Phill Fougere Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi Folks, I have a problem with the engine operation on my motorhome. It started by the illumination of the Engine warning light (Engine symbol) on the CWP. There were no perceivable symptoms at this time. After a while the Engine Warning light extinguished. I used the camper for short journeys for several weeks without any warning light or engine problems. Last week I did a long distance trip from Cornwall to east Sussex approx 300miles. After 70 miles and while cruising in 6th gear at about 2200rpm the engine began to hesitate with a small fluctuation in the rev counter. The hesitation cleared after about 30 secs and there were no warning lights on the CWP. I continued on for another 70miles and while making a sharp turn and going uphill the engine hesitated badly and power was reduced significantly with the illumination of the Engine warning light. I struggled up the hill and stopped at a convenient place. After a cup of coffee and 20 mins rest I fired up the engine and pulled way normally with the Engine warning light illuminated. These symptoms continued throughout my 600mile round trip. After about 70 miles the engine would hesitate and I would pull over. After 20/30 mins I would start up and all was well for another 70 miles. On occasions the engine hesitation would be accompanied by a "whooshing" noise from, the engine compartment. This whooshing noise was apparent even when stationary at 810rpm. It sounded like the turbocharger was cycling on/off At one time I stopped at a garage and they checked for fault codes on the engine management system. Fault code P0638 was indicated. I was advised that this code indicated a problem with the Throttle Valve. Have any of you folks experienced anything similar? How smart is the FIAT software in isolating defects in the engine management system? Changing a throttle valve is expensive. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 You need to talk to Nick Fisher. I had a similar problem turned out to be mice in the inlet pipe. p.s. No whooshing sound from mine, the local Fiat garage diagnosed one fault after another, none where corect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi Phill, I would be happy to try to assist you but will need to know the age of your vehicle. If possible please send me a PM with the chassis number and we can take it from there. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caddies104 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Well done..... Now that' what you call a great service in under an hour.... Just brilliant (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Right. Here we go...... The details that you have provided state that your March '08 vehicle was built on 5th October 2007. From your description of the fault, i can be pretty certain of what needs to be done, and the order in which to do it. Unless this vehicle has already had a modified throttle body fitted, you are almost certainly going to need one. Sorry. In the meantime and assuming that you have not reached the stage yet whereby a huge quantity of black smoke is emitted from the exhaust while the engine is running badly and losing power; you can relieve the symptoms by removing the right hand pipe that is pushed onto the solenoid valve. This valve is bolted to the rear of a plate that is underneath the windscreen scuttle and extends 6 inches down towards the engine. This is always worth a try if you are in a mess but needs to be regarded as a temporary fix only. This solenoid will be getting quite hot because it is having to do a lot more work than it normally would, and will almost certainly need to be replaced once the throttle body is attended to. They just wear out. The test for the throttle body is to remove the rubber pipe on the left hand side so that the metal flap inside the throttle body can be reached with your fingers. If it moves very freely and returns unaided to the position that it was before; you may be lucky and it might be alright. If it is even slightly 'sticky' in operation or is stuck or does not return it is broken and will need to be replaced. The initial units fitted from 2006 were brittle and did not last long. The pivot for the flap was attached in a very weak manner to the actuator (motor drive) and broke frequently. The later revised devices were not much better until 2009 when a completely new and much more substantial unit was offered (and fitted at the factory after September 2009). The only problem with this one is that the electrical plug is incompatible with the earlier loom and requires an extortionately expensive converter lead. The replacement of the throttle body is a job not for the feint of heart. It requires the removal of the front panel and radiator(s) to provide sufficient access. Some of the bolts that secure the body and the EGR piping will inevitably break and you will need to have access to the right kit to deal with that. It will take even a garage that does this job regularly at least 4 hours to complete and you may well require additional parts like gaskets and seals (plus a few screws) to get it done. The latest throttle body is part number 504351131 and Fiat will want about £280 for it. The same item is available from Iveco dealers for about £75 less. The conversion loom is part number 504388760 costing about £115 from Fiat and a startling £60 from Iveco! You will definitely need a gasket 504084278 which is inexpensive. The solenoid valve is part number 46524556 and is around £165 from Fiat. An identical device made by Pierburg (pt number 7.02256.03.0) can be bought from Andrew Page for £35 less. However tempting the prices may look; do not even consider any used parts. This is not a job you want to do again! This kind of throttle body will not be improved by 'cleaning'. This is an absolute waste of time since the device is normally not just sticking, but broken. If there seems to be nothing wrong with the throttle body you should go straight to the solenoid valve and replace that. The bobbins used to fix it to the metal plate often break so you may need a couple of those too. Don't forget to remove the little exhaust part from the bottom of the valve and fit it to your new one. The plastic plugs that are inserted in the new one MUST be removed, and there are 3 of them. Make careful note of which of the two pipes goes to which side! On the 2.3 engine they cross over each other, and on 3.0 engines they don't! This though is a job that you might wish to try to do yourself. I am truly sorry to be the bearer of such expensive news but hopefully you can save some money by purchasing the items that you need from the other sources mentioned. If you need any further guidance just let me know and please keep us all updated with your progress. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Fougere Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thank you Nick for your prompt and detailed reply. I am getting ready to sell one of the grandchildren to pay for the repair. In the meantime could you give me a brief description of the the function and interface of the throttle body and solenoid. With reference to the solenoid valve RH pipe. Is this viewed from looking from the front of the engine bay or with respect to the van while looking forward. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Phill, The right hand pipe as seen standing in front of the vehicle; looking at it. As regards further explanation of the workings of the system, I have explained exactly what you need to do and am afraid that I don't have the time as well as running a business to get into that. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Fougere Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Thanks Nick for all your help. I will sort the other query out myself. I appreciate your time spent on assisting me. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gram Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 From the information in Nick's posting it appears that the engine's air supply system in Phill's 2.3L is very similar to that in my 3.0L. As far as I understand it works as follows: The output from the air filter is drawn into the turbocharger, which is driven by the exhaust gas, from which it exits slightly compressed, and warm (maybe hot). This compressed warm/hot air then passes through the Intercooler which cools it down. The output from the Intercooler is fed to the Throttle, the position of the vane of which determines the amount of air admitted into the cylinders to mix with the atomised diesel fuel, which, upon compression, causes the Power stroke. However, the EGR system, under certain conditions, causes a percentage of the exhaust gases to mix with the air entering the cylinders. It does this by tapping off exhaust gas from the exhaust manifold and directing it through a water-cooled heat exchanger to cool it down. The output of this heat exchanger is fed into the EGR Valve which, when actuated, allows the gas to enter the air intake circuit at a point prior to the Throttle. The operation of the EGR valve is controlled by the Engine Control Unit (ECU) controlling the EGR Pneumatic Valve (the solenoid valve) which allows a tap-off from the brakes vacuum system to operate the EGR valve as required. As Nick does not mention the EGR Valve as a specific item, maybe on the 2.3L the EGR Valve and Throttle are contained in the same unit. Hope this serves to enlighten rather than confuse. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Gram - 2014-02-14 7:54 PM As Nick does not mention the EGR Valve as a specific item, maybe on the 2.3L the EGR Valve and Throttle are contained in the same unit. G "Err, no Ted" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi Nick You may remember we discussed changing wide mirrors for medium Peugeot ones a few years ago - I would appreciate your help again. My Autotrail Tracker, like Phill's was delivered March 2008 and rightly or wrongly, following your advice I decided to change the throttle body to avoid possibly getting stuck one day on the far side of Europe. I have now removed it (managed without removing the radiator by using a claw foot O/E spanner on the front left bolt which then dropped down into the fan housing! ) and have a new Magneti Marelli to refit. Someone suggested re-using the large and small (aluminium?) gaskets but they seem to be coated with some type of compound. Do you always replace the gaskets and do you use any type of compound on them to seal the joints? One of the bolts attaching the body to the engine block was a bit stiff to remove and took some gentle persuasion with PlusGas to get it out safely. It was showing some signs of corrosion and galling with the aluminium casting. As the front of the