arthur49 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 We're considering trading in van for 2018 Autotrail V-line which I am assured is Euro 6. In light of previous threads on here on 'smart alternators' I asked the question of dealer "Does this van have a smart alternator / regenerative braking" They did not know the answer and appeared unaware of smart alternators, stating they had not received any complaints of poor charging and/or knackered hab batteries. The V-line we looked at (635SE) has a Sargent EC155 power unit/charger. I understand the EC155 has the charging split charge relay inside the box, and I could see no sign of alternative charging eg B2B. In the link below Charles Sterling is emphatic that Euro 6 is bad for charging in a motorhome! Now I know he will want to sell as many of his products as he can, but it does raise a valid concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Arthur, Why not give Sargent Electrical a call and ask them how the system performs with particular reference to the smart alternator. https://sargentltd.co.uk/contact Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 Thank you Keith. Will do. I should also have said I'm contacting Autotrail direct to query. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 According to Fiat "intelligent alternators" (their phraseology) are only fitted to Ducatos equipped with start & stop systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 So far we have only come across the Mercedes chassis as using intelligent Alternators. The Ford Transit van (as in commercial) can have an intelligent Alternator, but the 'Intelligence' is de-activated when a Motorhome is specified in the order by the Converter/Builder. We have seen a Transit van that was converted to a Camper by a small scale converter that still had the Intelligent Alternator 'active'. However I wouldn't be surprised if things change in 2018. I would be more concerned about the fitment of an EC155 as it has very low capability charging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 The Euro 6 motors fitted to current-model Ducatos are described on Page 16-17 of this Fiat publicaton https://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/CMSEN/Pdf/Ducato_Goods_Transport_Brochure_2016.pdf On Page 17 the following statement is made about the 150 ECOJET powerplant "ECOJET A new EcoJet version of Ducato, which is setting the standard in emissions and fuel economy, is now available too. This version is equipped with a high-tech package including Start&Stop, Smart Alternator, electro-hydraulic power steering and an ECO function, which you can switch on at the touch of a button on the dashboard. The ECO function varies the power and torque delivery and helps make substantial fuel savings.” The implication, then, is that any Euro 6 Ducato X290 that is not fitted with the 150 ECOJET motor will not have a smart alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 arthur49 - 2018-01-14 9:25 AM ....In the link below Charles Sterling is emphatic that Euro 6 is bad for charging in a motorhome! Now I know he will want to sell as many of his products as he can, but it does raise a valid concern?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3npZQ7JGp0A All he seems to be saying is that because the alternator may sometimes deliver 15.5 volts, if you have an AGM leisure battery which is connected via a simple relay (i.e. a direct electrical connection) then if (big if) the cabling allows this 15.5 volts to reach the AGM battery, overcharging and damage could occur if this situation is sustained for long enough. Whether 15.5 volts will actually reach the leisure battery in this scenario is another matter. And if the leisure battery is a Bosch/Varta Powerframe type (capable of accepting rapid charging) rather than an AGM, this higher charge voltage for finite periods would not be a problem anyway, would it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 A recent Fiat Forum discussion https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/455587-smart-alternator.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 StuartO - 2018-01-14 8:34 AMarthur49 - 2018-01-14 9:25 AM ....In the link below Charles Sterling is emphatic that Euro 6 is bad for charging in a motorhome! Now I know he will want to sell as many of his products as he can, but it does raise a valid concern?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3npZQ7JGp0A All he seems to be saying is that because the alternator may sometimes deliver 15.5 volts, if you have an AGM leisure battery which is connected via a simple relay (i.e. a direct electrical connection) then if (big if) the cabling allows this 15.5 volts to reach the AGM battery, overcharging and damage could occur if this situation is sustained for long enough. Whether 15.5 volts will actually reach the leisure battery in this scenario is another matter. And if the leisure battery is a Bosch/Varta Powerframe type (capable of accepting rapid charging) rather than an AGM, this higher charge voltage for finite periods would not be a problem anyway, would it?He goes beyond that Stuart. When not under regenerative braking - most of the time - the potential is there for the leisure batteries to drain into the starter battery (fixable by fitting a diode so current can only flow towards the hab batteries?