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Elddis Autostratus Interior Lights issue


MickM

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Hi, newbie here so apologies in advance for any daft questions !!

 

Weve recently purchased a Peugeot Boxer (Elddis Autostratus EB) and have already enjoyed a couple of overnight stays in it.

 

However there is an issue with the interior lighting and Im hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

 

Basically there are two sets of lights, 4 spots/2 fluorescents in the U Shaped lounge and 4 spots/2 fluorescents in the dinette section, these were all working when we got the motor home.

 

Looking at the wiring diagram these are all seemingly controlled by the control panel on the wall.

 

(There is also a master trip unit in the cupboard)

 

HOWEVER, despite all of the 10A fuses on the panel being ok the lights in the dinette section will now not operate.

 

Its strange that all of the lights in that one area have stopped working at once and my initial reaction was a blown fuse, as mentioned though all of the fuses on the panel are ok and the trip unit hasnt tripped.

 

My question is I guess is there another fusebox somewhere?

 

Ive searched everywhere and removed every trim, lid, cover etc I can find but to no avail.

 

An auto electrician suggested there might be a junction box somewhere up in the head lining unit but that would seem a strange place to put it with no access?

 

Any pointers would be appreciated.

 

Cheers

Mick

 

 

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Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Mick.

 

It could help to know the year of manufacture of your Autostratus EB as motorhome converters regularly alter their models’ specification from one year to the next.

 

For example, the Autostratus wiring diagram in this 2004 Elddis document

 

http://www.elddis.co.uk/documents/Brochures/2004/motorhome-handbook.pdf

 

suggests that there are two 20A fuses protecting the internal lighting circuitry, but this may not be so for your motorhome.

 

It could well be a failed fuse that has stopped all the dinette-area lights from working, but are you sure that there’s not an extra switch somewhere that allows the dinette and lounge sets of lights to be turned on or off individually and might now be in the dinette-lights-off position?

 

(Sadly, motorhome converters can be irrational and unkind when it comes to accessibility. The fault might involve a junction box hidden behind the headlining, or a disconnected cable-connector that will be impracticable to reconnect, but recheck for a failed fuse or an inconspicuous switch before seeking a more complex reason.)

 

 

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Hi Derek, there you go, my first schoolboy error !!

 

Thanks for replying, its appreciated.

 

Its a 1998 model.

 

Yes Im hoping its a really simple explanation but Ive hunted high and low (even been underneath) and have tried tracking the wiring back but everything just disappears.up into the headliner so Im losing hope on finding that simple answer.

 

Ive also poked and prodded every inch of the interior and cant find any other switches.

 

Aside from the individual switches actually attached to the spots/fluorescents themselves the only other light related switches are the 2 rocker switches on the control panel, (both labled lights), one most certainly works as it will switch the U Lounge lights on/off if used, the 2nd rocker though does nothing - both seem to be protected by the same pull out 10A fuse just underneath them. That fuse is OK.

 

I have got a wiring diagram for this model and it confirms that the aforementioned 2 rockers are protected by the same 10A fuse.

 

I am thinking now that it my be the rocker switch itself thats gone faulty but dont really want to start pulling that apart so Im guessing it might need to go into the experts and cost me a bit of money to sort.

 

Mick

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Mick

as you have recently purchased the van Could you ask the previous owners , if there is another switch?

There usually is a switch to turn off the lights independently, well split between front/back of van. maybe you/someone has accidently turned them off.?

 

By the way welcome to forum, perhaps you could put details of van in your profile? It helps when answering your questions, as each model changes through the years

PJay

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So, one bank of lights has failed, the other works, and the fuse is intact? This suggests a failure in the supply, or possibly, as suggested above, the return. Have you tried easing out the rocker switch for that bank of lights to test that the live switch feed is, indeed, live (and also whether you can see any loose connectors - they do sometimes come off). If the feed is connected and is live, try testing the lighting feed from the switch. It that stays dead, the problem is the switch, if it switches OK the problem is after the switch.

