) you should be perfectly fine on 230V hook-up.

 

A 12.0 voltage readout represents a 40%-50% charge-state and may well indicate that your battery needs replacing. You could try experimenting by putting a significant load on the battery (eg. switching on the blown-air heating) while your motorhome is not on hook-up and its motor is not running and checking if the voltage reading drops dramatically - but I wouldn’t bother.

 

I replaced my 2015 Rapido’s Banner Energy Bull battery last year with a Varta LFD90 purely as a precautionary measure. I keep the Banner battery in my garage and use it as a ‘slave’ to power 12V appliances. After 6 years It still maintains its charge reasonably well and it happily accepts charge without any signs of distress.

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Zafira , It may be worth getting the garage that are fitting a replacement battery to check that the solar panel charge controller that should have been keeping the leisure battery charged up , from the solar panel , and above 12v , is working as it should be , as , if it is not working , that may account for the normal power loss (when left for some time) , that the solar panel charging should , if working ok , replace as needed , keeping the battery fully charged , when parked up and not in use. (as long as sunlight has been available ) .
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Morning

 

Many thanks for the responses particularly Derek's reassurance that so long as battery fluid level ok the battery will be ok.

 

Alpha Batteries have suggested a 12v Yuasa 100ah EFB Leisure Battery (L36-EFB). I've also asked their advice wrt a replacement solar controller - I've attached a photo here of the controller in situ (I think its a cheapy one??) but will get the caravan workshop guy to test it as he replaces the battery so thanks for that suggestion, mind you in the wilds of Scotland we've got perennial grey days atm but even so the solar panel appears to have previously kept the battery at an acceptable state of charge.

1048137963_resizedSolarsetupConstellation3-2018(2).thumb.jpg.1fd425ca1fcc9a8751082a4cf5cac0c1.jpg

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Presumably, there is no "meter" accessory fitted in the OPs case? That's info could be valuable in knowing what the solar system is doing.

A cheap automotive current tester as in the link below is a valuable tool, enabling checks on the made on the current the solar system is pushing out, and for a host of other tests including checking the parasitic drains on the batteries.

 

These testers come in at least two forms designed to suit the size of blade fuse they are required for. They fit in place of the fuse, that in turn is placed into the slot in the probe. With it installed the circuit functions, where or not the tester is switched on or not, so can be left installed if desired.

 

https://cpc.farnell.com/c/test-equipment/testers-detectors-calibration/automotive-testers/automotive-current-testers/prl/results

 

 

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Zafira - 2021-11-20 11:31 AM

 

...Alpha Batteries have suggested a 12v Yuasa 100ah EFB Leisure Battery (L36-EFB)....

 

The three ‘favourites’ that have been suggested on this forum in the past as direct replacements for a Banner Energy Bull 100Ah 95751 leisure battery have been

 

1: Varta LFD90 (superseded by an EFB Varta range but still available.)

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/varta/lfd90/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36fa54in9AIVweN3Ch0bZwumEAQYASABEgLj-PD_BwE

 

2: Yuasa L36-EFB

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-yuasa-100ah-efb-leisure-battery-l36-efb/

 

3: Exide ET650

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-100ah-exide-et650-leisure-battery-ncc-class-a/

 

The Yuasa L36-EFB is also sold by Halfords, but re-labelled as a HLB700

 

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/batteries/leisure-batteries/halfords-leisure-battery-hlb700-682063.html

 

and the Varta EFB equivalent to the LFD90 is the LED95

 

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-90ah-varta-lfd-90-professional-leisure-battery-930090080?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI36fa54in9AIVweN3Ch0bZwumEAQYAyABEgJHcfD_BwE

 

The Varta and Yuasa/Halfords batteries are ‘no maintenance” type (ie. their electrolyte-level cannot be topped up) but I THINK the Exide battery is ‘low maintenance’ (ie, the electrolyte-level can checked, but should rarely need topping up).

 

All of the batteries will need a vent-tube (breather) and I think it should be straightforward connecting the vent-tube used with your Banner battery to any of the above batteries. (Although Banner Energy Bull batteries have an oddly designed ‘hole' to take a vent-tube, I’m pretty sure the elbow connector on the tube itself will fit the standard holes of other batteries without any modifications being needed. Certainly I don’t remember having to alter the tube’s elbow when I swapped a Banner Energy Bull for a Varta LFD90.)