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-14 8:43 AM A recent Fiat Forum discussion https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/455587-smart-alternator.html Thank you Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Most converters specify the Ducato without the smart alternator, don't get the option with Mercs. It's not a problem anyway the converter just fits a box of tricks to overcome the problem, well the German manufacturers do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJJ Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 On my previous 2017 Pilote with 150BHP MultiJet the Fiat CoC actually stated that an ordinary alternator was fitted as an option to a Smart Alternator. Maybe worth taking a look at the CoC for the AutoTrail. The issue of a smart alternator on the Mercedes chassis is somewhat vexing; as on AutoSleeper Forum we have been trying to ascertain who has got that feature and who not. It may be that as early as 2014 there were smart alternators fitted which are controlled by the ECU, but only on later (maybe 2017 models) did they get the regen braking added??? What I have been able to ascertain on mine is that, with the Mercedes option of an AGM vehicle battery, it charges that battery, from the alternator, at 14.6-14.7V (measured on the battery terminals) during normal charging. However, the voltage through the Sargent system reaching the leisure battery reduces by some 0.9V. That means that even if regen braking activated and supplied approx. 15V (Mercedes) only about 14.1-14.2 will reach the leisure battery and not a chance of damaging that battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 There are currently twp types of Intelligent Alternator to consider. The first is that used by Ford since, about 2007, on the Transit commercial van (and Mondeo, Focus, Ka, etc) and charges at a higher than ideal voltage than that used for regenerative braking which tends to adopt a lower than ideal voltage most of the time. On the Ford system, not appropriate to most Motorhomes as when Ford are asked to supply a vehicle for use as a Motorhome, the 'Intelligence was turned off in the ECU Only those commercial vans bought second hand and used for Camper will have this intelligence still 'active' and up to 16 volt charging. Stirling make a big issue of this in their sales brochure, when it is not actually relevant. They are selling a 'remedial device' that isn't actually necessary. We are not big Stirling fans.. The second type of intelligent Alternator, as used by Mercedes Commercials/Motorhomes, and now the new Fiat eco150 that Derek notes above, generally try and run with a lower Alternator output voltage than ideal. It's peak voltage up to 14.7v but it may try and run with a charging voltage as low as 13v when it can, to save fuel. Obviously this may result in a very slow recharge of a low Habitation battery. A Euro 6 Fiat we examined at the beginning of January, didn't have an intelligent Alternator and we suspect they will only be offered as 2018 progresses.. Probably not hitting the road until the middle/end of 2018?. The example above of the Autsleeper dropping 0.9v (and sometimes even more than this) between the Alternator voltage and that getting to the Habitation battery is usual. It has been happening years before Stop/Start/Regenerative Braking. This is almost always down to poorly designed/installed electrical systems on most British built vehicles compared to those from the Continent. Hence my comment above that Arther should be more concerned about the fitment of a Sargent EC155 that almost always has wafer thin (high voltage drop) wiring and poor quality charging systems. Regardless of whether an intelligent Alternator is fitted or not, most British built vehicles will benefit from an "Intelligent Alternator Charging Solution". Even better, as it bypasses direct Alternator charging and improves Fridge operation, would be to look at the Solution recently devised by Weldted with his Inverter mains charger solution. See here for more details : http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Technical-Alternator-or-Inverter-charging-/48365/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I too like Weldted's solution, especially given his use of the van, but it may be a bit more complex than many people need? My electrical expertise is very limited but would a far more simple solution be the use of much heavier cables from engine battery to leisure battery(ies), via a suitably heavy duty relay and possibly disable the existing alternator input from the Sargant control box? I've always been a great believer in keeping things as simple as possible because problems are easier to resolve that way and it costs less! Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Some years ago we had a BMW allegedly with stop start but it never worked. When I spoke to the dealer's techy guy he told me it was my fault for not doing enough miles! I was then told that the alternator was programmed to only put enough back in the battery to start the car to cut down on emmisions and improve mpg? I was also advised that only when the battery was fully charged, never unless you do a lot of long runs, would the stop start activate. To say the least I was cynical, and when we switched to a Japanese car later that year everything works as it says, and has done so ever since. To say that I would have little faith in any politically motivated blurb issued by the likes of Fiat is an understatement as I would much rather have fully charged batteries than worry about emmisions and mpg! Perhaps I am wrong but the cynic in me has severe doubts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-14 12:46 PM Stirling make a big issue of this in their sales brochure, when it is not actually relevant. They are selling a 'remedial device' that isn't actually necessary. We are not big Stirling fans.. Guys, Sorry to be pedantic but to clarify a spelling error in several posts, and in case anyone is trying to track down this supplier, Sterling Power Products is actually spelt with an 'e' and not an 'i'. https://sterling-power.com/ Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Tracker, I