Ducato rear springs and bumpstops

[snowie]

Van has just been through mot and passed. No advisories as far as I know at the moment, but mechanic mentioned that rear bumpstops are compressed and rear springs are maybe showing signs of use. Sounds a bit like an element of “drooping” due to fact that as a camper the van is comparatively heavily loaded on a permanent basis. The payload is a relatively small proportion of total load, and van carries all the stuff that makes it a camper all of the time.

 

Has anybody had similar “advice” and what did you do?

Regards, Snowie.

[Derek Uzzell]

These 2011 forum discussions relate to MOT-test potential problems regarding Ducatos with significantly compressed rear bump-stops (‘spring assistors’) and rear springs that an MOT-tester might considered to be weakened.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-failed-rear-leaf-springs/23404/

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-rear-leaf-springs-MOT-issues/23529/

 

I’ve copied from those threads George Collings photo of a Ducato X250 PVC motorhome’s underside showing its bump-stops well compressed and with the rear leaf-spring ‘flattened’ rather than curving upwards at each end (as one might anticipate it should). I don’t know if your (no indentifying details provided!!!!!) PVC’s rear suspension resembles the photo, but I suspect this is pretty normal for Ducato X250 PVC motorhomes with single-leaf rear springs.

 

If your motorhome’s rear end is actually ‘drooping’, or you want to beef up the rear springing, there are several possible approaches. Probably the most common would be to fit a ’semi-air’ system where inflatable airbags replace the bump-stops and the air-pressure in the airbags can be adjusted to deal with the ‘droop’ and to provide a more compliant ride. There are quite a few such systems marketed nowadays (from around £300 upwards) and this recent MHFun thread may be of interest.

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/fitted-semi-air-suspension.171861/

[pepe63xnotuse]

I fitted a pair of the Grayston coil spring assisters (*the additional coil-over-bumpstop type) to a swb 2007 x250 Boxer coachbuilt that we had , and they lifted it clear of the bumpstop-assister rubbers.

 

I think they were around half the cost of "air bellow" assisters?..but obviously, if you fit them and they don't work or you don't like the result, there is no adjustment....so maybe a bit of a gamble...?

 

http://www.springassisters.co.uk/menu.htm

 

(we did have Dunlop air assisters fitted to a later, larger and heavier, van though).

 

Just found a thread in which I'd previously mentioned these Grayston springs and in it I said that they raised it 30mm at the axle-

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Caravans/Towing-Chat/soggy-backside/37709/

(again, this was an '07 swb Boxer C/B - Compass 120, rear lounge)

[Deneb]

As Derek says, it sounds to me like another case of a tester misinterpreting the suspension assisters as bump stops, unless your vehicle has a distinct nose in the air attitude, the rear springs are inverted (lower at either end than at the axle) and their is insufficient clearance between the tyre and the body, which you would likely hear whilst driving and see evidence of as rubbing on the tyre.

 

Fiat state that "It should be noted that, even if the load conditions fall within the allowed limits, the contact between the rear suspension buffers and the leaf springs is to be considered standard".

 

If it helps, the photo shows a twin-leaf spring and assister on a brand new Ducato.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The photo in my posting above apparently is of Andy Stothert’s no-frills Ducato-based PVC. It was taken at a 2006 Malvern outdoor show when the vehicle must have been no more than a few months old. There’s no suggestion that the vehicle was heavily loaded when the photo was taken.

 

Personally, I would have been extremely uncomfortable if I had taken delivery of a new Ducato-based PVC motorhome and found that its rear suspension was as shown in the photo, as the ‘inverted’ curve of the leaf spring and the amount that the ‘buffer’ is compressed strongly suggests that suspension travel will be very limited with the ‘buffer’ playing a major role.

 

The Ducato PVC mentioned in the MHFun link was 2007 vintage (Snowie’s PVC ia 2008-registered) and the original poster said "After 10 years, 60k miles and a recent trip around the Highlands, my bump stops were looking pretty knackered. They've been squished far too much for too long and they are perishing”.

 

If in 2008 Snowie’s vehicle’s rear suspension resembled that of Andy Stothert’s '‘van, it would not be too surprising for its ‘buffers’ to have deteriorated by now. And - as the springs on Andy’s motorhome look ‘wrong’ to me even when it was new - I can easily imagine an MOT-tester considering the lack of curvature being due to wear and tear.

 

[colin]

Snowie's van is a Maxi as ours, for the rear to be heavily compressed it is on it's way out or heavily laden.

Even with our van at 3t when being mot'ed there is a small gap under spring assitors, and the rear has well over 1t capacity over this.

