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Fiat Ducato Model year 2020.


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A Women club Member asked me for advice on the comfortmatic gearbox. Buying a new VAN. I said never drive one. But said most comments are not that all positive on driving and maintenance. It is a semi automatic who requires handling when in D- driving position. She do not understand but go for it and a weeek ago she came up whit a wonderfull Cartago- Malibu. She will report to me later on the gearbox. She drives 2019 model.Seeing that fiat comes up whit a 9 speed new gearbox fully automatc, and new engine just 2.3 and a lot more is frustrating if you now buy My 2019. But that is the way it goes.
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Comments on the revised 2020 Ducato were provided here

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/fiat-reveals-new-ducato

 

and there’s more here

 

http://www.fiatprofessionalpress.co.uk/press/article/fiat-ducato-my20-pricing-and-specification-announced

 

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2019/fiat-ducato-my20/

 

https://vans.honestjohn.co.uk/van-news/new-vans/2019-07/driven-2019-fiat-ducato-professional-23-140ps-automatic/

 

A 2019 model-year Fiat UK price-list quoted £1700 (VAT-excluded) for the Comfort-Matic transmission option, but I don’t know what Fiat’s UK list-price is for the 9-speed automatic gearbox (nor what motorhome converters will ask!!)

 

It will be interesting to see what motorhome converters do about the smart alternator and what motorcaravanners’ attitude will be if 2020 Ducatos have a standard TPMS that is resistant to tyre-pressure alterations by owners.

 

 

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One thing I would like to know - Who makes the Automatic Gearbox ? - There are gearboxes and gearboxes and presumably Fiat are buying them in.

 

It is high time that Fiat brought this in - I've always felt that comfortmatic was a bit of cludge so that Fiat could say "and we have an automatic" in our range as well. Put together out of the parts bin with the electronic wizards getting together on a Friday afternoon to see what they could concoct. - They kind of got there.

 

We are on our second "comfortmatic" - it has matured a bit and the 2017 model we have is undoubtedly better than the 2014 model we had before which left us stranded on the M6 with no drive, I am not a fan although it does the job adequately - , and I need an auto because my left leg is full of pins.

 

I think we'd go for one next time around - but I would like to see it released and used in anger out on the road, - get some mileage in, - and then see if they remain problem free. -

 

For Adria I understand the new gearbox isn't going to be homogulated into the motorhomes until December 19, they are going to do the PVC's first - So at a guess they are 9 months to a year out before we could get our hands on one - euro 6 b engine - moving up to euro 6 d engine - and of course they will need ad-blue.

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Tall_Mike - 2019-07-10 2:52 PM

 

One thing I would like to know - Who makes the Automatic Gearbox ? - There are gearboxes and gearboxes and presumably Fiat are buying them in.

 

I've read (can't recall where) that it's the ZF HP9 as already used by BMW, Land Rover, Jeep and a number of other marques.

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It was suggested to me that the Euro 6d Ducato would be around 40kg heavier than the 6b version due to the AdBlue equipment. I have chosen to get a 130 "6b" version rather than go for (another) all new, un-proven version - possibly one of the last, as the Carado was built at the end of June. It was also suggested that as well as being heavier, the 6d versions would be more expensive - have to wait until the 2020 brochures come out to confirm both suggestions.

 

The current edition of ProMobil has a comparison test of the new 120 & 140 hp motors vs the old 130 & 150np versions. I have not waded through the article with Google Translate to hand, but noted that the consumptions they achieved in testing were similar for all versions (though the 130 was the least economical) & they seemed impressed with the 120 unit in particular. Also gleaned that the "standard" fuel tank will now be 75 litres, with 90 litres as an option (the previous 120 litre option being no longer available) with the AdBlue tank capacity being 15 litres.

 

Nigel B

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Steve928 - 2019-07-10 4:46 PM

 

Tall_Mike - 2019-07-10 2:52 PM

 

One thing I would like to know - Who makes the Automatic Gearbox ? - There are gearboxes and gearboxes and presumably Fiat are buying them in.

 

I've read (can't recall where) that it's the ZF HP9 as already used by BMW, Land Rover, Jeep and a number of other marques.

 

A French motorhome magazine comments as follows:

 

A very attractive ‘car’ gearbox

 

The other fundamental addition to the latest generation Ducato is obviously the arrival of a real ‘car’ transmission (which the previous robot-type was not) - a nine-speed torque converter 'box, called 9Speed.

