Emergency DIY Insulation of external water tank

[jazzivano]

Hiya, newbie vanner and a naive, second trip probably next week 3 days in north Norfolk. I have Ace (Swift) Milano '59 plate. External fresh and waste water. Site we going to have all facilities, but should I lag tanks and pipes before I go, just in case of Jack Frost.

 

Also, can I just check, I can use heating without needing boiler, just in case too cold for water..

[Stewart Hendry]

Hi to you both. I think your first port of call is the hand book regarding the heating system. On our previous vans I could use the heating without having all the pipes to the taps primed with water as the heating system was sealed.

Can’t help regarding the insulation of the tanks but would suggest you leave the waste drain tap open whilst on site and put a bucket underneath the tap to catch the waste. This was a suggestion to me when we started motorhoming.

Hope this Is of some help.

[Tracker]

I don't have any experience of tank insulation but it may well be that unless you have some kind of method of introducing enough warmth to the tank or it's contents to prevent temperature drop when it is below freezing, insulation will not help a lot?

 

[PJay]

Hi and welcome to forum.

We have a Swift, 06 plate, Sundance different model to yours .

If you use gas heater, that does not need water. I would have thought water in tanks is unlikely to freeze in Norfolk , especially if you keep heating on at night, but low. If on EHU, then take a small electric fan heater., or use the van on EHU. We find that keeps warm. No need to fill the water tank full up, just half maybe? You may need water for the toilet, if you want to use at night?? As suggested keep the grey water tap open with a bucket under . Not sure about lagging, probably needs to be done professionally , for safety? And do you really want to get under the van??

 

Enjoy your week end away. Take think duvets/sleeping bags

PJay

[jazzivano]

Thanks for responses . I’ve been wondering whether to create a casing with 20mm thermal cladding/insulation boards and gaffa tape. Plenty of access under the van and through the floor too. Will ponder the next two days before I get the van on Sunday morning and perhaps have-a-go.

[jazzivano]

I was just wondering, would a tarpaulin or perhaps tent carpet under the van reduce the impact of frost?

[Tracker]

Anyone who thinks a tank of water won't freeze in Norfolk has not lived there in winter!

 

Wind chill can be a factor so a nice skirt all around the van should help, and reduce draughts and cold air movement!

[Brock]

When we go away for a few days in the winter on full sites, we don't bother with the fresh water system. We leave the waste tap open with a bucket to catch the slops. We use a water container for fresh water - five litres a day is enough - which we keep in the van. Its a bit like camping in a shepherd's tin hut or should it be glamping now? We even managed a week away in the summer without onboard water when our water pump failed. We use the site facilities.

 

Ensure you have at least a full 6kg of propane and a spanner to change an empty cylinder, plenty of warm clothing including socks, and enough bedding to keep you warm.

[Tracker]

Hot water bottles are wonderful too - heating the kettle warms the van and the hwb warms yer feet - luvly jubbly!

[jazzivano]

Thanks for responses folks.

 

So reckon I need to wait, see weather forecast Tuesday and play-it-by-ear as to whether or not, to fill up with water. I will ensure hot water bottles duvets long-johns thick socks gloves and wooly hat, and hip flask (full) are packed.

 

 

So how about stabilisers for Motorhome, (not on rear wheels). Our habitation door is just behind rear axle so we have about 6 ft of unsupported overhang.(not my belly which means we rock about everyone one enters or leaves the vehicle. Are stabilisers availab like for Caravans please, if anyone knows?

[Derek Uzzell]

Insulating ‘wrap’ is available for motorhome external water tanks

 

http://leisurelines.net/bxtx-water-tank-insulating-wrap-1200mm--linear-mtr-2383-p.asp

 

as are various types of tank heater (examples here)

 

https://www.tankblanket.co.uk/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Caravan-12V-30W-Fresh-Waste-Water-Tank-40L-Heater-Winter-Frost-Protection-25C-/132002552290

 

and some motorhomes have their external tank(s) enclosed in an insulating ‘box’ through which warmed air can be ducted.