 

If the switch tests OK I think I'd next try removing the lights one by one, to check the connections at these, and to check that the feed is still live at the lights. Since all the lights have gone at once, I suspect there will be a single wire from the switch to the lights, with all the lights daisy chained from one to another. That wire may instead go to just one light, that has been used as the junction box to feed the others. There may be a separate junction box, but from a manufacturer's point of view, why complicate the wiring? :-)

 

You'll need to get a multi meter if you don't have one (Halfords or similar). They're quite cheap, and ideal for tracking these kinds of faults. It is just a matter of working you way logically down the wiring, looking for the bit that is dead instead of live. It will be time consuming, so paying someone else to do the checking at commercial rates could get quite expensive. Best left until you're desperate! :-D

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If as Brian says, the lights are "daisy chain" perhaps one bulb has blown? We had fairy lights (years ago) and when one bulb went or was loose, the whole lot would not work?. May be a quicker option to test ? It is an older van.

 

It is probably a very simple thing, as you say they worked before.

 

PJay

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It’s unlikely that Elddis would have chosen to ‘daisy-chain' lights as Xmas tree fairy lights used to be wired, simply because (as used to happen with fairy lights) a failure of any single bulb on the circuit would prevent the rest of the lights from illuminating. It’s quite possible though (as Mick’s auto electrician suggested) for there to be a single cable leading from the control-panel lighting switch to a junction box from which cables fan out to the lights and (as Alanb advises) for there to be a common earthing-point.

 

In 1998 it looks like Elddis may have been fitting ZIG-made control-panels in motorhomes and caravans and I’ve attached a photo of an example said to be from a 1999 Elddis. ZIG panels of that era usually had glass fuses and problems with the fuse-holders themselves were far from unknown. I doubt this is relevant in Mick’s case as both sets of lights are apparently supplied with 12V power via a single 10A fuse (That seems a low amperage fuse for 8 spots and 4 flourescents) and one set of lights still works, but you never know...

 

(Might help if Mick can identify the make of control-panel fitted or provide a photo,)

panel.jpg.b3795a3bfdb52ad671afe42e05a57b5a.jpg

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I am afraid there is a misunderstanding developing over the use of the term "daisy chain".

 

What I understood Brian to mean was that the switched +ve wire leading from the switch would connect to the first light in the group, and then another wire would connect to the same terminal on the same light, and continue to the second light, and so on to the last light in the group. The same method of wiring would also apply to the negative connection, and while common sense would suggest that the same light would be first in that chain, but that is not technically neccessary.

 

With the benefit of hindsight perhaps "looped in" would have been a better term. This method of wiring removes the need for a junction box which would have to have large enough terminals to accommodate at least 4 wires each. Considering that Mick's MH dates from before the ready availability LED bulbs, I think that conductor size would make the junction box method less likely.

 

Unfortunately Pjay misunderstood the term "daisy chain" to mean a series connected string where 20 x 12V bulbs were used in fairy or Christmas tree lights supplied directly from 240v mains.

 

Unless dealing with individual LEDs, the series connected string is not appropriate to the current situation.

 

If Mick wishes to take this matter further he will have to equip himself with either a meter as already suggested, or preferably a simple12V test lamp. He must also find out how to remove or otherwise gain access to the terminals of the switch and perhaps the affected lights. He will also require a connection to the vehicle chassis or battery -ve.

 

Given the above requirements and with any master switches ON, applying the test lamp to the rear of the switch in the OFF position he should be able to light his test lamp from one (the supply) terminal, and with the switch ON, from either terminal.

 

If all is OK at the switch, move to each light in turn and with the switch ON it should be possible to illuminate the test lamp. If there is no supply at the switch it will be necessary to look at the supply to or in the control panel.

 

If all above tests are OK, then as previously suggested it will be necessary to look at the negative connections. This requires 12V +ve supply to the test lamp. This supply could be taken from the previously verified switched terminal at the switch. It will then be protected by the lighting fuse.

 

With the the 12V positive connected to the test lamp check the negative connections at the lights.

 

I am suggesting a test lamp, because digital multimeters can be very sensitive and can give misleading readings.

 

Alan

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Thanks for all the replies, followed Brians advice and bought a multimeter and traced the wiring.