engine is fairly exposed would you use something like Coppaslip or perhaps Optimol TA alu paste re-fitting nuts and bolts on the engine which are prone to corrosion? If so, do you just use commonsense re-tightening because the quoted torque settings presumably only apply to dry threads? Thanks Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Hi Roger, You can get away with not removing the radiator sometimes. I did one this week and having removed the slam panel I just lifted the radiator up on the right hand side and moved it forwards a bit. This gave me enough room to get onto the awkward bolt with a long extension and standard socket. This bolt is always the most stubborn since it is the only one that is not in a blind hole. The oxidisation builds up on the other end of the screw and starts filling the hole up! On this occasion I was very lucky and it seems that so have you. If the screw had broken; which is more common, you would have needed more room to get things sorted out and that would have been exit time for the radiator. I do use new gaskets and apply copper or aluminium grease to every hole and thread (to make sure). It makes things a bit smelly when you start it up again while it burns away but it makes the job a lot easier next time. You don't really have to use the new gaskets; I think the old ones should be fine but for the sake of a few pounds when you have done so much seems barely worth it. The large gasket is 504084278 (£3.92) and the small ones are 504341194 (£1.69) of which you will probably need 2. The replacement throttle body differs from the original in that it has no studs on the EGR side, so you will need 2x M8 x 25 (or 30) screws to fit the EGR flange to it. Grease them well! Also apply grease to every single screw that you fit on the front of the van for the slam panel, radiator mounts, bumper and grille panels. You won't regret it in years to come. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Now there's a surprise a Fiat with an electrical problem. Who would have thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 starvin marvin - 2014-02-28 12:10 PM Now there's a surprise a Fiat with an electrical problem. Who would have thought? Statistically speaking you probably had a flu jab before the winter and will more than likely have a bad back or arthritis at some point. There is not really a point to this comment but then again nor was there with yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 euroserv - 2014-02-28 11:03 AMHi Roger,You can get away with not removing the radiator sometimes. I did one this week and having removed the slam panel I just lifted the radiator up on the right hand side and moved it forwards a bit. This gave me enough room to get onto the awkward bolt with a long extension and standard socket. This bolt is always the most stubborn since it is the only one that is not in a blind hole. The oxidisation builds up on the other end of the screw and starts filling the hole up! On this occasion I was very lucky and it seems that so have you. If the screw had broken; which is more common, you would have needed more room to get things sorted out and that would have been exit time for the radiator.I do use new gaskets and apply copper or aluminium grease to every hole and thread (to make sure). It makes things a bit smelly when you start it up again while it burns away but it makes the job a lot easier next time. You don't really have to use the new gaskets; I think the old ones should be fine but for the sake of a few pounds when you have done so much seems barely worth it.The large gasket is 504084278 (£3.92) and the small ones are 504341194 (£1.69) of which you will probably need 2.The replacement throttle body differs from the original in that it has no studs on the EGR side, so you will need 2x M8 x 25 (or 30) screws to fit the EGR flange to it. Grease them well!Also apply grease to every single screw that you fit on the front of the van for the slam panel, radiator mounts, bumper and grille panels. You won't regret it in years to come.NickNick you know how I feel about (spit) Fiats .But I have to say your one TOP GUY ,you give you help so Freely and were lucky to have you on the Forum, More Power to your Elbow ,as we say. Dennis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks Dennis. THAT is the kind of comment that makes it worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks Nick - as ever much appreciated. I think if I'd known that breaking a bolt was common I might not have been quite so enthusiastic to tackle the job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Just a few observations for anyone also contemplating changing a throttle body on a 2.3 Ducato (obviously I can't comment on any of the other engine variations). The front middle plastics are in two parts - the grill insert and the remainder of the backing plastics behind. Having first removed the obvious screws and the 2 plastic buttons at the bottom of the grill it's still fairly firmly fixed and requires lifting vertically to disengage the lugs at the bottom and the side. Some form of tyre lever or similar at the bottom would have probably helped to spring the grille out but with care it's possible to remove it without breaking anything. The remainder comes off easily after removing all the remaining screws. The attached photos should make things a bit clearer. Strictly speaking