 

But any of these options need careful thought before getting out the DIY toolbox.

 

(I can’t see putting a tarpaulin/carpeting underneath your motorhome providing anti-frost protection.)

 

This blog may of interest

 

https://www.lifesure.co.uk/blog/2013/09/using-your-caravan-or-motorhome-in-cold-weather/

 

Not sure what your "So how about stabilisers for Motorhome, (not on rear wheels) “ query means, but ‘caravan type’ rear steadies are marketed that are potentially suitable for motorhomes (example here)

 

http://www.olearymotorhomes.co.uk/motorhome-corner-steadies-long-model-1307-p.asp

 

and there has been plenty of on-line discussion about them over the years

 

https://tinyurl.com/yckjp65g

 

If rear steadies were originally a factory-option for your Ace Milano, retro-fitting them may be relatively straightforward. If they were not an option, retro-fitting them so that they are easily accessible (You really don’t want to be crawling under your motorhome to lower/raise them) may prove challenging.

 

Automated systems involving levelling ‘legs’ are available

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/motorhome-hydraulic-levelling

 

but it would be an expensive approach if all you want is improved stability when parked.

 

 

[John52]

jazzivano - 2017-12-07 9:07 PM

 

Thanks for responses . I’ve been wondering whether to create a casing with 20mm thermal cladding/insulation boards and gaffa tape. Plenty of access under the van and through the floor too. Will ponder the next two days before I get the van on Sunday morning and perhaps have-a-go.

 

I used this Thermoliner to line my self-build: http://www.harrisonstrimsupplies.co.uk/8m-x1m-foil-foam-van-insulation-with-pre-glued-soundproofing-thermoliner-simple-23174-p.asp

Its very good. I've never used it to cover an underfloor tank but can't see why not. Glue is very strong (especially on plastic), foam does not absorb water, and foil is strong. Seems a better bet than flat boards and gaffa tape. Easier to cut and fit too.

[Brian Kirby]

Insulation merely slows the rate at which heat is lost. If the air outside the van is cold enough, for long enough, the water in an external, underslung, fresh water tank will freeze. That is why it is fairly common to add a low output tank heater to the water tank, as well as insulating it.

 

You have what is, in effect, a three season van. If you want one that is "winterised" for winter use you really need one with a internally mounted fresh water tank, and for extreme conditions, an internally mounted waste tank as well.

 

Whether the water in the tank will actually freeze will depend on the rate of heat exchange between the tank water and the external air, the starting temperature of the water, the temperature of the external air, and the rate of air movement. These are largely unknowns. However, do not assume that the process will commence only when you arrive on site. While travelling to site your water tank will be exposed to a blast of cold air due to your road speed. Probably much more severe than any local wind while sited. Using the heating in the van will make not one jot of difference to the temperatures to which the tank is exposed.

 

If you want to up-grade your van to protect it from freezing do remember that any pipes, including drain pipes, that are run beneath the van floor, are far more vulnerable to freezing that the tank itself, as the mass of water that has to be chilled is much smaller, so will cool more quickly. If you neglect the exposed pipes you risk having a tank of unfrozen water you can't use, either because the pipes from it are frozen, or because the drains from kitchen sink, washbasin, or shower are frozen, so they can't be drained.

 

Your cheapest bet will be to carry water in containers you keep inside the van, and, as suggested above, to keep the drain tap on the waste tank open and place a bucket or similar under it, remembering to empty the bucket frequently.

 

If you really want to winterise your van I think I'd get hold of someone like CAK Tanks to see what kits they can offer. You will need to trace heat all externally exposed water pipes before insulating them, and you will need a tank heater for at least the fresh water tank as well as insulation. All insulation must be fully waterproof, so that it cannot become saturated by, for example, water from wet roads. Once saturated, insulation ceases to perform. The various heaters will be electrically operated, generally at 12V so that they can be operated while driving, so you will also need to be confident that your alternator/12V system generally has adequate capacity for the additional loads.