 

You might ask Alpha Batteries their opinion of the relative merits of the Yuasa L36-EFB versus the (more expensive/longer warranty) Exide ET650 as they sell both. But the Yuasa should be perfectly OK and at least you wouldn’t need to concern yourself with electrolyte-level checking.

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Derek

 

Thanks for heads-up wrt breather tube. I'll ask Alpha wrt the Exide battery.

 

A much brighter day here so solar panel picking up a bit more, such that habitation battery reading 12.4 volts this morning. Took van for long run, the alternator is indeed charging the vehicle and habitation batteries according to the display panel (14.1 and 13.9 respectively and 16.1A being "delivered") when engine running.

 

Back home, engine off, solar panel (120W) putting 2.4A into habitation battery, though voltage of habitation battery already hovering between 12.6 and 12.8volts

 

I really need to gird my loins and have a bash at using a multimeter - I believe I'm reasonably well technically minded for a woman ;-) Seem to be plenty of youtube videos out there showing you how to test a battery - I presume I can leave habitation battery in situ (van disconnected from hook-up), all connected up but will need to work out how to switch off the solar controller - the instructions show the top right button as having an on/off mode but don't state how long to press it in order to de-power the controller and I think that puts me off using the multimeter too if I'm honest - to top up the hab battery I cover the solar panel width a length of old carpet ;-) Presumably if I do test the hab battery with a multimeter I should let it rest for say 4 hours after isolating the solar controller?

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Using the automotive current tester I identified yesterday is way easier than configuring a normal multimeter to establish the currents flowing.

Not that it replaces a multi meter, these are ideal for many things including measuring voltages, but that "tester" really compliments the multi meter for the more challenging task of measuring the current.

A good quality clip on meter would do, but is relatively expensive, and can struggle with accuracy at low currents as many parasitic drains tend to be. In real terms our batteries hold little energy, making even small current drains from them where prolonged, into an issue, hence the need to be able to measure these small amounts.

 

From your latest post, IMO things could well be okay, it just being one or both batteries need more charging.

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Zafira - 2021-11-20 11:31 AM

 

Morning

 

Many thanks for the responses particularly Derek's reassurance that so long as battery fluid level ok the battery will be ok.

 

Alpha Batteries have suggested a 12v Yuasa 100ah EFB Leisure Battery (L36-EFB). I've also asked their advice wrt a replacement solar controller - I've attached a photo here of the controller in situ (I think its a cheapy one??) but will get the caravan workshop guy to test it as he replaces the battery so thanks for that suggestion, mind you in the wilds of Scotland we've got perennial grey days atm but even so the solar panel appears to have previously kept the battery at an acceptable state of charge.

 

I use a dual battery controller like yours and it works fine.

Just wondering if you have the User Manual as it can be downloaded from this site.

https://www.sunstore.co.uk/product/ep-solar-duo-battery-solar-charge-controller-12-24v-20a/

B-)

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Zafira - 2021-11-20 11:31 AM

 

Morning

 

I've also asked their advice wrt a replacement solar controller... mind you in the wilds of Scotland we've got perennial grey days atm but even so the solar panel appears to have previously kept the battery at an acceptable state of charge.

 

It may be worth checking the charging priority setting. I find that in the winter months 50:50 is ok whilst in summer months I set it to 80:20 leisure / cab.

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Thanks once again for comments/help.

 

A Yuasa L36-EFB has been delivered from Alpha Batteries today, they have been very helpful. I did run Derek's suggested alternatives past Alpha however they suggested I stick with the Yuasa.

 

A local NCC workshop is putting the new battery in the van on Friday (I've only got the one habitation battery) & meanwhile I've belatedly worked out what the the solar controller's fuses look like/where they are and have removed them (praise be to Youtube!). I've got a copy of the instructions for the solar controller printed off (thanks Lancepar) and will discuss with the workshop about tweaking the settings to put a bit more oomph into the vehicle battery during the winter - I've never adjusted it from the 80/20 setting it had when originally installed but have noticed in winter months how the vehicle battery will lose a bit of charge (thanks rayc).

 

Once again a big thank you to all - very reassuring to know there's a band of knowledgeable folk out there willing to proffer advice!

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Zafira, your charge voltage is too low and needs raising if possible. Yhe new batteries want 14.4v ideally. Those flooded lead acid batteries that are being replaced should have had 14.8v and with temperature adjustment 15v during the winter. If there is any money in the budget and I am aware its easy to spend someone else's money, then a Victron 75/10 or 75/15 Smart MPPT will help. Get the Smart version with blue tooth if you have an iphone which has a brilliant app to control and see what is going on.