the battery negative lead should be removed. However on the Autotrail I believe there is also a positive link to the leisure battery so the negative would also need to be removed on this to ensure that all the Fiat electrics are isolated. Removing the bolts on the throttle body clearly has some issues as noted by me and Nick. The top two and the bottom right are easily accessible but the bottom left is a monkey. As Nick says this drilling is open hole and corrosion spreads upward. However in my case it was the top left which had suffered water ingress from above and started to seize. If as Nick suggests the bolts are seized in so tight that they are likely to break I would probably stop before putting too much pressure on because removal is going to require some fairly involved workshop attention to remove them (drilling out and helicoiling - as Nick says this job is not for the feint-hearted!). As mentioned I was able to get the bottom left bolt out easily using a claw foot O/E spanner on the end of a 3/8" extension bar. If this had been at all seized I suspect this method would not work. In my case I could (just) get access without removing the radiator. Unlike Nick who was able to lift one end of the radiator this isn't possible where, as with mine, the air-con rad is fixed rigidly to the compressor. So if this bolt shows any sign of difficulty you know that draining and re-filling the air-con (as a minimum) is going to become necessary. Having removed the nuts at the end of the throttle body mine still wouldn't come out despite being very loose and needed removal of the nuts on the other end of the stainless connecting pipe - hence the need for 2 of the smaller gaskets. I have yet to refit the new TB but hopefully these notes sound a warning that it may not all go to plan! If I encounter any more problems I will post again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Fougere Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Hi Folks, I have had the throttle Body replaced as Nick suggested. There was no need to remove any radiator or disturb the Aircon (Lucky Duck). The total cost was 576 Stg. Breakdown: Throttlebody 230.00 (Iveco with Garage discount). Cable Assy 52.00 Labour 190.00 Gaskets etc. 8.00 VAT 96.00 Solenoid valve not changed at this time. I took a 250 mile round trip to prove the system all OK. Point to note the fuel consumption improved significantly approx 3mpg. Thank you Nick and all others that contributed with valuable info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 These were the full prices which Fiat quoted (inc VAT). Fiat TB - £305.26 Iveco TB - £286.89 Fiat loom - £158.40 Iveco loom - £62.80 In both cases 15% discount was offered. However......I was told that if I fitted Iveco parts to a Fiat they would not offer any warranty. Not sure how they could make that stick but knowing Fiat I'm sure they would try! So in the end I went for this at £275 including the short cable link. http://www.neatcarparts.co.uk/throttle-body-egr-valve--cable-for-fiat-ducato-23jtd-multijet-06--504351131-25822-p.asp They confirmed that it is OEM and came as Magneti Marelli and replaced the original Wahler. From the photo below it can be seen that the new TB is a complete redesign and although not obvious the bottom left bolt now has easy access because of the new shape of the casting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 roger20 - 2014-02-28 11:14 PM As mentioned I was able to get the bottom left bolt out easily using a claw foot O/E spanner on the end of a 3/8" extension bar. If this had been at all seized I suspect this method would not work. In my case I could (just) get access without removing the radiator. Unlike Nick who was able to lift one end of the radiator this isn't possible where, as with mine, the air-con rad is fixed rigidly to the compressor. So if this bolt shows any sign of difficulty you know that draining and re-filling the air-con (as a minimum) is going to become necessary. Roger (and for the benefit of anyone else that is contemplating this job for themselves...), What I do is remove the six screws that fix the slam panel and the two that secure the radiator bosses before removing the slam panel and then lift the right hand end of the radiator out of it's rubber support and pull it forwards at that end about an inch which does not even pull on the air conditioning pipes at the other end and this gives me enough room to put a socket on the bottom left bolt of the throttle body using a long extension. If the bolt does shear, you would be looking at draining the coolant and air con systems and removing all of the radiators to get the access that you would need to start trying to heat up and extract the broken stud. It can be done but you need more room. I have done two more throttle bodies today on 08 plate 100,000 mile vans without any drama so it looks like it's only the very high mileage or really old vehicles that will be a pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomasu2443 Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Hi all, I have had exactly the same problem with my Fiat ducato 120 multijet and thanks to Nicks really helpful info think that i might be nearing sorting it out. I have removed the throttle body pipe and checked that the butterfly flap is moving freely and there appears to be no sticking in any way. So have ordered a new solenoid as