Shewolf55 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Hi - we recently had a tour around Brittany and had trouble with our very large wing mirrors, nearly hitting everything we past. We have looked at wing mirrors for our Fiat Ducato model and have noticed that there are short and med arm options, we have long ones. Has anyone taken off the long arm standard ones and replaced them with the short or med ones? The reason for doing this is 1 - to stop potential clipping other vehicles 2 - so I can have clear view of drivers wing mirror without vision obstruction from window pillar, as husband is tall and has seat fully back Currently he needs to lean forward to use mirror properly Thanks Sarah xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 There are an amazingly large number of different wing mirrors fitted to Ducatos. If someone has specified the long arm ones for yours I guess its because the body is wider than the cab and you need them to see behind properly. Otherwise your blind spot behind the van is going to get far wider? Overhanging mirrors is a perennial problem for large vehicles, especially in England where few councils bother to trim the greenery at the side of the road, so to avoid smashing their mirrors the largest vehicles are forced to veer on to the wrong side of the road against the oncoming traffic 8-) But, as long as we have a Prime Minister who would rather spend £900,000 painting motifs on his plane than maintaining the road network, its just something we have to manage with as best we can :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Yes, it has been done. As long as you match the various options e.g. power, heating, temperature sensor, antenna etc. then it's a straightforward job. Slightly more complicated if you have Remis or other cassette blinds fitted to the doors. I know of some Bailey 'Compact' (the narrow van) owners who replaced their long arm mirrors with short arm. I guess it's easiest for converters to order all their chassis with long arm mirrors irrespective of the width of the caravan body that will be built upon the chassis and consequently you do see some obvious mismatches, the Bailey Compacts mentioned above being one of them. Technically , with long arm mirrors fitted, they failed to comply with the Construction and Use Regulations as the mirrors stuck out too far (but Bailey refused to pay to have the mirrors changed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Sarah Replacing a Ducato motorhome’s ‘long-arm’ mirrors with shorter-arm versions has been enquired about here before. in this 2013 discussion https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Hoary-old-chestnut-Ducato-wing-mirrors-/30021/ the 14 January 2013 5:57 PM posting by “roger20” mentioned successfully replacing long-arm mirrors with medium arm equivalents. He advised as follows: ...I replaced my long-arm mirrors for medium-arm versions on my 2008 Autotrail Tracker and it was an unqualified success, albeit rather costly and time-consuming. Whilst it doesn't remove the need for care it does greatly help to remove the feeling of vulnerability I had with the originals. I did briefly toy with the idea of short-arm versions but couldn't be sure that they would give the required vision and given the cost (although very much cheaper) it was too much of a gamble. On later reflection it might have been worth trying to scource a smashed O/S short-arm mirror to see whether that might work. Although I have a Fiat base mine are actually from Peugeot. Delving into both Fiat and Peugeot options for mirrors is a minefield and even Nick Fisher (Euroserv) couldn't help so the only way was to find a motorhome with the right versions (ie electric, heated and correct width) and use the chassis number to order from Peugeot (on a non-return basis!!). Having got them I was lulled into a false sense of security because the nearside was quite a bit more expensive than the offside. I naively thought that this was because it had a radio aerial (which is in the nearside mirror on the Tracker) only to find it wasn't present and the difference was just some quirk of Peugeot pricing. Having already dismantled one broken mirror completely it was not too daunting, although quite time-consuming to swap the aerial into the new Peugeot mirror. All in all it was well worth it in the end and 18 months on I have almost forgotton the process but its not for the faint-hearted! All this came about because we had swapped our original Autotrail 630 LB for a slightly shorter and more importantly, narrower Tracker. However rather lazily Autotrail had just used the same base vehicle (with wide-arm mirrors) that they use across the range, despite building (at that time) a narrower body for the Tracker... Your motorhome is a Burstner Solano T615 and the model’s dimensions are specified in this advert https://www.becksmotorhomes.com/vehicle/2007-burstner-solano-t615 The width of 2.30m means that you DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT replace the present long-arm mirrors with short-arm ones. You probably should be able to get away with replacing the present long-arm mirrors with medium-arm ones and still get an adequate view rearwards, but the only way to prove this would be to do it. (You’ll notice that roger20 chose to go from long-arm mirrors to medium-arm mirrors because his Auto-Trail Tracker motorhome was narrower than average.) People who have needed to replace damaged Ducato rear-view mirrors and bought less expensive ‘pattern’ mirrors have commented here about what a lottery this can be. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-wing-mirrors/51922/ (As you live in France as well as the UK, don’t forget that - if your Burstner is left-hand drive - its mirrors will differ from those of right-hand drive Ducatos.) As you are concerned about ‘clipping’ other vehicles, I suggest you fit guards on your motorhome’s long-arm mirrors rather than replace them. I’ve fitted the “Mirrorguard” product to my Rapido (that has roughly the same 2.30m width as your Burstner and also has long-arm mirrors) https://www.mirrorguard.co.uk/product/all-fiat-peugeot-citroen-motorhomes-registered-from-2007-with-medium-long-arm-mirrors/ and (although not cheap) the Mirrorguards on my Rapido have taken some heavy knocks without suffering damage. I’m not sure how to interpret your comment “...so I can have clear view of drivers wing mirror without vision obstruction from window pillar, as husband is tall and has seat fully back” If you are saying that, after your tall husband has been driving your motorhome, when you move the driver’s seat forwards to suit your shorter stature, the driver’s wing mirror doesn’t give you a good rearwards view without that mirror being suitably adjusted, I’m doubtful that switching to medium-arm mirrors would avoid that re-adjustment requirement. I’m 5’ 5” tall and my wife is aboyut 5’ 10”. I drive our motorhome, but we share the driving of my wife’s Skoda car. I’m picky about my driving position and I’ve marked the Skoda’s seat runners so I can move the seat to where I want it after my wife has been driving it and I also adjust the mirrors to suit me. My wife is less obsessed with her driving position and, although she does move the seat rearwards (because she has to!) where it ends up varies. She also doesn’t alter the mirrors’ position, but I don’t know if this is because their position is OK for her or she just can’t be bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 John52 - 2020-08-04 8:01 AM But, as long as we have a Prime Minister who would rather spend £900,000 painting motifs on his plane than maintaining the road network, its just something we have to manage with as best we can :-S Pure Daily Mail. The airframe was timed for an EASA heavy maintenance visit know as a 'D' check. Amongst many other things this involves removing the fuselage paint for visual inspection of the fuselage skin. The D check cost for an RAF Voyager/Airbus 330 is just short of £1M and the fuselage then requires repainting anyway, so the choice of motif would add little, if anything, to that cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewolf55 Posted August 4, 2020 Author Share Posted August 4, 2020 Thanks all, as Mike suspected Burstner probably ordered a batch of Ducato base vehicles with the Long Arm Mirrors regardless of the habitation dimensions. We are fortunate enough to have a Car/ Van/ Light truck/ HGV spares and service depot 30 mins away (Its huge), so the plan is for Mike to take Genevieve over there and speak to his mate in the parts department and get a look at the medium and short arm versions. Thanks again, Sarah xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 For info these are the respective dimensions, short, medium and long arm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-08-04 8:13 AM I’ve fitted the “Mirrorguard” product to my Rapido (that has the same 6.30m width as your Burstner and also has long-arm mirrors) ....are you sure you're not driving your 'van sideways, Derek? ;-) Derek Uzzell - 2020-08-04 8:13 AM I’m not sure how to interpret your comment “...so I can have clear view of drivers wing mirror without vision obstruction from window pillar, as husband is tall and has seat fully back” The bar down the "middle" of the driver's window can obstruct the view through the door mirror, depending on seat position. I just about get away with it on my (narrow) Exsis with long-arm mirrors, (as, though I'm tallish, I find positioning the seat a notch forward is the most comfortable) but the view would definitely be better with medium arm ones. Whilst it isn't a listed Hymer option, I do recall reading a comment by someone that they had ordered an Exsis with medium arm mirrors - frankly, though I can live with the current ones, they would be a rather better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Shewolf55 - 2020-08-04 10:02 AM Thanks all, as Mike suspected Burstner probably ordered a batch of Ducato base vehicles with the Long Arm Mirrors regardless of the habitation dimensions... Historically, Bailey has made motorhomes that were unusually wide for the European market, but even their "Compact" models