 

Firstly, yes that is the same control panel as in mine (thanks for adding a photo so people can see the panel type) I took it off and checked if switches were live, they seemed to be fine.

 

Swapped the cables from switch to switch but that had no effect, strangely the left still worked on either switch and the right still didnt !

 

So I then took the flouroescent in the kitchen area down and found one of the live cables was not attached as the connector block had rotted, quick swap over and reattached both live wires and hey presto all of the lights - 2 spots/1 roof fluorescent on the left hand side (as you look at the picture) of the kitchen area worked !!

 

However the lights on the right still didnt work and had no current running to them when checked.

 

I then loosely ran a live wire from one of the working spots to the lights on the right hand side and they all work (2 spots/ 1 roof fluorescent) but obviously didnt when I took the temp wire off so that rules out faulty lights/bilbs.

 

I think there is some sort of daisy chain effect going on here as the last light on the left hand side does have one incoming live and one outgoing live headed back up into the headliner.

 

At this point though it got too dark to do anymore so tomorrow its a case of digging about on the right hand side to find where the loose / rotten connection is as Im now sure thats whats causing the problem.

 

Update to follow ......

 

Cheers

Mick

 

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Alanb - 2017-11-23 6:53 PM

 

I am afraid there is a misunderstanding developing over the use of the term "daisy chain".

 

What I understood Brian to mean was that the switched +ve wire leading from the switch would connect to the first light in the group, and then another wire would connect to the same terminal on the same light, and continue to the second light, and so on to the last light in the group. The same method of wiring would also apply to the negative connection, and while common sense would suggest that the same light would be first in that chain, but that is not technically neccessary.......................Alan

Thanks Alan, and that was exactly what I was trying to convey. Shouldn't use non-technical terminology to try to describe technicalities, should I? :-D

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MickM - 2017-11-23 6:54 PM.......................So I then took the flouroescent in the kitchen area down and found one of the live cables was not attached as the connector block had rotted, quick swap over and reattached both live wires and hey presto all of the lights - 2 spots/1 roof fluorescent on the left hand side (as you look at the picture) of the kitchen area worked !!.................................

Cheers

Mick

Good. Well done. So far, so good! I'm a bit uneasy about the idea of the rotted connector block, though. Any indication as to why it had rotted? Rot usually implies water, and water shouldn't be getting to the back of an interior light. Just me being suspicious! :-)

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I initially thought that too Brian but I had a good feel about as far as I could inside and around the opening in the headliner and couldnt feel any dampness.

 

By the way when I say rotted it was more the actual screw itself in the connector block that seemed to be rusted away so much I couldnt get a screwdriver to gain purchase, the rest of the block/screws in the same block were fine so Im fairly comfortable there isnt an issue there.

 

Mick

 

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Brian Kirby - 2017-11-23 7:07 PM

 

Good. Well done. So far, so good! I'm a bit uneasy about the idea of the rotted connector block, though. Any indication as to why it had rotted? Rot usually implies water, and water shouldn't be getting to the back of an interior light. Just me being suspicious! :-)

 

As my father said many years ago "We live in an age of cracked plastics.".

 

 

Alan

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It looks like the control-panel Elddis fitted to Mick’s motorhome is a ZIG Marque 3. This was fairly widely used in UK-built motorhomes in the 1990s and I’ve attached a drawing of the panel’s rear.

 

It needs saying that the drawing was produced by the owner of a non-Elddis conversion and there’s no guarantee that the wiring will match Mick’s panel. Might be useful though, and it does show two lighting circuits (and two lighting switches) fed via one 10A fuse. It also indicates that the 12V power-feed goes from the one lighting switch to the the other, so a failure of that link would disable the 2nd switch.

 

controlpanel.gif.7e17906da079cec88727a0f408fd80ba.gif

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This link is to a multi-page website relating to a 1997 Autohomes “Wanderer” motorhome

 

http://www.ourwanderer.uk/wan1.htm#Page 1

 

and I stole the ZIG control-panel drawing from Page 8.

 

The website provides a lot of information that shows how UK-built motorhomes were generally constructed in the 1990s, indicates the sort of problems that might occur as the vehicles age and how these might be addressed/circumvented, and suggests useful modifications that might be made.