 

The other widget is the Victron Smart Battery Sense at £38 if the solar controller is separate from the batteries. This will feed accurate voltage and temperature to the MPPT. Works brilliantly and with the previous Trojan batteries we saw 15.1v whilst sailing over Xmas. Yes we sailed across the Solent on Christmas Day with the turkey cooking in the oven. :-) Since the water temp was about 5'c the MPPT adjusted the voltage up to provide the correct charge profile for lead acid. Equally we have seen the voltage be adjusted down during the summer when the water temperature in Weymouth harbour touched 26'c. I thought there must be a mistake but the temperature gun widget confirmed the battery temperature.

 

Pete

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The soon-to-be-exchanged Banner Energy Bull sole habitation battery is showing 12.4V today (fuses removed from the solar controller) and it is mighty nippy here north of the border. I'd been away for a couple of days this week therefore on hook-up for almost 48 hrs so to my mind that Banner battery is just not holding its charge.

 

I have been very conscientious in ensuring the Banner has been topped up, checking it every 3 months and at no point were any of the plates exposed, but I will be relieved not to have to go through that process with the Yuasa :-D

 

 

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The saga continues but a different problem has arisen:-

 

New battery installed by local workshop, they checked all the fuses, connections to solar panel etc, solar panel charging the new battery but what isn't working since they put the new battery in (& whilst still at the workshop) is the CBE PC380 control panel - its absolutely dead as a dodo. Cue much checking of fuses again including split charger but 12 volt supply to powering van electrics is just not there - so Truma control panel shows error message relating to no 12V side too & CBE control panel still dead. Workshop hooked van up to mains to see if more amps going in would push it over 13.5Volts (it showed 14.2A going in on their multimeter) & perhaps reverse some safety shut-down feature but still no show from CBE panel. After much use of google in a hunt for any light that could be shed they promised they will get to the bottom of it & sent me on my way. I took van for a 35 mile robust run along the motorway before arriving home - control panel still dead. As one last ditch attempt van has been put on hook-up for 24hrs.

 

So as things stand I cannot use the van currently other than I would use my car, purely to get me from A to B...... Does anybody have any words of wisdom to offer please?!

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This 2020 forum thread related to a CBE PC380 control-panel that had suddenly died.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Control-panel-blackout/56637/

 

and another instance was discussed in this 2018 MHFun thread

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/control-panel-failure-help-please.235048/

 

I don't know if this CBE panel is more failure-prone than others, but (should a new panel be needed) the PC380 panel used by Wildax may have 'bespoke' features. That's just guesswork on my part, but the advert below shows two PC380 panels, with the 'Wildax' panel being significantly more expensive. This suggests to me that the Wildax PC380 panel may not be 'generic'.

 

https://www.southdownsmotorcaravans.com/electrical-equipment/control-panels/cbe-control-panels.html

 

 

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Derek - many thanks for that particular nugget of information wrt a CBE control panel being configured especially for Wildax vans if it transpires to be the case that the panel does have to be replaced. I think the workshop had found your suggested query links this morning because they attempted to look for the "SOS" fitting.

 

Would exchanging the Banner Energy Bull battery to the Yuasa have terminally "freaked out" the control panel I wonder?? I may attempt to contact Wildax next week & see if they have any views in addition.

 

As ever many thanks for reading & suggesting potential resolutions.

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Zafira - 2021-11-26 4:46 PM

.......................... but what isn't working since they put the new battery in (& whilst still at the workshop) is the CBE PC380 control panel - its absolutely dead as a dodo. .........................................

Two things. First, do you know if the PC380 was "on" when the battery was changed? Second, do you know where the main (50A?) 12V supply is installed on your van? It might be under the passenger seat, but should be near, or at, the leisure battery. I assume this fuse was on of those checked.

 

I ask, because our PC110 panel goes dead if it is left on when no water is in the fresh water tank. I have found it can be re-set by removing that fuse, so isolating all the 12V electrics, then waiting a few seconds, and then re-inserting the fuse. It would probably be wise to unhook the EHU when doing this, just in case doing it with the charger on line might damage the charger.

 

Finally, if you have the CBE handbook, does it say anything about the minimum voltage at which the control panel shuts off the 12V supply, and how to reinstate the supply subsequently?