 

Otherwise, if you merely insulate the pipes plus tank, you will gain some respite from freezing but will have to accept the risk that eventually, if temperatures and time are sufficient, it will, at some point, freeze - probably pipes first.

 

[jazzivano]

Thanks very much for your extensive reply. You’ve been most helpful, as others have too.

 

I’m thinking that a construction of a box is too excessive re weight so perhaps just wrapping a few layers of thermal insulation roll around the tank several times and sealing it with heavy-duty gaffa, will delay the onset of a frost but perhaps delay the thaw of a seriously heavy frost.

 

In terms of levelling I like your link, thanks. This will be our first task after Xmas methinks.

 

Best wishes

[John52]

jazzivano - 2017-12-11 12:31 PM

sealing it with heavy-duty gaffa,

With thermoliner I find aluminium foil tape (as used for industrial pipe wrapping) works better than gaffa.

[Tracker]

jazzivano - 2017-12-11 12:31 PM

 

In terms of levelling I like your link, thanks. This will be our first task after Xmas methinks.

 

 

In over 50 years of Motorhoming we never once found the need for expensive levelling or stability kit, and we've experienced more than a few very windy nights (not always dietary!), but I appreciate that we all have different tolerances for level and rocking!

At one time we did carry three leveling ramps but even then the third was so rarely needed that that dropped to two!

I have seen a van held steady, not lifted, just steadied, with a single hydraulic jack on a block of wood used against a length of stout timber across the back of the underside of the van and it seemed to work OK and was cheap to install and no more hassle to fit than winding legs!

[pepe63xnotuse]

jazzivano - 2017-12-11 12:31 PM

 

In terms of levelling I like your link, thanks. This will be our first task after Xmas methinks.

 

Best wishes

 

Hi

For steadying, rather than "levelling", we used a pair of unbranded galv' steel versions of this type of jack with a previous (wobbly long tail-ended) van.

I think ours were less than a tenner each from a local caravan/MH dealer/spares outlet?

Of cause, you need somewhere they can "jack" against" (and somewhere to store them)

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAMMA-ALUMINIUM-ALU-JACKS-PK-OF-4-TOURER-OR-STATIC-CARAVAN-STEADY-JACK/202117863448?hash=item2f0f29d818:g:XUgAAOSwSrNaEA3F

[Tracker]

I had something more like this in mind, albeit with a bit of simple diy to attach it to a block big enough to raise it to within range and spread the load on the ground.

It's not taking any real weight, just a slight lift on the suspension to reduce swaying.

A simple reminder attached to the steering wheel to stop one driving off whilst steadied is handy too!

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MultiWare-Bottle-Heavy-Lifting-Vehicles/dp/B01N237NTQ/ref=sr_1_5?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1513080596&sr=1-5&keywords=hydraulic+bottle+jack

[rogher]

jazzivano - 2017-12-07 1:25 PM

 

Hiya, newbie vanner and a naive, second trip probably next week 3 days in north Norfolk. I have Ace (Swift) Milano '59 plate. External fresh and waste water. Site we going to have all facilities, but should I lag tanks and pipes before I go, just in case of Jack Frost.

 

Also, can I just check, I can use heating without needing boiler, just in case too cold for water..

 

I'd lag any exposed pipes, if there are any. These will be the first to freeze because of there high surface area/low water content. I'd not bother with the tank but, if I did, would consider polyurathane from - the stuff builders use to fill holes with. A skirt all the way around the outside would be my preferred solution.

Look under vans at shows to see the kind of steady/jack used to stabilise vans. They stop the rocking. You only need a couple.

[John52]

Tracker - 2017-12-12 11:03 AM

 

never once found the need for expensive levelling

I have.

I find a level bed so important that no expense is spared.

So I went to Poundland.

Bought 4 ratchet straps, one for each corner of the bed to make it level :-D

[bolero boy]

i think if i really wanted to make this van more 'winterised' i would investigate whether i could put a fresh water tank inboard somewhere, remove the external one and just alter the filling and cold supply pipework.