at 2.35m width are wider than the more common 2.30m maximum. For a 2.30m wide Ducato-based coachbuilt motorhome, although the long-arm mirrors will stick out a fair way, the upper mirror section does provide an excellent view rearwards, while the lower mirror section provides a good view close up and downwards. As far as I'm aware (at least for Continental European-built Ducato-based 2006-onwards coachbuilt motorhomes) all models with a width of (say) 2.20m to 2.30m will have the long-arm mirrors. This is not because it's easier for the motorhome manufacturer to 'standardise' on the long-arm mirrors, but because - for that vehicle width-range - those mirrors provide the optimum rear view of the Ducato three available mirror arm lengths. Before the Rapido I owned a similar-width Ford Transit-based Hobby motorhome, and it was a joy to have the Ducato's large long-arm mirrors instead of the Transit's smaller narrower mirrors. Don't waste your money (the cost of genuine Fiat medium-arm will not amuse you) - just fit Mirrorguards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-08-04 11:15 AM Historically, Bailey has made motorhomes that were unusually wide for the European market, but even their "Compact" models at 2.35m width are wider than the more common 2.30m maximum. The Bailey Compact has grown in width over the years - in the owner's manual of the time (a document which I have because it was common with my Autograph) it is stated as 2.12m mirrors folded, which incidentally is the same width as an Adria Compact (which might have been a better example of a narrow van given the lack of ambiguity about its width..). A quick look at pictures on the web will show it to be visibly narrower than 'the common 2.30 maximum' and approximately the same as the Adria (IMHO). By the way, in the 2020 Adria brochure the pictures of the 2.12m wide Compact range show it to have short arm mirrors (which of course doesn't mean that is what would be supplied). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 In the UK Moto-Trek builds several coachbuilt motorhome ranges, with the widest being 2.25m http://www.moto-trek.co.uk/ and I'm pretty sure that none of these have the long-arm mirrors. It's not that Sarah's Burstner's long-arm mirrors could not be replaced by shorter-arm mirrors, just that it would be costly (particularly if genuine Fiat mirrors were chosen), possibly problematical, and there would still be the potential for the replacement mirrors to be damaged by vehicle impact. Given the Burstner's body-width, I believe mirror replacement would be an expensive mistake - but Hey, I ain't paying,.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 As I’ve said above, my (left-hand-drive) Rapido has a body-width of 2.30m and has the Ducato long-arm mirrors. Logically, if one looks forwards from the rear of a motorhome along its side, the full area of the external rear-view mirror should be visible. If any part of the mirror is ‘masked’ by the bodywork, there must be some reduction in vision. I stuck a piece of masking tape on the ‘arm’ of each of my Rapido’s mirrors so that, when I looked along the body’s side, I could just see the edge of the tape, and I then measured how shorter the arm might be and still leave the full area of the mirror visible. For the left mirror (driver’s side in the Rapido’s case) the arm could be about 30mm shorter, and the arm of the right mirror could be about 40mm shorter. So, for my Rapido, if I fitted medium-arm mirrors, the right mirror should still be fully visible from the rear and about 10mm of the inner edge of the left mirror would be ‘masked' by the motorhome’s body. It’s stating the obvious perhaps, but the Ducato X250/X290 mirror is '2-part’. with an upper flat glass and a lower convex glass, and the closer in the mirror is, the less ‘view’ the convex glass will provide. Coastal Motorhomes lists 52 mirror-related items relevant to a 2007 Ducato and the listing may give some idea of the potential cost of a long-arm to medium-arm replacement exercise. https://coastalmotorhomes.co.uk/body-exhaust/mirrors.html?limit=36 Mirror fitting process described here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewolf55 Posted September 2, 2020 Author Share Posted September 2, 2020 Hey guys, that you so very much for all your help. Just had our second trip out in our van - with the seemingly extra stick out length - wing mirrors and I think Mike's happy to keep them now. We drove down to the Pyrenees - a throw in the deep end - drive for hubby, especially after his scary narrow roads drive into coastal roads of the Northern Brittany beaches! Two weeks of stunning views and mainly 'free' aires; even the wing mirrors were no problem along the extremely scary high mountain roads (albeit, a few close calls with jutting out cliff walls). Proud of hubby, did so very well and I think he could drive almost anywhere now. I now have to learn to drive it - in a lorry carpark! - not going out on the roads just yet Sarah xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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