agree that simple solutions are most definitely the best. But if you bypass a Sargent EC 325, a Nordelettronica, Arsilicii, Schaudt EBL 100, etc in such a way as you suggest, you will lose some functionality at the Power Controller/charger or the display or both. Just as you will if you fit a B2B following the manufacturer's Instructions. Weldted's solution uses all existing, standard functionality, just picks up the 230v from an alternative source. Many people install Inverters for light duty operations, like running a 230v Sky box. Others install B2b's. Installing a 1,000watt Inverter like Weldted's setup, running off the Starter battery, does away with the need for the B2B and additionally makes running the Fridge on the move a safer and more efficient process. Plus, obviously, gives you the ability to use light duty 230v appliances. Weldted's solution requires the fitment of just a small Inverter. That involves two wires to the Starter Battery and the 230v output cable goes to a female 16A plug next to where the EHU enters the vehicle. You then cut ithe existing EHU cable and put a male plug on the end of the wire going to the RCD. On the end of the cable from the EHU external inlet you put a Blue 16a female socket. Obviously to do this you need access to the EHU 'inlet to RCD' cable, but that is usually accessible near the RCD. The Male 16a cable to the RCD can then only be connected to either the Female socket from the Inverter or the EHU inlet 16a female socket, but not both. If the Inverter output is being used, i.e. the RCD male is plugged into the 'Inverter female' then even if someone puts a EHU cable into the side of the van in error, it will just stop at the 'unused' female EHU 16a socket. It probably would take no more time to install than upgrading all the 12v cabling, plus it doesn't cause any complications bypassing existing electronics. The only thing to watch is that the Inverter should be small and ONLY connected to the Starter battery. I think it is worth it just to remove the risk of fire from running on 12v, the better charging on the move is just a bonus. Keith, Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 They find out that running some 250 miles the resident batt was lower in volts than at start. They produce strong volt changes. we have now load and boot boosters to cope whit brake recovery, short load fases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Rather than having to discuss these problems of increasingly sophisticated technology on the Forums, do you not all think that the manufacturers should provide clear (and hopefully simple) solutions? Surely the likes of FIAT, Peugeot etc should be capable of providing a charging system which meets the end-users requirements? Or at least offering a choice of charging system to the convertors? If the base vehicle makes find it all too difficult and complex, then the likes of Auto Sleeper etc should be sorting these issues out, not us. What are we paying for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Ha Ha Michael, that made me smile! Manufacturers and converters taking the trouble to make their products fit for purpose - you cannot be serious! They all talk of freeedom when what they really mean is as free as the ehu lead will allow you to be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Spospe, The issue is not the base vehicle manufacturers problem but the Converters. The converters/Motorhome builders are the ones who choose which Electronics manufacturers charging solution they fit. All Motorhome manufacturers have the tools and the electronics to fix the issues. Some Motorhome manufacturers are catching up and specifying more powerful sophisticated solutions, you will see evidence of this from the Italian built Motorhomes. There are Rolls Royce charging solutions and Trabant solutions. Both are designed to fit the Invoice that the Motorhome manufacturer wants to pay. In some cases the solutions are very good, in others very poor, but all built to fit exactly what the Motorhome manufacturer has specified. Up to 15 years ago when most Motorhomes had a single battery and few 'Free Camped' for long, the difference between them was not so noticeable. But now the usual battery fitment is 2 x 90Ah placing a much bigger load on the charging systems, as a result those not so efficient stand out more. The Sargent EC155 usually has a slow charging 13.8v, single stage, low current mains charger. Units that were typical in the 1980's. It has been long publicised that cable thickness in some vehicles is woefully inadequate for both Alternator charging and Fridge 12v operation. A small example of poorly thought out design :- German vans take their 'Alternator' Fridge 12v feed directly from the Starter battery. Many British vans take their Fridge feed from the Habitation battery, which gets charged up by the Alternator/Starter battery so it's effectively the same, right? But it's not. Placing a 17amp load directly on the Habitation battery drops it's voltage by up to a volt. That means the charge from the Alternator is up to a volt less, making a huge difference on how fast a habitation battery will charge on the move. Having fat cables from the Alternator to the Starter battery and picking up the Fridge 12v from that point doesn't drop the voltage hardly at all, so the Habitation battery gets 14.4v Alternator charge, not 13.4v charge. It also effects Fridge efficiency. More imports, and the Forums, have highlighted the differences between the approach/solutions so deficient ones become more apparent. Some are good, but some are not. Some power off the habitation Power controller Display so you can't see how woeful the Alternator charge is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 Allan As I have oft