 

Developed by ZF technologists but produced by Fiat, this box is particularly suitable for motorhome use. Available on the three most powerful motors, it is extremely responsive and fluid. No jolts, no annoying delays and perfectly adjusted to the engine torque, it contributes significantly to driving pleasure.

 

Its ‘intelligence’ is appreciated in the most challenging road conditions, in city or in busy traffic, in cases where deceleration and acceleration succeed one another immediately (roundabout, for example) or on the coast or in mountains. What's more, by pressing a button located near the gear-change lever, the driver can choose between three driving modes: Eco, Normal and Power. An efficient gearbox and very well set up, qualities that put it in competition with those of its competitors Iveco and Mercedes and should guarantee a good future.

 

We can hardly imagine buyers of A-class motorhomes remaining faithful to the manual gearbox. But for us, if it were not for the extra cost (from €2800 to around €5,000 depending on the manufacturer) it would be an asset for all Ducato-based motorhomes.

 

In 2013 there was a long forum discussion about the Comfort-Matic transmission

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/150hp-Fiat-Comfortmatic/33156/

 

and I see that I said then

 

There are indications that the robotised manual-gearbox approach may prove to be a technological dead-end, with an eventual return being made to automatic transmissions with a torque-converter, but with several more ratios than was the norm historically.

 

I don’t know how genuinely ’new’ the 2020 motors are. I’ve read that all four motors will have a variable-geometry turbocharger, though that would seem unnecessary for the 120hp powerplant. Descriptions suggest that the 2020 140 is a revised current 150 motor and 2020 160 and 180 engines are revised versions of the current 180 motor. Ducato variants requiring AdBlue have been marketed for several years, so that aspect of the 2020 revisions is not new.

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I believe you are correct - There is little that is really new or revolutionary here- possibly evolutionary.

 

The current engine - euro6-b has a variable turbo which is designed to give extra boost when you go up a hill, - our current van - on this engine, was underpowered and our Fiat dealer verified that the variable turbo was working OK, hence the knowledge - It appears to be, and performance is improving as the mileage increases.

 

Ad-blue isn't new, depending upon opinions, we're lucky not to have it already - one more thing to fill up. Interesting that fuel capacity is less to support the additional weight.

 

I agree that in time - the comfortmatic will be seen as a quant offshoot, over the years there have been various similar things, remember the not so good DAF "Variomatic" which used belts - there is the excellent but complex DCT system, there have been many bodges and clodges in the world of the automatic gearbox, some pretty horrible, some less so. Comfortmatic does the job, it's fairly stable, but not brilliant, I would be wary of owning a 10 year plus vehicle with 100,000 miles plus on the clock with it in place - could be expensive while I would be more than happy with a ZF auto.

 

The various safety devices are out there now, - Lane assist, panic break assist, stability control etc etc, - Fiat are really "catching up" with others. Fiat's main market isn't us motorhomer's - it's for "white van man" and their needs - it just happens that the vans make a reasonable motorhome chassis which must be a nice little earner for Fiat.

 

If ZF have a hand in things, - it's likely to work well, my last 3 cars have had ZF boxes and I've had no trouble - the only concern is "sealed for life", which the boxes are not, I,ve had the gearbox oil changed on each which has done no harm at all and makes them a lot smoother.

 

 

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Tall_Mike - 2019-07-11 12:51 PM

 

...The current engine - euro6-b has a variable turbo which is designed to give extra boost when you go up a hill, - our current van - on this engine, was underpowered and our Fiat dealer verified that the variable turbo was working OK, hence the knowledge - It appears to be, and performance is improving as the mileage increases...

 

Details of the latest (2019) Euro-6d-TEMP powerplants intended for Ducato motorhomes are provided here

 

https://www.fiatcamper.com/en/product/engines

 

All four motors have a 2.3litre capacity and a variable geometry turbocharger (VGT). A 9-speed automatic transmission is available for the 140, 160 and 180 variants.

 

The 2.3litre motor used in Ducato gained a VGT in 2011 when Euro 5 powerplants were introduced. For the UK market three 2.3litre variants were offered -110, 130 and 150 - but only the 150 had a VGT.

 

In 2014 the revised Ducato X290 was introduced with 2.3litre 130 or 150 ‘Euro 5+’ engines. Only the 150 version had a VGT.

 

In 2016 the 2.3litre motors became Euro 6 compliant. There were three versions - 130, 150 and 180 - with the 150 and 180 having a VGT.