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Sorry for the lack of updates, not being ignorant just been too cold and dark to do anything !!

 

Anyway, sort of got it fixed - warning, youll have to follow this closely to make any sort of sense !

 

After getting the left hand side lights working I turned my attention to the right, following on with the "daisy chain" theory I tried to find where the left hand side wires were routed over to the right hand side, however the last light on the left hand side only had one live going into it so it seems thats where the left hand loop ended.

 

So I then started following the "chain" on the right hand side, the last working spot light on the right hand side in the U Lounge definitely had a live leaving it "towards" the first non working light in the Dining area, however it disappeared behind the cabinets and try as i might I couldnt find where it went.

 

All I know is when it reappeared on the spot lights on the right hand side it was no longer live so it seems somewhere between the 2 points theres a broken connection and I was nowhere near getting it fixed.

 

However just out of curiousity I cut out the "middleman" and ran a wire from the live "out" on the aforementioned working spot direct to the next spot light in the Diner and lo and behold every light in the diner then worked so the "daisy chain" was working again.

 

So what Ive now done is connect up a live from that spot and ran it neatly through some piping (Id installed this myself for the reversing cameras) and connected it up direct to the Dining area light block.

 

So now Ive got everything working (albeit probably not as it was originally supposed to be) I can happily switch every light on if I so wish.

 

Not totally happy though as Im sort of worried about where the broken connection is but when I take it in for its next service Ill explain to the garage whats what and get them to have a look as Ive at least isolated the area where the problem seems to be.

 

Thanks for all the replies, advice and input, its appreciated and has certainly helped.

 

Cheers

Mick

 

 

 

 

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Swapping the lighting-circuit cables between the two lighting switches on the control-panel showed that both switches were in working order and that the fault lies with the circuit that provides power to the lights in the motorhome’s dinette area.

 

The drawing of a ZIG Marque III control panel in my posting of 24 November 2017 8:29 AM suggests (as one might logically expect) that each lighting switch will control a separate circuit and that each of those circuits will power a separate set of lights.

 

As I understand it, Mick has 'cross-connected' one circuit to the other so that all the lights are now powered via just one of the control-panel’s lighting switches - which is OK unless he wants to control the U-lounge and dinette sets of lights separately.

 

As jury-rigging a live feed from a working spot-light to the dinette-area light block has caused the lights in the dinette-area to work again, running a live feed from the other lighting-switch on the control-panel to the dinette-area light block should also work and permit the two sets of lights to be operated independently. This, of course, is an easy thing to say but will quite likely not be an easy thing to do - or at least not an easy thing to do tidily if there’s no handy conduit for the new switch-to-dinette-area-light-block cable.

 

 

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That is the same conclusion as I've drawn from Mick's post. If we're both right I've got a niggle.

 

Both switches were originally fed via a single 10A fuse. From Mick's description it seems the total load on that fuse hasn't been changed, so no concerns on that score. However, each switch fed approximately half the lights, whereas one switch now seems to feed them all.

 

Assuming the switch itself is up to the task of switching the full load rather than, as installed, only half, the new arrangement now means that all of the lighting load is being carried on a single wire that previously only carried half.

 

Is that wire adequate for the load now placed on it? If it isn't, it will be liable to run hot and, in the confines of (I assume) the motorhome roof, may be unable to dissipate that heat. This should be checked without delay, because hot wires can cause fires, and a fire within the roof structure has the potential to do serious damage.

 

Not scaremongering, and not deriding Mick's ingenuity in solving his problem but, if it's nominally a 5A cable that is now taking 10A, it spells trouble.

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I agree...

 

As I said earlier I found it surprising that 8 spot-lights and 4 flourescent lights were being fed power through a single 10A fuse.

 

I’m trying to remember what lights were fitted to my 1996-built Herald Templar motorhome. I know there were spot-lights and flourescents and that the spot-lights originally had tradiitional incandescent bulbs of the type shown here

 

https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bulb-12v-15w-15s/123

 

but I don’t recall their wattage. I know I added a couple more spot-lights and I believe I swapped the original bulbs for halogen equivalents.