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Brian - to the best of my recollection from this morning, the CBE manual contains nothing about a sequence to be followed if planning to remove habitation battery (blowing a hooley here and snowing so I will recheck the manual again tomorrow - its currently in the van) nor anything about a minimum voltage and the fall-out if that min voltage is not present.

 

When I handed the van over to the workshop this morning the control panel was "ON" - nothing was mentioned by them once I discovered that the control panel wasn't working about switching it off prior to undertaking the battery exchange.

 

The control panel is up on the bulkhead above the rear of the passenger seat by the sliding door whereas all the other CBE gubbins/ split charger/habitation battery/solar controller are all under the 3rd passenger seat - I was sitting in the van as the workshop guys tested all the fuses in this area, more than once - I think they are genuinely stumped.

 

This evening I've put a question onto the Wildax forum asking if anyone has had any issues when switching from the Wildax Banner battery recommendation to a different make (but same battery technology).

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Zafira

 

Your original Banner battery and the Yuasa replacement are both 'wet-acid' type, though the Yuasa is dual-purpose (engine-starting and 'leisure') while the Banner is just 'leisure'. So replacing the Banner with the Yuasa SHOULD be a simple procedure.

 

I'm a mite concerned about your comment that the control-panel was turned on when you handed over your motorhome to the workshop. There's no doubt in my mind that, before replacing the Banner battery, any 'load' or 'charge' on the battery should be eliminated. Solar panels should not be charging the battery and anything powered by the battery (fridge, control-panel, etc) should be switched off and not switched back on until the replacement battery had been installed.

 

My Rapido's Banner Energy Bull battery was easily accessible and there's a fuse in a plastic holder next to where the leisure battery is mounted. When I replaced the Banner battery with a Varta LFD90, I made certain that there was nothing switched on that the Banner battery might be powering and I then removed the fuse, reversing the sequence after the Varta battery had been fitted and connected up.

 

It's possible that, if the control-panel was still switched on when the Banner battery was disconnected, it affected the panel or the Distribution Box that the panel is connected to, but I'm not sure how culpability could be established. The simplest check would be to replace the panel with one known to be working OK and see what happens. Best to wait until Wildax get back to you, though...

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My worry would be that if the solar regulator was still connected and 'live' when the battery was disconnected then it could easily have defaulted to 24 volt output when reconnected to the new battery. As far as I understand you have to connect the regulator to the battery to 'set' the voltage before connecting the panel to the regulator, doing the opposite can have damaging results, ie raising the system voltage to 24 volts.

 

Keith.

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Brian Kirby - 2021-11-26 7:12 PM

Zafira - 2021-11-26 4:46 PM

.......................... but what isn't working since they put the new battery in (& whilst still at the workshop) is the CBE PC380 control panel - its absolutely dead as a dodo. .........................................

Two things. First, do you know if the PC380 was "on" when the battery was changed? Second, do you know where the main (50A?) 12V supply is installed on your van? It might be under the passenger seat, but should be near, or at, the leisure battery. I assume this fuse was on of those checked. ...................................

 

I realise I'm causing confusion with the above. Can't get the staff, can you? :-) It should have read as follows:

 

Two things. First, do you know if the PC380 was "on" when the battery was changed? Second, do you know where the main (50A?) 12V fuse is installed on your van? It might be under the passenger seat, but should be near, or at, the leisure battery. I assume this fuse was one of those checked.

 

From your later post, it seems the Truma has power at least as far as its control panel. You'll need to look at the CBE manual, and especially the illustration of the internal layout of the CBE DS300 distribution box, to see which connector serve which appliances. However, as you don't know the actual cause of the problem, I think experimenting would be unwise.

 

You say you've contacted the Wildax forum. I wonder if you might be better off contacting Wildax directly, as they should have someone who is properly familiar with the CBE equipment, and with the package of CBE controls installed in your van. I don't know how long Wildax have been fitting CBE kit, but suggestions from the forum may be based on different generations of CBE kit, or even no CBE kit. Not everyone reads with due care! :-)

 

It seems the workshop to which you took the van for the battery change may not be familiar with the CBE kit either, so they may need instruction from Wildax, or the van may have to go to the Wildax factory in Elland, or to your nearest Wildax dealer (Motorhome Escapades, nr Edingurgh?), to get the panel to re-set.

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