 

VGTs are discussed in this Wikipedia entry

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-geometry_turbocharger

 

I’m not sure how one easily checks that the VGT on a Ducato motor is operating correctly or, perhaps more to the point, without putting the vehicle on a rolling-road dynamometer, whether the motor’s performance is what one should anticipate.

 

After taking delivery of our 2015 Rapido, my wife (having known that I’d specified the 2.3litre 150 motor and what the option had cost!) asked “How do you know there’s a 150 engine under the bonnet?” I replied that all the vehicle’s paperwork indicated that a 150 motor was present and there was a “150” badge on the Ducato’s wing. “That still doesn’t prove that this motorhome has a 150 motor.” she rightly observed, “Can you tell if it has one by looking at it?” I said that the motor should have a VGT if it was a 150, but I didn’t know what the VGT would look like. However, driving the Rapido, even from brand-new, definitely felt like it had a 150 motor and that was good enough for me.

 

My only experience of a vehicle with a below-par turbocharger was with my 2005 Hobby motorhome that had a 2.0litre Ford motor with VGT. The motor’s performance had worsened and, when it went in for service, it was evident that the VGT’s internal operating mechanism had stuck in its ‘low power’ position. This was easily demonstrated without any diagnostic equipment being needed and cured by having the turbocharger cleaned internally. This was a well-known problem with the VGT fitted to the 2.0litre Ford motor, but I’m not aware of similar problems with the VGT on Ducato 2.3litre powerplants.

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Very good point - How do they check? and arrive at this conclusion.

 

- We have the 150 on a euro 6 b engine, thus we do have the VGC, whereas our old van - a 130 on a euro 5 did not.

 

In discussion with Fiat, they told me they had encountered issues with turbo hoses and connectors, either wrongly connected, - missing brackets and clips, or simply leaking, coming from the factory that way, I know they checked that everything was set up as it should be, - they can also read the ODB port - presumably any turbo errors might be reflected there, and they test drove it.

 

A little dismayed that our van has a DMF - another thing can be hugely expensive if it says goodnight although in an auto situation it should be fairly well protected from wear and tear.

 

We have the Adria XL which has the frontal area of a shed so don't have (or even want) great expectations but need to be able to make adequate progress.

 

What was noted is that the euro 6 b engine is horrendously tight when new, I have never come across an engine so unresponsive, - lucky to get 50 mph going up even the gentlest of gradients however at the 5000 mile mark it's getting a fair bit better, - and i,m told it takes up to 15,000 miles to fully derive what performance there may be.

 

I think the b engine is a kind of stop gap, to give euro 6 compliance while they researched and developed a proper solution which has now arrived in the d version , b is fairly strangled by all the anti-emission rules, maybe the HP and torque boost was in recognition of this situation.

 

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The attached image shows comparative torque and horsepower graphs for the Euro 5+ 150 motor (in blue) and the Euro 6b motor (in red). On paper, then, the performance of the Euro 6b motor should be superior to that of the Euro 5+ powerplant as the former produces more torque from 1250rpm to 2750rpm.

 

I’ve no compaints about the 150 motor in my Rapido - it’s responsve from low revs and ‘eager’ at high revs. But the Rapido has a manual gearbox not ComfortMatic, and also has 15” wheels that mean the overall gearing is on the low side. I don’t know (without checking) whether your ComfortMatic transmission has the same ratios as my manual ‘box and, if your Adria has 16” wheels, I’d expect that would have a discernible effect on performance.

1081251135_Ducato150motor.png.a36692353feac5dda2d8b5826ac94a44.png

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"I think the b engine is a kind of stop gap, to give euro 6 compliance while they researched and developed a proper solution which has now arrived in the d version , b is fairly strangled by all the anti-emission rules, maybe the HP and torque boost was in recognition of this situation. "

 

AFAIK the differences between Euro 6, Euro 6b and Euro 6d are to do with "Real world driving" - the basic emission levels are the same thoughout, but Euro 6 compliance checking was solely through lab testing as the mobile testing equipment wasn't good enough at the time. With the development of better mobile testing equipment, differences between lab testing and "Real world" testing results were noticed - sometimes substantial (i.e. VW). Euro 6b set a limit of the difference between lab testing & "Real world" testing results (no more than 2.5 x lab results in "Real world" testing IIRC) and Euro 6d has tightened this difference to no more than 1.5x (again IIRC). As I understand it, there will always be a difference between the two test methods due to the different equipment used, hence the tolerance.

