BruceM Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 My van has a 12v/230v inverter fitted. It’s a big chunk of a thing and at the moment I can’t for the life of me think of a reason to keep it. The negatives are: It’s situated behind the passenger seat and restricts the swivel movement. I read somewhere that 230v inverters cane the leisure batteries. It’s unnecessary weight. The only reason I can think to use it would be to power a laptop but that is probably better done from a 12v laptop charger. The positives are: Blowed if I know. Views from experienced motorhomers (of which I’m not) would be welcome. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 If you don't have a use... get rid. It was probably put in for something particular by the previous owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Bruce This is maybe what you're previously read? http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/inverters.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 arthur49 - 2017-06-17 2:38 PM Bruce This is maybe what you're previously read? http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/inverters.php Spot on! That's the one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 We had an inverter for the roof aircon. We took the air con off as it was very heavy , and we had weight problems! So we also took out the inverter that powered it (more weight) Looked abit like your one. If you take it out, sell it on e bay , we did with the aircon. As you say probably not need by you. If you stay on sites no problem charging lap top, any way PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 Many thanks for the advice. Decision made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Looking at your picture, with the plugs on it, we did not have them, ours was just wired directly to the aircon. Guess previous owners needed plugs !! PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 The sentiments expressed echo my own thoughts over the last 26 years of M/H ownership. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 very useful for charging our electric bike batteries when no on EHU.... ....and for running our Sky+HD box when off grid, too... so, a useful gadget......for those that need them ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 PJay - 2017-06-17 3:00 PM We had an inverter for the roof aircon. We took the air con off as it was very heavy , and we had weight problems! So we also took out the inverter that powered it (more weight) Looked abit like your one. If you take it out, sell it on e bay , we did with the aircon. As you say probably not need by you. If you stay on sites no problem charging lap top, any way PJay PJay you may have had a lucky escape? We took a call this morning from a Motorhome Dealer in Southern Spain who wanted to buy one of the Calira 30/20's that we have advertised on eBay asking if we will ship to Spain. When we asked what the condition of the old one was, he said, "it's been on fire. We fitted an Inverter to power the 230v Aircon while the customer was driving, but the Calira box couldn't handle the current". I am guessing the Aircon is around 1,200watts so with conversion losses that could easily be 130amps being drawn by the Inverter. They wired the Inverter directly from the Habitation batteries, even though it was the Alternator that was the energy source. Don't know why they didn't wire the Inverter from the Starter battery with a 'trigger' from the Alternator D+ so it only operated when the engine was running? Then again even that is a stupid idea with a big Aircon unit, so scrub that. Anyway the 130amps go from the Alternator, through the Calira Charger/Distribution box and then onto the Habitation batteries, but effectively powering the Inverter direct. Not many Motorhomes have charger units or wiring that will handle that at sort of current, even if the Alternator could. Just 100amps would be a challenge for most Motorhomes. Even those Motorhomes with a separate Split Charge relay outside the main distribution unit are normally only capable of 50amps reliable continuous current. You can see from the photo below, of a similar Calira 30/12, that the connectors are going to struggle with 40amps, let alone 100a +. We declined to supply a replacement box on the basis that a repeat failure would occur again within weeks and it was a waste of the customers money without first addressing the reason for the over load on the Calira. But the person was adamant it was a valid and viable modification. Despite the fire suggesting otherwise? Small Inverters off two batteries can be useful, but even if you keep the maximum current draw to under 20amps per 100Ah battery and have 5 x 100Ah batteries to maintain battery life with a 1,000watt Inverter, some charging system has got to put all that power back. Not something most pre 2017 Motorhomes are designed to handle in standard form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Slightly different scenario to the above problem and this time from Mr G.B in France, but you can see in the photo below that the Calira 30/20 has caught fire at the main Starter Battery/Alternator inputs into the box. On opening the unit it is obvious that the seat of the fire is the socket with the heat welded plug you can see in the photo. A genuine fire inside the box that is the result of excessive current going through both the Alternator input into the Unit and out to the Habitation battery. Unlike the above Spanish problem where the Alternator was effectively powering the Air Con unit directly through the Calira, this 30/20 has been overloaded by the Alternator trying to put back into the batteries the current taken out by the Inverter. I would guess the habitation batteries are also past their best thereby adding to the load. The PCB board is burnt beyond salvation, obviously the unit is scrap. As these are no longer available new, and with a repair no longer possible, what does the owner do? You could spend hours matching the wiring to a different manufacturers Power unit and display screen, but getting the new display to look 'Factory fit' in the big hole left by the old Calira Bord might be time consuming? Whichever way you go the bill is going to be big and the end result enough to make any future purchaser think twice about buying a Motorhome with non standard wiring. In this case the fire was contained inside the box, luckily the 'Split charge relay' appears to have been the first to be burnt to a frazzle breaking the power. Look after your Power Controller/Charger Unit, they do not have unlimited capacity and are very expensive if you burn them out. This doen't just apply to Calira, but early Schaudt units like the EBL 104, Nordelettronica Fuseboards, Arsilicii units, Benimar SAPSE units, etc. You can't just add a big battery bank and Inverter to all Motorhome power controllers without there being consequences. Few Motorhomes will handle a 1,000 watt Inverter without Tears, let alone a 3,000 watt unit. Some of the power Controller/charger units won't even support a second battery, let alone an Inverter