 

If it’s very difficult to restore the original arrangement that used one control-panel switch per each of the two sets of lights, if it’s practicable (and a previous owner has not already done it) Mick might consider replacing the spot-light bulbs with LED equivalents to reduce the load on the cabling (and on the leisure battery).

 

 

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Brian, yes I must admit I was initially a bit worried on that score and thought very carefully about installing this "shortcut" for that very reason, however as the final spot in the Lounge seemed to already feed the spots in the right hand side of the Dinette I havent increased the loading over and above what it already was, i.e, they were already in the loop.

 

Ive come to that conclusion as follows .... the roof light on the left hand side of the van In the Dinette (which had the loose connection which when reconnected fixed the rest of that sides lights) seems to be the 1st in the left hand side "daisy chain", it had a live in and a live out - to the 1st Spot, the 1st Spot then had a live in (from roof light) and a live out to the 2nd spot. This 2nd Spot only had the one live in (from Spot 1) and none out so must have been the end of the chain.

 

So that seems to be the extent of the "chain" for those sequence of lights.

 

The remaining wiring for the rest of the lights on the van traced as follows;

 

Spot 1 Left Lounge - 1 live in 1 out to;

Roof 1 Left Lounge - 1 live in 1 out to;

Spot 2 Left Lounge - 1 live in 1 out to;

Spot 3 Right Lounge - 1 live in 1 out to;

Roof 2 Right Lounge - 1 live in 1 out to;

Spot 4 Right Lounge - 1 live in 1 out to - Dinette

 

Spot 4 in theory should have been the end of the chain but for some strange reason it wasnt, as above Spot 4 had a live out heading towards the Dinette - presumably to Spot 5 Right Dinette, it was this wire I circumvented and fed into Spot 5 which in turn livened up Roof Dinette / Spot 6 Dinette so Ive basically just recreated the original chain.

 

Further evidence that this is the correct sequence of the chain was the fact that Spot 6 has a live out which goes to the light in the bulkhead which is where the chain ends.

 

Its a very strange wiring sequence and I cant for the life of me understand why it was set up that way, for a start the switches designed for controlling each area wouldnt do that, one only controls 3 lights (left hand side Dinette) while the other controls the rest.

 

Anyway, I will be keeping a very close eye on it to be on the safe side and as its due in for a service before long Ill go over it in detail with the garage.

 

I am very interested in these LED upgrades that Derek mentions, the bulbs he linked to are indeed the ones in mine so any links to the LED's would be appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

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I’m guessing that your spot-lights currently have the type of 10W bulbs shown here

 

https://www.caravanaccessoryshop.co.uk/product/bulb-12v-10w-15mm/124

 

as, if the wattage were any higher, the 10A fuse would be inadequate. (You’d be wise to confirm the actual amperage of your control-panel’s fuses as, although it may say “10A” on the panel, that won’t prove the fuses are 10A. There’s no knowing what previous owners have got up to since your motorhome was built in 1998!)

 

Assuming that the base of your spot-light bulbs are BA15S, there will be plenty of choice for replacing them with LED bulbs.

 

Aten Lighting has a good reputation

 

https://www.atenlighting.co.uk/caravan-motorhome-lighting/led-bayonet-lamps

 

https://www.atenlighting.co.uk/caravan-motorhome-lighting/led-bayonet-lamps/15mm-cap-ba15s

 

but which LED bulb would be most appropriate will depend on the design of your spot-lights and how much light you want the replacement bulbs to produce. Some of the LED bulbs radiate light to the side as well as forwards; others only send the light forwards.

 

My experience has been that, generally, the replacement LED bulb should be equivalent to a bulb with a higher wattage than the bulb that’s being replaced, particularly where spot-lights are involved. LED bulbs are available as “warm white” or “cool white”, and I suggest you opt for “warm white” for a motorhome’s living-space.

 

There are alternative specialist suppliers (for example)

 

https://bedazzledledlighting.co.uk/product-category/led-bulbs/ba15s/

 

I don’t think you will find a super-duper-cheap BA15S LED bulb that will be suitable for your spot-lights, but you can always try...

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