Florence Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 After the helpful replies from my first posting, I would like to ask another question if I may. Does anyone have a motorhome with this engine, and on a 3500kg is it worth the extra money when compared with a 2.3 130 BHP manual gearbox? Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I’m not sure if that’s answerable. Taking prices from a now-outdated Rapido listing, the cost of upgrading from a 2.3litre MJ 130 motor to an MJ 150 was £1160 and the cost of a ComfortMatic gearbox was £1490. So opting for an MJ 150 with ComfortMatic gearbox would have cost £2650 (£1160 + £1490) more than having a Ducato with MJ 130 motor and manual transmission. My own view is that (irrespective of whether the transmission is manual or ComfortMatic) if a motorhome will weigh more than 3200kg when normally loaded, it would be preferable to opt for the MJ 150 motor. And the closer the vehicle comes to 3500kg in normally-loaded state, the greater the incentive to opt for the MJ 150 becomes. You really need to ask yourself “Do I want a ComfortMatic gearbox enough to pay the extra cost?” and then “Do I want an MJ 150 motor enough to pay the extra cost?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 And the extra weight of the auto gearbox will eat away at your load margin to achieve the 3500kg which I think is an artificially low figure for a touring motorhome. It encourages accidental overloading. I have the 150 bhp engine but on a manual box, 4250kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Load margins are important but how many of us take things away with us that we do not use. To me the relaxing drive of a Comfortmatic outweighs all other considerations so the original poster needs to ask himself if he wants an automatic gearbox or not. The 150bhp option would be preferable whether in manual or comfortmatic form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Thank you to all have replied. Raysjs, may I ask a question? Have you experienced any problems with the higher BHP engine. I have been reading reports that incidents of juddering have occured when reversing motorhomes using a 2.3 Ducato engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Someone is taking the mickey! Fiat's price list states that the difference in price for upgrading from 130hp to 150hp is £750 (plus vat). Take into account the likely discounts that the coachbuilders get this is likely to be about £400. Their price for the comfort-matic option is £1300 plus vat. The converters will be paying about £800 for that. Therefore the cost of an upgrade from 130 to 150 and adding the automated gearbox costs them about £1200 from the factory. Don't let them rip you off! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 Hi Nick, Those upgrade figures are interesting. Is there anywhere in the public domain that the figures you quoted can be viewed.Would make good bargaining it they are. Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Easily done. Go to the Fiat Professional website, select 'brochures' and then select 'download price list' Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It's the converters rather than the dealers that set the price for the gearbox and engine upgrades so these prices are unlikely to be a bargaining tool. Unfortunately we are all being ripped off. Nothing new there as the same seems to apply to many aspects of the leisure industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It's like most things though Mike, If enough people; armed with the right information say NO! to the dealer prices they will have to go back to the manufacturers and tell them that their rip off pricing is spoiling their chances of selling vehicles. Losing one deal would not hurt but 10 or more would cause a ripple. Even if you walk away and come back a few weeks or months later; you walked away from a deal because it was not right. It will be noted; especially if you took a couple of hours of the salesman's time and he got no sale! In any case; I am sure that there is enough room in the margins that the dealer's make in order to soften some of these inflated option prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Florence - 2015-04-02 12:03 PM Thank you to all have replied. Raysjs, may I ask a question? Have you experienced any problems with the higher BHP engine. I have been reading reports that incidents of juddering have occured when reversing motorhomes using a 2.3 Ducato engine.. No juddering, but it is not happy reversing uphill when fully loaded, the reverse gear is still higher than it should be, I just increase the revs , but the clutch complains, would have loved a Comfortmatic to ease the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 And It does. The auto is magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Yep, I have the 150 with Comformatic box very pleased with it, last van was a 130 manual always had plenty of power but the 150 is much better, it you can afford it go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamw Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 euroserv - 2015-04-02 12:30 PM Someone is taking the mickey! Their price for the comfort-matic option is £1300 plus vat. The converters will be paying about £800 for that. Therefore the cost of an upgrade from 130 to 150 and adding the automated gearbox costs them about £1200 from the factory. Don't let them rip you off! Nick It's interesting to try and establish how much a converter is actually making on purely sourcing a vehicle disregarding the the charge for conversion. Some suggest an immediate mark-up of 20% on the price they pay is a normal starting point for the premium independent