said I respect your opinion and expertise but my wife and I choose a motorhome based on what is important to us, not solely on the electrics/electronics, though that is an aspect I want to fully understand before purchase, which is why I asked the original question. We want a British built panel van conversion with a rear lounge at what we consider to be value for money. (Other buyers will have a different preference/judgement and thats fine.) Our current van has an EC155 and, understanding its limitations four years ago, I spent about £300 on a Sterling B2B and, understanding its limitations, I installed a remote control so I could switch off charging whilst driving. The van with EC155, Sterling B2B and 2 x cheapo Eurocarparts batteries will be 4 years old on 3 April. When the batteries were professionally drop-tested last year they were fine and I think they are still fit for purpose based on off - EHU use in December. So our experience of our present set up is a positive one. Purchasing a motorhome involves compromise. We don't believe there is such a thing as the perfect motorhome. We're happy for part of that compromise to be an EC155. We're happy to spend £300/£500 to reduce the impact of that 'compromise'. Of course, thanks to Veletron (Nigel) I can reduce that spend to £50 on the next van by fitting a voltage sensitive relay to reduce the impact of that 'compromise' subject to our next motorhome not having a 'smart alternator'!!! As with you, I have no axe to grind for/against Charles Sterling though my experience of the latter's B2B is, as a user for 4 years, a first class one. Sorry Allan, your contributions are appreciated and I enjoy reading (most) of them, but you really seem to have an axe to grind against Sterling and Sargent, and, as a non-expert and user I appreciate their opinion as well. Allan, accept its not an ideal world? B-) B-) B-) B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-01-14 8:48 PM Spospe, The issue is not the base vehicle manufacturers problem but the Converters. The converters/Motorhome builders are the ones who choose which Electronics manufacturers charging solution they fit... I agree. The ‘smart alternator’ issue has been discussed here in the past and there's a recent (unfocused) thread on the ASOF http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t20935-smart-alternator-not-charge-leisure-battery?highlight=smart+alternator New-model European motorhomes will all have Euro 6 motors and Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen, Ford, Mercedes, Renault, Volkswagen and Iveco are all likely to include a ‘smart alternator’ in the standard specification of vehicles that a motorhome converter might use. It stands to reason that, if a base-vehicle is to have an auxiliary battery (eg. if it is destined to become an ambulance or motorhome) then its electrical system must be suitable for properly charging that auxiliary battey, and it’s up to the company that will carry out the ambulance/motorhome conversion to ensure that this happens. If a converter realises that a base-vehicle (Let’s say a Euro 6 Mercedes Sprinter) has a standard specification that will result in the completed motorhome’s leisure-battery being inadequately charged, the choices are to not build on a Sprinter, demand a different specification from Mercedes, or include within the conversion process appropriate modifications that overcome the original charging limitations. Allan mentioned above a small-volume converter building on a Transit that had an active ’smart-charging’ system and there’s a company that offers a product to deal with that scenario http://www.intellitecmv.com/assets/pdf/bm4s.pdf But the UK Big Boys like Auto-Trall, Auto-Sleepers, Elddis and Swift ought to be aware of the potential problems with ‘smart charging’ and ought to address them. There should not be a situation where UK motorcaravanners should be asking on forums (or interrogating motorhome dealers) “Does this or that motorhome have ‘smart charging’?”, nor should there be a need for a motorhome buyer to play about with a new motorhome’s electrical system to circumvent inadequate leisure-battery charging that has been ignored by the motorhome converter. I’m well aware that UK motorcaravanners may choose to ‘tweak’ a new motorhome’s standard electrical specification to improve it, but that’s very different from taking delivery of a new motorhome and then being compelled to have it modified because its charging system is recognised as being flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 I've just had an e mail from Autotrail. Smart alternators are not fitted to the Euro 6 Ducatos they convert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I'm unsure how the UK Big Boys listed by Derek organise their leisure battery charging, but Bailey (surely the Biggest UK Boy of all in terms of unit sales?) power the entire hab. area via the converter interface fusebox behind the driver seat. All power for leisure battery charging, fridge and other systems such as Alde heating are connected at the D+ terminal which is fused at 5 amps. There are no other connections forward to the cab and its electrics. The presence or otherwise of a smart alternator is therefore somewhat irrelevant in this case as there is never sufficient current available to charge the commonly-fitted 200Ah battery bank and alternative arrangements are a must for those of us who don't move from one EHU point to another. A Sterling B2B has provided that solution for me and has worked admirably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 That seems very odd - I would have thought the 12V demand of the fridge alone would exceed 5A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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