 

I asked a few questions about the 2020 Ducatos during a conversation with my MH dealer today - highlights below :

 

When the new engines were anounced, manufacturers had indicated that the 140 engine would replace the 130 as the "basic" specification. At the MY2020 launches, however, the "basic" versions were on the 120 base - assumed to be to to minimise the price rises (to around £2000). There is, apparently, a small weigh penalty with the new engines, though the amount wasn't given. The cost to upgrade to the 140 engine from the 120 will be around £1000.

 

The 9 speed auto box will add around £4000 - but as this box is not available on the 120 engine, there will be at least another £1000 to add to get to a minimum of a 140 engine to go automatic. There will be a weight penalty of at least 70kg for the auto box.

 

Nigel B

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It was reported several years ago that, to meet increasingly stringent emissions testing, Ducato would need to use AdBlue - the only question was when this would happen.

 

Plainly, when an AdBlue tank is included in a vehicle’s specification, the weight of that tank and the AdBlue fluid (15 litres for a Ducato) in it will increase the vehicle’s basic weight unless something is done to offset this.

 

Regarding the weight of the Ducato’s “9Speed” auto-box, Fiat claims that this is significantly lighter than its competitors’ equivalent transmissions.

 

In this French website dedicated to panel-van-conversion motorhomes

 

https://www.fourgonlesite.com/actualite-fourgon/21387-boite-auto-du-fiat-ducato-une-premiere-prise-en-main-convaincante/

 

it is said the 9Speed weighs 18kg, compared to 38kg for the Mercedes Sprinter or 35kg for the Ford Transit. Presumably the 18kg figure equates to the weight penalty over the manual gearbox rather than to the weight of the complete automatic transmission and, if correct, would compare favorably with the ComfortMatic transmission that weighed about 15kg more than the manual ‘box.

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As a former Saab Turbo owner, yes they were good cars, - big shame they went effectively bust, still are nice cars, but difficult to get a low mileage model in good condition these days which is why I changed models.

 

ZF are generally a good solid gearbox maker that power many good models including Jaguar - although “designed by ZF technologists” but “manufactured by Fiat” is a little concerning, Italian manufacturing isn’t known for it’s quality.

 

I can only talk about Adria and I discussed this with them recently, There will be a weight penalty, but at the recent Adria launch day I went to this was recognised, keeping vans under the 3500kg limit and providing a decent payload is challenging, they launched a new range of shorter, sub 7mtr vans. One problem was that the hab doors are 100mm narrower, I couldn’t walk through it without turning sideways, whereas on our van I can. Easier to manage on the road though than a 7.3 or 7.5 mtrs van.

 

As to cost, I guess it will come down to what Fiat charge Adria for the chassis, and what Adria feel they can pass on, auto’s are always more expensive, but a full £5k is a bit salty. I think the d engine is available now on van conversions, but not with auto, - it will be early 2020 before the d engine and an auto is homogulated into Motorhomes, being sceptical I reckon they will hit the road in the UK in q2 2020, - which isn’t wrong for a 2020 model. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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There should be examples of Ducato-based ‘coachbuilt’ motorhomes with Euro 6D-temp motors and the 9Speed auto-box on Continental-European dealerships’ forecourts by September 2019.

 

Price lists can be published surprisingly early and a small-volume German panel-van converter (Bresler) was seemingly able to publish in February 2019 a list that covered the revised motors (120, 140, 160 and 180) and the 9-speed automatic transmission.

 

For a vehicle with the 120 motor as standard, the cost increases for opting for the more powerful motors are as follows:

 

120 to 140 - 775 €

120 to 160 - 2890 €

120 to 180 - 4710 €

 

The cost of the 9-speed auto-box is given as 3332 €

 

(The prices are inclusive of German 19% VAT)

 

In 2014, when I was considering purchasing a Rapido motorhome, a French price list with a publication date of July 2014 was posted on-line relating to 2015 Rapido models, and UK dealerships had 2015-model-year Rapido price lists by September 2014.

 

In 2014 the Rapido UK ‘motor’ price increases were

 

130 to 150 - 1160 £ (2.3litre motors)

150 to 180 - 2240 £ (2.3litre motor to 3.0litre motor)

 

ComfortMatic transmission (for 150 or 180 motor) - 1490 £

 

(Prices inclusive of UK 20% VAT)

 

I ordered in October 2014 and took delivery in April 2015.

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monique.hubrechts@gm - 2019-07-17 7:28 PMAny- way The  Time is running fast Enjoy your present one. And have a look at your own teeth in stead of gearbox. :-D

Monique is this like ascertaining the age of a horse by counting its teeth or is google translation up to no good?
cheers,
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