recommended and plan to fit it myself as all looks fairly straight forward. One thing that is a slight concern is that on close inspection it looks like the two small rubber hoses/pipes that are connected to the existing Fiat solenoid are running in straight and not crossed over as Nicks post suggests they should be. If i understood correctly this should only be the case on the 3.0 model and not the 2.3 which is what my ducato is. So my question is should i connect as they are at the moment or should I cross them over?Also what will happen if they are incorrectly attached? I have had the van for around 4 years and this problem only started this year and to my knowledge those pipes have not been removed so i would assume that they are in the right place but would like confirmation I would really appreciate it if Nick was still available to answer this question as his original post was really helpful to me after hours of trawling through endless threads that have lead to nothing, but if any one else has a clear answer i would be extremely grateful Thanks in advance Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Hello Tom, I would not be too concerned about the pipes being 'crossed over' or not; in fact i have just looked at two vehicles and they are not crossed over at all! What is important is that (looking from the front of the van, into the engine compartment) the left hand pipe goes to join the vertical vacuum pipe via a 't' piece and the right hand pipe goes to the end of the EGR diaphragm. I have not tried running a vehicle with them swapped around but i imagine there would be a warning message on the dashboard and probably some black smoke; it might not want to rev up either. Not the sort of experiment i am going to do just for kicks! I am delighted that this thread continues to be helpful. Nick PS; The above information is correct for 2.3 litre Euro 4 engines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandy Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 From what I've seen on this forum and elsewhere, it seem that Fiat engines are fundamentally robust but prone to complicated and expensive problems with the ancillary equipment and electrics. I am currently looking at two near identical vans in terms of age and mileage - both 2007 Burstner Maranos with the 2.3 Fiat engine - one an X 2/44 and the other an X 2/50. My inclination was to go for the 2/50 but I am wondering whether the earlier model might be less prone to such problems and cheaper/easier to fix when it does go wrong. Any thoughts? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 This is a very interesting question. I would have given a different answer a couple of years ago but here is my current reasoning.... Simplicity is a wonderful thing, and for the next few years it would be reasonable to assume that the less sophisticated Euro 3 engine in an earlier Ducato (Pre 2006) would not suffer from electrical wiring and EGR/Throttle body issues that afflict most 2006 on Euro 4's. Balance this with the fact that once the wiring problems are rectified and pre 2009 throttle bodies are replaced, there will be few problems with them and as a bonus you won't have the wheel bearing and suspension mount issues that are common on the earlier vehicles and almost unheard of on later ones. None of the above would affect my final decision though. The problem with the older vehicles is that they are older. Fiat, in common with most manufacturers does not feel obliged to support vehicles over 10 years old with original parts, and in the case of pre 2002 vehicles this is already becoming an issue. Parts for gearboxes, cables for accelerators and clutches, electrical and trim items are becoming scarce if made at all and the after-market for these items was never large enough for third parties to get involved in producing pattern parts. The situation for owners of vehicles built before 1994 is dire already, for '94 to 2002 is a bit of a worry and 2002 to 2006 will soon be in the same situation. If you are thinking about keeping this vehicle for a few years; the only way to go is newer. Keep a grand or so on ice for any repairs but sleep better at night knowing that the parts will be available and that there are some fairly clever people out there that know how to fix them. I am sorry if this is less than reassuring to owners of less new vehicles but i have to tell it like it is. I know that Renault and Ford are even worse at supporting vehicles over 10 years old than Fiat; so i assure you that it's not just a bad attitude from Fiat! Supplies of parts specific to a generation of vehicle are generally available for 10 years and then taper off if there has not been consistent demand for the item concerned. Parts that wear out quickly or fail regularly will be supported because there is a financial case for them to do so but items that rot away slowly or are really designed to last the lifetime of the vehicle will disappear first. That raises the real question. What is the life expectancy of a van or base vehicle? I think most were designed to have a primary life of 3 or 4 years and then a more relaxed life of 2 or 3 more before wearing out. I understand that motor-homes generally do a lot less miles than a van but should we really expect them to last 20 or 30 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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