[snowie]

colin - 2018-05-18 1:40 PM

 

Snowie's van is a Maxi as ours, for the rear to be heavily compressed it is on it's way out or heavily laden.

Even with our van at 3t when being mot'ed there is a small gap under spring assitors, and the rear has well over 1t capacity over this.

 

I think not, mines a Long, i.e. 6m.

I’ll have a look and take some pics over the weekend.

Van passed so just comments in discussion when van was returned to me,

Regards, Snowie

[colin]

snowie - 2018-05-18 3:12 PM

 

colin - 2018-05-18 1:40 PM

 

Snowie's van is a Maxi as ours, for the rear to be heavily compressed it is on it's way out or heavily laden.

Even with our van at 3t when being mot'ed there is a small gap under spring assitors, and the rear has well over 1t capacity over this.

 

I think not, mines a Long, i.e. 6m.

I’ll have a look and take some pics over the weekend.

Van passed so just comments in discussion when van was returned to me,

Regards, Snowie

 

 

Have you changed vans? I thought you had a L4 6.36m.

[Derek Uzzell]

Fiat Ducato panel vans are marketed with three different wheelbases - short, medium or long - with long-wheelbase models being available in two different overall lengths (normal and XL).

 

Short-wheelbase Ducatos are not offered with the Maxi specification, but Maxi versions of medium-wheelbase and long-wheelbase models (both overall lengths) are marketed.

 

I believe I recall it once being claimed that all Ducato XL panel vans (6.36m in length) had the Maxi specification, but that’s not correct. It’s possible to have a non-Maxi XL in the same way that it’s possible to have a Maxi Ducato that’s 6.0m or 5.41m in length.

 

Some converters (eg. Globecar) may build on a Ducato Maxi chassis as standard, whereas other converters choose to build Ducato-based PVCs with the same length as (say) Globecar models but using the non-Maxi chassis as standard. Short of checking the diameter of the front brake discs (larger for the Maxi specification) spotting the difference visually isn’t easy.

[colin]

Most Maxi PVC's are usually easy to spot. they have a 'Maxi' badge on rear door.

[Derek Uzzell]

Even easier then for Snowie to confirm whether or not his Ducato is on a Maxi chassis.

[Brian Kirby]

colin - 2018-05-19 9:16 AM

 

Most Maxi PVC's are usually easy to spot. they have a 'Maxi' badge on rear door.

My X290 doesn't, Colin. The only give away is the full front and rear wheel-arch trims.

[colin]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-19 11:17 AM

 

colin - 2018-05-19 9:16 AM

 

Most Maxi PVC's are usually easy to spot. they have a 'Maxi' badge on rear door.

My X290 doesn't, Colin. The only give away is the full front and rear wheel-arch trims.

 

Or maybe the vin plate which clearly states the axle capacity.

[Brian Kirby]

colin - 2018-05-19 3:33 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-19 11:17 AM

 

colin - 2018-05-19 9:16 AM

 

Most Maxi PVC's are usually easy to spot. they have a 'Maxi' badge on rear door.

My X290 doesn't, Colin. The only give away is the full front and rear wheel-arch trims.

 

Or maybe the vin plate which clearly states the axle capacity.

Oh yes, of course. I'd thought you were referring to things that were immediately visible.

[Derek Uzzell]

A visible clue to whether an X250 Boxer/Ducato/Relay has a Maxi chassis is its road-wheel diameter.

 

1: If the wheel-diameter is 15”, the vehicle is NOT built on a Maxi chassis.

 

2: If the vehicle has the standard factory-fitted steel wheels and their diameter is 16”, then it’s near certain that it has a Maxi chassis.

 

3: If the vehicle has 16” (or larger) diameter non-standard alloy wheels, it could have either chassis.

 

Wheels suitable for Boxer/Ducato/Relay with a Maxi chassis have a different stud pattern to those suitable for a non-Maxi chassis and, consequently, wheels cannot be interchanged between the two chassis types. This is explained here

 

https://www.tyremen.co.uk/guide/fiat-ducato-motorhome-wheels#fiat-ducato-motorhome-wheels-1

 

https://www.tyremen.co.uk/guide/which-chassis-do-i-have-light-or-maxi

[snowie]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-05-19 9:32 AM

 

Even easier then for Snowie to confirm whether or not his Ducato is on a Maxi chassis.

 

Well; no badge on door, but pic1 shows it's only 6Metres long (nominal)

Vin Plate; 3500

6000

1 1850

2 2000

Versione 250CGMFC 8X

 

Van was originally a PVC Window contractor's van so I think unlikely to be Maxi

 

I am trying to attach a couple of photos,

The one underneath shows pretty emphatically horizontal springs; and "assistors" look their age! maybe time to have them changed, but do I replace springs while I'm at it? Van sits ok I think.