converters. When times are good I would suggest you'll end up paying Fiat list price which is even more. Certainly any options such as uprated engines and auto boxes will only be offered at list price and any attempt to negotiate in my experience will be rejected. Your only option is to walk away. Of course one has to take into consideration other aspects of a deal such as a very good trade-in offer or the carrying out of modifications for the customer at no extra charge which in effect are funded from the converters profit on sourcing the vehicle. The more affordable independent converters I would suggest make 15% on sourcing a vehicle but probably those who give the best deal on sourcing a vehicle are the large manufacturers such as Swift and Autotrail who negotiate directly with Fiat and pass on to customers some of the price benefits of their confidential discussions. I would estimate that the premium independent converters make more money from sourcing a vehicle than they do from the actual conversion. When the run-out of the Ducato X250 took place in March 2014 I noticed a highly regarded independent converter boasted of having "stock vans" for the very first time. Obviously unprecedented discounts would have been available to have encouraged the investment. Euroserv will probably be able to enlighten us there. I did get a quote on one of these "stock vans" hoping for a favourable price but was only offered one at a non-negotiable list price plus £2,500 for the addition of a microwave and alteration to a cupboard. I ended up buying my own van (a later X290 3L Comfortmatic) and having a bespoke conversion done for considerably less money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Rayjsj - 2015-04-02 9:08 AM And the extra weight of the auto gearbox will eat away at your load margin to achieve the 3500kg which I think is an artificially low figure for a touring motorhome. It encourages accidental overloading. I have the 150 bhp engine but on a manual box, 4250kg. But not by that much Ray. The extra weight of the 150PS vs the 130PS is a mere 0.5kg. The extra weight of the comfortmatic is quoted at 17kg. So yes, heavier, but if one is calculating payload to that level of accuracy, one is liable to end in trouble! The variation permissible in unladen weight (which is completely outside one's control) is way, way, beyond a measly 17kg. IMO, if you think you're within 17kg of 3,500kg, you need to upgrade the chassis, review the van, or reduce what you intend carrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 euroserv - 2015-04-02 12:30 PM Someone is taking the mickey! Fiat's price list states that the difference in price for upgrading from 130hp to 150hp is £750 (plus vat). Take into account the likely discounts that the coachbuilders get this is likely to be about £400. Their price for the comfort-matic option is £1300 plus vat. The converters will be paying about £800 for that. Therefore the cost of an upgrade from 130 to 150 and adding the automated gearbox costs them about £1200 from the factory. Don't let them rip you off! Nick This is true, but as stated, if you want a "brand X" motorhome, you tend to have to pay "brand X" prices - or else change to brand Y. But, folk should also look closely at what is, actually, being offered. It is not unusual for chassis upgrades to be offered as packages, so if the selection of the more powerful engine or an auto 'box is seen as a sign the buyer wants greater comfort, it may be that the converter bundles that engine or 'box with auto aircon, in lieu of manual, or some other add-on that inflates the price. Few, if any, of the converters give access to the full range of base vehicle manufacturer's options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Florence, I have the 130 Comfort-matic hauling 3500kg without any problem in the UK over 11,000 miles. I doubt I will replacing Jeremy Clarkson; Captain Slow [James May] best describes my driving style. I'd be less inclined to have the 130 if I spent time in the Alps or on other such passes. I'd probably would want the 150bhp. On the Fiat Camper website, there is a simple guide to choosing your engine based on expected usage. A friend of mine has remapped his 130 to 160. It will be interesting to see how he gets on with it. As for the Comfort-matic, it provides relaxed motoring for me in the UK and also easy manoeuvring. Doesn't seem to harm fuel consumption. However, as if often reported, it is slow off the mark with the change from 1st to 2nd which can result in impatient car drivers honking their horn because you can't do 0-60 like they can. Crossing high speed roundabouts can be interesting. The Comfort-matic also gets confused when we wander around the Pennines where it can become confused by the sudden changes in gradient and braking into/accelerating out of sharp corners. It is easy to override the Comfort-matic or just switch to manual. I doubt I will get any long term benefit, such as less wear, from having the Comfort-matic so I would suggest upgrading the engine from 130 to 150 is a better use of money than speccing the Comfort-matic. 150 + Comfort-matic would be a good choice for motoring pleasure but I'm not convinced it's a financially astute choice. For now, I'm content with my 130 and Comfort-matic. Unless someone buys me a 3 litre! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Posted April 3, 2015 Author Share Posted April 3, 2015 Many thanks to all you people that took the time to help me. We have pretty much decided to have the 150BHP automatic. Kind Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Florence - 2015-04-03 7:10 PM Many thanks to all you people that took the time to help me. We have pretty much decided to have the 150BHP automatic. Kind Regards An excellent decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcobird Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Florence - 2015-04-03 7:10 PM Many thanks to all you people that took the time to help me. We have pretty much decided to have the 150BHP automatic. Kind Regards I too have been considering this very question, I have a van on order with upgraded chassis and the new 130 euro 6 engine. If I want the auto box I have to upgrade to the 150 engine which would probably be better anyway. My concern is the value and ability to sell in years to come, do automatic boxes sell better, worse or is there no particular preference ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Barcobird - 2016-08-25 11:32 PM Florence - 2015-04-03 7:10 PM Many thanks to all you people that took the time to help me. We have pretty much decided to have the 150BHP automatic. Kind Regards I too have been considering this very question, I have a van on order with upgraded chassis and the new 130 euro 6 engine. If I want the auto box I have to upgrade to the 150 engine which would probably be better anyway. My concern is the value and ability to sell in years to come, do automatic boxes sell better, worse or is there no particular preference ? A motorhome with an automatic box is very simple to sell. I have sold two and the one thing that stood out was how keen dealers were to do a deal. They told me that demand for automatics outweighed supply in the second hand market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Barcobird This Practical Motorhome article comments on the Ducato Euro 6 updates http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/news/39133-euro-6-fiat-ducato-variety-and-performance The “Comfort-Matic” system used in Ducato is a robotised manual transmission comprising a manual gearbox with clever bells and whistles that allow a clutch-pedal to be dispensed with and gear-changing to be automated. Although the Comfort-Matic system has inherent characteristics that technical purists may not care for, most motorcaravanners who opt for Comfort-Matic like it. The extra complexity over a simple manual transmission inevitably can make problem diagnosis trickier, but Comfort-Matic reliability appears to have been pretty good since its introduction. The Fiat Ducato has, for quite a few years, been the dominant base-vehicle for motorhome conversions and the option to choose an ‘automatic’ transmission has definitely been a valuable selling point for Fiat. If I were in your position, although I might consider the pros and cons of Comfort-Matic regarding the initial extra cost and selling the motorhome eventually, my first priority would be whether I wanted the system myself. I don’t NEED an automatic gearbox in my motorhome, nor do I really want one, so I’d opt for the cheaper manual transmission. I’m not sure if the initial extra cost of Comfort-Matic could be fully recouped when the vehicle was sold, but (as Mike88 says) there’s no doubt that a secondhand ‘automatic’ motorhome will be an attractive proposition for many buyers. I’m confident you’d have no difficulty selling a Comfort-Matic-equipped motorhome and I’m pretty sure you’d get a usefully better price for it than for the manual-gearbox equivalent. But if you have to pay extra for the 150bhp motor so that you can have Comfort-Matic, that’s a cost double-whammy you need to think about if the 130bhp motor and manual transmission would be adequate for your requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-08-26 8:37 AM But if you have to pay extra for the 150bhp motor so that you can have Comfort-Matic, that’s a cost double-whammy Derek, You do not have to upgrade to a 150 to have ComfortMatic, according to the Fiat Professional website you can now have it on a 130... http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Models/Ducato_Goods_Transport/Performance Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Keithl - 2016-08-26 8:52 AM Derek Uzzell - 2016-08-26 8:37 AM But if you have to pay extra for the 150bhp motor so that you can have Comfort-Matic, that’s a cost double-whammy Derek, You do not have to upgrade to a 150 to have ComfortMatic, according to the Fiat Professional website you can now have it on a 130... http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Models/Ducato_Goods_Transport/Performance Keith. That is correct. In fact Autosleepers only offer a 130bhp engine alternative on a Comfortmatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Keithl - 2016-08-26 8:52 AM Derek Uzzell - 2016-08-26 8:37 AM But if you have to pay extra for the 150bhp motor so that you can have Comfort-Matic, that’s a cost double-whammy Derek, You do not have to upgrade to a 150 to have ComfortMatic, according to the Fiat Professional website you can now have it on a 130... http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Models/Ducato_Goods_Transport/Performance Keith. I’m well aware of that (How could you think otherwise? ;-) ) - it’s also stated in the Practical Motorhome article. Barcobird said “...I have a van on order with upgraded chassis and the new 130 euro 6 engine. If I want the auto box I have to upgrade to the 150 engine which would probably be better anyway...” As the motorhome make and model were not stated, it would have been churlish for me to contradict that statement. For all I know whatever motorhome barcobird is buying has to have (at least) the 150bhp motor when Comfort-Matic is specified and it’s not possible to order a 130bhp motor and Comfort-Matic combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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