Steve928 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 The German press is reporting the demise of the 3.0l power unit come spring next year, when it will be replaced by a 180bhp 400Nm version of the 2.3l engine i.e the same power output as the current 3.0l but from the smaller unit. Plus Euro6 standards to be met without using AdBlue, as Nick has often suggested would be the case. Excess NOx emmissions left following SCR to be collected in a storage unit (NSC) and then burnt off when full, so we now have 2 'filters/collectors' requiring regeneration in the exhaust system. Oh and a 15% improvement in fuel economy. Sounds like they might have nailed it - might have to get me one of those.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-12-01 3:46 PM Oh and a 15% improvement in fuel economy. might have to get me one of those.. Personally I would rather wait and let a few thousand other buyers pay for the priviledge of being Fiat's real world development guinea pigs, and as for the real world 'improved' mpg - time will tell!! Cynical? Me? You betcha!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Tracker - 2015-12-01 4:01 PM Steve928 - 2015-12-01 3:46 PM Oh and a 15% improvement in fuel economy. might have to get me one of those.. Personally I would rather wait and let a few thousand other buyers pay for the priviledge of being Fiat's real world development guinea pigs, and as for the real world 'improved' mpg - time will tell!! Cynical? Me? You betcha!! Dead right, there is no real need for the ordinary punter to be at the cutting edge of technology. Let those that have to, be there and take the risk, unless of course you happen to be Inspector Gadget. Simples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 If only Toyota chassis cabs were available in this coutry - I would buy one for the reliability and customer service alone even if it did cost more and on our sort of mileage who cares what mpg it does as long as it just does what it says on the box without all they warning lights coming on!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-12-01 3:46 PM The German press is reporting the demise of the 3.0l power unit come spring next year, when it will be replaced by a 180bhp 400Nm version of the 2.3l engine i.e the same power output as the current 3.0l but from the smaller unit. Plus Euro6 standards to be met without using AdBlue, as Nick has often suggested would be the case. Excess NOx emmissions left following SCR to be collected in a storage unit (NSC) and then burnt off when full, so we now have 2 'filters/collectors' requiring regeneration in the exhaust system. Oh and a 15% improvement in fuel economy. Sounds like they might have nailed it - might have to get me one of those.. Hi Steve, If your quote is correct; there is a problem. SCR is Selective Catalytic Reduction and this requires the use of AdBlue. All the indications so far is that AdBlue is inevitable but at the same time the use of SCR does have other benefits. In the Euro6 Iveco (also Fiat) trucks; SCR was used but they were able to dispense with the DPF. This is a very good thing! It reduces weight, cost and improves fuel economy. The first Euro6 Ducato's are already out there in the form of people carrying vans or 'Combi's' and these would seem to have SCR and DPF's but i think the final roll out will be able to do without the DPF... or at least i hope so! At this point only the 2.3-150 engine has the option of Euro6. I don't mind which way this goes really, but i would have thought SCR but no DPF would suit low mileage users like you guys better from a reliability point of view. One thing is certain, whatever the German source says; SCR means AdBlue. There is no doubt about that. Nick Hang on a mo... I have just found what i think is the article in 'Transport' magazine (Germany) and i think you have mis-quoted. This article suggests that Fiat is 'trying' to produce Euro6 engines with no SCR (and therefore no AdBlue) and would hope to use just EGR technology. There would be an SCR version too but only for the more stringent passenger vehicle applications (that i mentioned above, and that already exists). What this means is that hopefully the engines will be little different from the current ones and this kind of confirms what i already thought; The 2.3 Fiat engine is far and away the cleanest and most efficient commercial vehicle engine on the market, and will be the only van engine that does not need SCR technology to meet Euro6. I did predict this two years ago! The new rules will finally come in to force in September 2016, so if you like what is already on offer, you might want to order your new vehicle early next year but at the same time; there would seem to be little to fear from what comes next. I would not worry. I don't see how a higher level of EGR will improve economy; the two do not go hand in hand at all. I think the improvement of 15% may be from using the 2.3 engine instead of the 3.0 at 180hp. I would take that with a pinch of salt too! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Fiat promised improved fuel economy for the euro5+ engines over the 2007 euro4 units. My old euro4 X250 PVC had better fuel economy vs my 2015 X290 euro5+ to the tune of about 3-4MPG I'll take fiats claims of 'improved fuel economy' with a pinch of salt. Same driver, same loading, same usage pattern. If anything I am more gentle with the new van cause its well, new! Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 veletron - 2015-12-01 5:54 PM Fiat promised improved fuel economy for the euro5+ engines over the 2007 euro4 units. My old euro4 X250 PVC had better fuel economy vs my 2015 X290 euro5+ to the tune of about 3-4MPG I'll take fiats claims of 'improved fuel economy' with a pinch of salt. Same driver, same loading, same usage pattern. If anything I am more gentle with the new van cause its well, new! Nigel I think their expectations of improved economy were based on panel van applications. I think that the amount of wasted torque in moving larger vehicles through the air negates the gains considerably. In our own tests and following a lot of questions to our customers and their drivers we are finding that 2.3-130hp Maxi vans are achieving up to 10% better economy at Euro5+ than they did with Euro4. Some Euro5+ engines are consuming more oil than expected though! Why your PVC is not doing better is anyone's guess but i just wanted to say that we are seeing the opposite. Perhaps yours will improve as the mileage increases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Is the improved MPG according to van software or based on tank to tank x mileage done I wonder? ;-) ........ VW may not be the only manipulator of the facts :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 pelmetman - 2015-12-01 6:37 PM VW may not be the only manipulator of the facts That, I suspect, will turn out to be very true. Vee have vays of making you buy our cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Tracker - 2015-12-01 5:45 PM If only Toyota chassis cabs were available in this coutry - I would buy one for the reliability and customer service alone even if it did cost more and on our sort of mileage who cares what mpg it does as long as it just does what it says on the box without all they warning lights coming on!! Richard, I know you've said this before, but I'm wondering which model you are refering to? There are three Toyotas I know of which would be around the right size. The first is the Hiace SLWB, but AFAIK it's only available as a panel van, It's about the same size as a MWB Tranny, but as it's forward control it has (or appears to) more room inside, I was in one earlier this year, the only problem I could see was that conventional swivel seats wouldn't work, but I wonder if a lift/turn/drop system might work. The next is the Dyna and it's derivatives, this could be made into a coachbuilt, but the drive is not pleasant. The last is the Coaster, made as a mid sized bus, it's popular for conversion to motorhomes, a bit agricultural to drive, but much more pleasent to be in than the Dyna, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 Yes you're quite right Nick, I was quting from a German forum but having also now found the original article it is as you say. Looks like there will eventually be 2 versions, one with SCR+Adblue and then one with 'EGR+NCR Technik', i.e. NOx capture, the latter retaining the DPF also, but coming in 800 Euros cheaper and 40Kg lighter. Cheaper and lighter would be good for motorhomes :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Tracker - 2015-12-01 5:45 PM If only Toyota chassis cabs were available in this coutry - I would buy one for the reliability and customer service alone even if it did cost more and on our sort of mileage who cares what mpg it does as long as it just does what it says on the box without all they warning lights coming on!! Plus 1, I'l be their 2nd customer. I hate being told I am not driving my motor home correctly,because I don't thrash it everywhere, and don't do starship mileages. I want an engine that is fit for purpose, MY purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 colin - 2015-12-01 8:22 PM I know you've said this before, but I'm wondering which model you are refering to? Sorry Colin didn't mean to mislead you as I am not familiar with any of Toyota's truck range so I was just musing that if Toyota had a Ducato/Boxer look and size alike, preferably made in the UK at Derby maybe, it would get my vote. I am no expert on Toyotas but in over 10 years of various Toyota car ownership I have never had to visit a dealer other than for a routine service which kinda makes the point that the much vaunted Fiat as being allegedly the best available in the UK still has a long way to go to be the best it can be as I see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeco Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Rich the Toyota Coaster is very popular here with the free campers ( read wild) , there are lots on the road. In the T5 size there are some HiAce wiz bangs. It the bigger C class mainly Isuzu and Mitsubishi. Toyota do not seem interested. Having said that Toyota own the 4WD market, pretty much all the serious off-roaders drive Toyota. I am thinking farmers, mining operations etc seem to prefer HiAce, Prado or Landcruisers. I guess because that have a reputation for reliability. Maybe you should lobby Toyota for a Ducato type cab/chassis. I am happy with my Ducato so far with not one issue after 22k this year. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Cheers Gary, may the force be with both you and your Ducato! Perhaps they prefer drier climates!