 

cheers; Snowie

[snowie]

Photos attached; I Hope!

[Guest pelmetman]

Thanks Snowie :D .......

 

I feel so much better about my nearside rear leaf spring and air bag B-) ........

 

 

 

 

[colin]

snowie - 2018-05-20 7:33 PM

 

[Well; no badge on door, but pic1 shows it's only 6Metres long (nominal)

Vin Plate; 3500

6000

1 1850

2 2000

Versione 250CGMFC 8X

 

Van was originally a PVC Window contractor's van so I think unlikely to be Maxi

Snowie

It was my mistake, I was sure you had a 35H L4 Maxi, must have mixed you up with some else, worryingly I can't recall who

:-(

 

 

Anyway from photos, they don't appear too healthy, but really need someone with a 35L to confirm. How much did you have loaded in van when they where taken?

[Brian Kirby]

snowie - 2018-05-20 7:33 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2018-05-19 9:32 AM

 

Even easier then for Snowie to confirm whether or not his Ducato is on a Maxi chassis.

 

Well; no badge on door, but pic1 shows it's only 6Metres long (nominal)

Vin Plate; 3500

6000

1 1850

2 2000

Versione 250CGMFC 8X

 

Van was originally a PVC Window contractor's van so I think unlikely to be Maxi

 

I am trying to attach a couple of photos,

The one underneath shows pretty emphatically horizontal springs; and "assistors" look their age! maybe time to have them changed, but do I replace springs while I'm at it? Van sits ok I think.

 

cheers; Snowie

It's not a maxi. Wrong axle load limits.

[snowie]

pelmetman - 2018-05-20 7:58 PM

 

Thanks Snowie :D .......

 

I feel so much better about my nearside rear leaf spring and air bag B-) ........

 

 

Well I’m fairly relaxed about both of my springs, as they are “flat” and not sagging. I’m a bit less relaxed about the assistors as I’d prefer a bit of air above them. As photographed the reAr axle is probably loaded to approx 1500Kg as none of the payload of approx 540kg less passenger is being used.

Also ; van passed MOT.

Regards, Snowie

[Guest pelmetman]

snowie - 2018-05-20 9:00 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-20 7:58 PM

 

Thanks Snowie :D .......

 

I feel so much better about my nearside rear leaf spring and air bag B-) ........

 

 

Well I’m fairly relaxed about both of my springs, as they are “flat” and not sagging. I’m a bit less relaxed about the assist or, as I’d prefer a bit of air above them. As photographed the reAr axle is probably loaded to approx 1500Kg as none of the payload of approx 540kg less passenger is being used.

Also ; van passed MOT.

Regards, Snowie

 

Have to say mine has a definite lean to port, which I put down to nearly 30 years of climbing in from that side :-| .......

 

So I'm thinking of having them swapped Port to Starboard, makes sense to me anyway :D .........

[Derek Uzzell]

snowie - 2018-05-20 9:00 PM

 

Well I’m fairly relaxed about both of my springs, as they are “flat” and not sagging. I’m a bit less relaxed about the assistors as I’d prefer a bit of air above them. As photographed the reAr axle is probably loaded to approx 1500Kg as none of the payload of approx 540kg less passenger is being used.

Also ; van passed MOT.

Regards, Snowie

 

With your motorhome’s present single-leaf springs, it’s most unlikely that you’d be able to obtain an air-gap between each ‘spring assistor’ and the spring beneath it. If you look at the photos attached to the posting of 26 April 2011 2:21 PM on this 2011 forum thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-failed-rear-leaf-springs/23404/31/

 

you’ll see that, even with twin-leaf springs, the assistor can still touch the spring.

 

You could consider fitting ‘helper’ coil-springs (mentioned by pepe63 above) as shown in attached photo, but this approach lacks the adjustability available with a ’semi-air’ airbag system.

 

It SHOULD be a simpler DIY task to add helper coil-springs than to fit a airbag system and it MIGHT be cheaper - though a simple airbag system for a Ducato can be obtained for under £300 nowadays - but (as pep63 warned) you’d be stuck with a potentially harsh rear-end ride and a tail-up stance.

[snowie]

Thanks for all the opinions and suggestions: I think I’ll check costs out when I pay the garage for the MOT.

Regards Snowie

[Brian Kirby]

Unless you've always found the ride harsh, have you explored the cost of merely replacing the existing spring assistors like for like with new? I'd hope that would be cheapest of all.