as well. ALL Motorhome Power Controller/Chargers have a limit on the size of the battery bank they support. Some will take three batteries, others struggle with just a single 100Ah battery. Remember this is not about the limitations of the mains charger inside the unit, but the current being passed through by the Alternator. The mains charger limitations in handling a battery bank have been covered before and that is a separate issue to these we are seeing more of now. See more here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php There have been many magazine articles published on Motorhome electrical upgrades without any warnings of the consequences or provisos to ensure the Power Controller/Charger, wiring, etc can handle the load. If you have followed the 'expert' advice in a magazine article, extolling the virtues of additional batteries and Inverters, and subsequently suffer a huge bill to sort out the fire damage that then resulted, send the magazine the Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Any electrical work to your house has to follow regulations and be signed off by a qualified person. As of 1 January 2005 it is a legal requirement for all work on fixed electrical installations in dwellings and associated buildings to comply with relevant standards. The relevant UK standard is BS 7671:2008, 'Requirements for electrical installations' (The IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition). It looks like any herbert can do equally dangerous work to a motorhome without any control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Muswell, it is worse than that, because these changes to add batteries and Invertors are actually being promoted by magazine 'experts'!! The other month one such expert ask me, how can adding a second battery be dangerous? So we showed him this photo below : - He had no idea that the majority of Motorhomes around the World, have the 'Split charge relay' inside the main Power unit, so all current from the Alternator has to pass through the box to get to the habitation battery. All explained on the webpage with the link posted earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 And it's more complicated than a domestic situation which just requires you to follow some very simple rules. The motorhome stuff with all the extra battery, solar panel, inverter, controller and battery charger business actually requires an understanding of the fundamentals of electrical engineering and of how the system works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 I think the sheer number of people with issues bears testament to your statement. Don't know what the answer is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Some years past I went through the inverter 'must have' equipment and decided I would prefer to use less accessories than trust its safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-07-10 4:31 PM I think the sheer number of people with issues bears testament to your statement. Don't know what the answer is. KISS Keep It Simple S***** Will86 - 2017-07-10 4:35 PM Some years past I went through the inverter 'must have' equipment and decided I would prefer to use less accessories than trust its safety. Fortunately never went that way Will. I never saw the need for loads of extra gadgets and hence extra batteries and solar! The OH only gets the TV if we have EHU, simple!!! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 On our longer wild camping trips Spain Portugal etc we use our inverter, we have a domestic spin drier and a few wizzes in it and our washing is almost dry, certainly not dripping so we like the inverter,the spinner only uses 150 watts so with our two batteries and Solar panels we have no problems and as we are anti campsites and are for ever off the grid, different strokes for different folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Off topic here but I also had to have a Gennie in our early days of camping so I bought an Honda E100i, I used it for about 10 hours in total and now it just sits in a cupboard at home, I never liked the Gennie, as I thought it noisey and intrusive and I did not like carrying a can of petrol as there was always a smell from the petrol even though it was in a proper container ,it was pretty useless as it was only giving about 5 Amps output, not a lot of good for much, the telly we had was powered by twelve volt as most are these days , so the heavy noisey lump of the Gennie became obsolete, I keep it though for what reason I do not know?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Use fuel cells. Your mobile is not a power plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 This photo was attached to an email which arrived this afternoon asking for a quote to repair. I don't know the cause, but a second big battery has been added and probably allowed to become tired. They were driving when it caught fire, so I bet that Alternator charging is involved somewhere? My guess for the failure would be the usual heavy current drawn by the Fridge and two tired batteries from the Alternator through this fuseboards Split Charge relay. The Fuseboard connectors are just not designed for heavy duty current. The bill to sort this isn't going to be small, if the Alternator hasn't survived, then add on another £500? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Your comment had me rushing out to the van to check the fridge. At 12v it's rated at 130w so I guess that’s 10.8 amps. Is that considered a heavy load? I was under the impression that the EBL was designed to handle the fridge load when the engine is running so would accommodate this plus an appropriate margin. I’d also assumed that it handled this separate from any EBL battery charging electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 The Schaudt Elektroblock EBL 99 onwards range has massive cabling and inbuilt resilience compared to many set-ups. Probably the most robust set-up around when handling the Alternator charge. We generally only see burning when the Cab Earths start to fail and it uses the EBL negatives as a backup. Yes it also has the capability to run a big Fridge/Freezer, provided everything is in order. The Alternator to Fridge power supply line is a separate input to the EBL, but only has a 20a fuse, which frequently shows signs of overheating but only because of issues elsewhere in the cabling/connections. Not unusual to see the Fridge connectors overheated on an EBL 99. Usually Block 2 though sometimes Block 1. Later models of EBL, like the 220, use a Alternator to EBL/Fridge connector with a much higher current rating. This Black 3 Pin connector can be seen in the bottom left hand corner in the photo below. The new Black 4 pin connector above it supplying the Fridge and the Electric Foldaway bed. When we saw 17amps 2 weeks ago on a Rimor Super Brigg's Fridge/Freezer it did surprise me as until then I had been working on a 13amp figure. But the wiring was in good order, connectors good, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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