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Tracker - 2015-12-02 10:55 PM Cheers Gary, may the force be with both you and your Ducato! Perhaps they prefer drier climates!! Whilst many areas of Australia are dry, in others you can get massive downpours. In the north it's the tropics so it's expected, but one day driving up from Batemans bay to Sydney I experienced some of the worst driving conditions due to rain that I've ever driven in, hours of torrential rain. :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 This may be of interest http://tinyurl.com/nusgwx4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I notice that no Adblue for Euro 6 Ducato motors and dropping the 3.0litre powerplant were rumoured last August here https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/fiat-emissions-ahead-of-euro-vi-arrival Evidently Ford will be replacing the 2.2litre diesel motors currently used in Transits with new 2.0litre Euro 6 engines. http://www.vansa2z.com/Transits-to-get-20-litre-Euro-6-diesels-in-2016 Earlier reports have suggested that the new 2.0litre motor has ben developed by Ford as an independent venture, unlike the 2.2litre engine that was a joint venture with PSA and is fitted to Citroen Relays and Peugeot Boxers as well as Transit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brabander Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 This is an interesting subject in the light of the recent VW issues. With selective catalytic reduction (SCR) a reduction fluid is indeed needed. This fluid is concentrated ammonia based (usually AdBlue but it is possible that there are other fluids in the market). By the way AdBlue is very corrosive and will damage your clothes if spilled. There are other technologies in use which represent much lower cost solutions if they just require internal engine adjustments. Some years ago Mercedes decided to use AdBlue in all their larger Euro 6 engines but some other manufacturers have, so far, implemented lower cost options. I suspect that Fiat is just trying to avoid the additional cost of an SCR system. The simple fact is that the current emissions test regulations have allowed vehicle manufacturers to meet the Euro 5 and now the Euro 6 standards with solutions that give good results under test bench conditions but when the engines are operated under real load conditions the readings go off the scale! AdBlue based systems usually perform well under real road conditions but engine internal systems can perform extremely badly! It is therefore likely that Fiat may have second thoughts as it is very likely that a any new standards will force them to use SCR systems, just like Mercedes (and also VW in their new Transporters). As they say interesting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I notice that the information in the German magazine article mentioned earlier in this thread largely repeats what was said in a September 2014 Dutch magazine piece (Translations of both articles on following links). http://tinyurl.com/q57lnqp http://tinyurl.com/on5e2kd The Dutch article claimed that the Euro 6 180hp/400Nm 2.3litre MJ II motor would be completely new, but that remains to be seen. To obtain those power/torque-to-capacity outputs in a commercial-vehicle environment it’s quite likely that twin turbochargers would be employed, as used in some Mercedes Sprinter and Iveco Daily models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I don't know whether this debate went further on another thread or not, so the following may already have been discussed. There is a recently updated version of the X290 owners manual available which gives some visibility of Euro VI compliance, with the description of a Euro VI 2.3 150 utilising Adblu. I've only perused briefly, and can only find this one reference. AIUI, Euro VI may have been made available early on Panorama (mini-bus) models for compliance reasons, so it could just be that this is an interim arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I have just read the latest Which? magazine and in it they quote results of tests which they have had carried out on many vehicles. The results make sad reading, as many vehicles, both diesel and petrol emit far more pollution (NOX and CO) than their "Euro" ratings would suggest. The very definite suggestion is that many (if not all) vehicle manufacturers produce engines which do well in the tests, yet perform badly on the road. The specific engines used by both Fiat and Peugeot in motorhomes were not tested for this report, but it does make me wonder as to just how "Euro" compliant they will actually be in real world conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Not very. It's very sad because at each step of the way Fiat's engines have exceeded the requirements by a lot but now they are going to be just scraping by. Last week we were informed that there are serious delays with production of current long wheelbase vans and chassis due to a paint plant failure and that the delays will be so great that the prices for these vehicles are increasing by £900 from today and that when they arrive they will be Euro6. It seems that the talk of 'near Euro6 compliance' with the current Euro5+ is untrue or that they are just going to milk customers for £900 while not really achieving Euro6 emissions anywhere but on the test bench. This is a massive disappointment. If i am not getting proper Euro6 and SCR; i should not be paying extra for a second rate solution. My patience with Fiat is being severely tested right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorsetDiver Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Whatever they do I would much prefer a petrol engine running on LPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 DorsetDiver - 2016-02-01 3:17 PM Whatever they do I would much prefer a petrol engine running on LPG. The Fiat Ducato has been available for several years as a ‘dual-fuel’ vehicle, with a 3.0litre powerplant designed to run primarily on natural gas (CNG) but with the capability of using petrol as a fall-back. Some details here: http://gazeo.com/up-to-date/reportages-interviews-road-tests/road-tests/Fiat-Ducato-Natural-Power-natural-it-is,report,7449.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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