davidmiller66 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Hi All I know this has been done to death but I believe my draught is different to those explained by others. Last winter I used the van most weeks but in low temp (say below 10 degrees), the cab draught gets so bad that I can't use the van. The draught can be felt when the heat on and is blowing, when you put your hand very near the floor between the driver and passenger seats. It's so bad that sometimes the heating can't raise the general temp above 18 degrees or so. The draught originates from under the dashboard both drivers and passenger sides. No particular spot, just all the way across. Now the weather is cooling we've experienced this again. It's as though the draught is coming through the heating system. Fiat nor Highbridge can find any fault they say. I tried turning the heating to internal only. Made no difference. Also bought expensive window screens. Again no difference. I've even had to check into a hotel in the past because I couldn't stand it. I have a temp sensor and one evening found the floor temp in the kitchen area at 22 degrees, under the table 14 degs and in the cab foot wells it was 3 degs! It was 0 degs outside. Has anyone else experienced this? Is this typical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 This would be my main suspect in an X250 coachbuilt http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Draughty-cab-X250/37749/ ...but you may have eliminated the possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmiller66 Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Robinhood - 2016-10-05 10:20 PM This would be my main suspect in an X250 coachbuilt http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Hints-and-Tips/Draughty-cab-X250/37749/ ...but you may have eliminated the possibility. Thx RobinHood. Some may be coming from the seats but most (if not all) is coming from under the dash. Maybe I'll look at the seats if I manage to fix the dash originated draught. Thx again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmiller66 Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 UPDATE: As the weather was 10 degrees outside, I decided to try and see if could stem the draught (as I can easily feel it at this temp). I switched the heating on and when the blowers were on full whack, I lifted the bonnet and put some cling film over the ventilation inlet. A big hole about a foot wide and six inches high. The cling film was immediately concave and being drawn in. Clearly the draft source is the ventilation system. I understand that this is not supposed to happen as the ventilation system is supposed to close off and seal when the engine is switched off. Can anyone confirm this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I’m not aware that the passageway between a Ducato’s under-bonnet ventilation inlet and the vehicle’s interior should automatically seal when the motor is stopped, though logically it should seal if ‘internal air recirculation’ is selected via the relevant dashboard knob. I note your comment "I tried turning the heating to internal only. Made no difference...” but you might want to experiment with your cling-film test after you’ve selectd internal air recirculation. If the cling-film still goes concave with the heater-fan running, it’s fair to assume the passageway hasn’t closed. Can’t say I’ve noticed serious draughts in the cab of my 2015 Ducato X290-based motorhome, but I don’t use the vehicle in very cold weather and there are heavyweight curtains that can be (and are) pulled across in front of the cab-seats to seal off the front of the cab from the living area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 We have had both and X250 and an X290 and both have been draughty and cold in the cab area when stationary especially when the heating is on. It is a well known problem and the cold air comes from beneath the cab seats through the chassis which is below the seats. When we were at the Birmingham show, before we purchased our present MH we went to the Fiat stand and had a chat with the reps and when I asked about these vents being on the new X290 range they didn't know so the rep and myself got on our backs under the cab chassis and there they were - still these large rectangular holes with a fabric flap on them. I was told that these vents are there for when the cab has a solid bulkhead behind the driver and it allows air to 'escape' when either of the cab doors are closed but of course this style of cab is few and far between in the commercial world. The AutoTrail Owners Club website has an article on this problem and the following is an extract :- Draughty Fiat cab? Do you suffer from draughts in the cab when travelling? I am sure the answer is yes. The Fiat X250 cab (2007/2014) was basically designed for use as a delivery cab for vans, trucks etc. with a smallish cab area separated from the load area. The cab is designed to allow fresh air to enter the cab through the dash vents, the fresh air then has to escape from the cab to keep maintain the circulation. The 'outlet' for the now, not so fresh air is situated on the near side of the cab behind the passenger seat and can only be located from under the vehicle. It is a plastic grille with a soft rubber membrane that opens and closes depending on the vehicle speed, the faster you go, the wider it opens, the bigger the draft, the colder your legs are! Fiat produce a blanking plate to replace the outlet grille and is really effective in reducing the drafts around the cab. It is simple to change, being a snap fit and is also cheap to purchase from your local Fiat dealer (under £3 + vat) The grill is situated on the nearside just forward of the gas locker and about 12" upwards. You can see it if you lie just under the edge of the van, you can reach it and change it without having to jack the vehicle up. As always make sure the handbrake is applied and the wheels are chocked if venturing underneath the van. The pictures below show the original grill, the replacement blanking plate and the part number/ description. This ATOC article is a few years old now but the problem still exists on the X290's. We have a large blanket that we put across the cab just behind the seats which drapes to the floor and it works and the heating feels so much better but in the cab footwell area it is 'freezing'. Another area where there is a severe draught is the footwell where the habitation door is - beneath the floor on the bottom step, there is a huge 'drop vent' with mesh on the underside. Who designs these things ! As for why the cling film is being sucked in across the air intake under the bonnet, I have to agree that something can't be shutting off properly when the cab air system is set to re-circ. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 AlanS - 2016-10-12 9:11 PM As for why the cling film is being sucked in across the air intake under the bonnet, I have to agree that something can't be shutting off properly when the cab air system is set to re-circ. Alan I wonder if it works like the re-circ flap on our Merc? It relies on vacuum to hold it in the re-circ position which is all very well but when you turn the engine off the vacuum fades and the flap opens! I thought I was being really clever engaging re-circ before turning the engine off every time until one day I opened the bonnet shortly after to find the flap open. A quick bit of experimenting proved it would not stay shut! Is a Fiat the same? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QFour Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 The Swift we had was very bad and SWMBO used to wrap her legs in a 12v heated blanket. The air from the great cavern in the back is cold so when you switch the heater on the warm air it produces rises and the cold air from the back rushes in to replace it. We tried numerous ways to get warm but without success. Then we bought a Pilote MH. Same Cab but we could have the heating on while on the move. This warmed the air up in the back and went some way to solving the problem. We now have a Laika A Class MH and what a difference. We can have the heating on in the back and it has hot air blowers under the front seats and also a heat exchanger so the heating system can run off the engine heat if required. Twin front blinds ( Yes Two ) keep the cold out from the large front windscreen. Depends on the type of MH you have wether you can have the heating on in the back when on the move. Most of the Uk built ones don't allow the electrics to be on when on the move. Our Swift certainly didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 QFour - 2016-10-12 10:17 PM ...Depends on the type of MH you have wether you can have the heating on in the back when on the move. Most of the Uk built ones don't allow the electrics to be on when on the move. Our Swift certainly didn't. It’s quite possible that motorhomes built by major UK manufacturers still have a relay that prevents certain 12V habitation-area services (eg. reading lights, 12V hob/oven igniters) from operating when the motorhome’s engine is running, but it’s unlikely nowadays that gas- or diesel-fuelled appliances that are designed to provide ‘en route’ heating will have been deliberately disabled. The following 2016 Swift motorhome handbook covers this on Page 63 https://orbit.brightbox.com/v1/acc-jqzwj/Swift-Group/handbooks/pdfs/000/000/257/original/2017-Swift-Group-Motorhomes-Handbook-web.pdf?1473845551 Of course, if the motorhome has a gas-fuelled ‘en route’ heating system and the motorcaravanner religiously turns off the gas supply before driving the vehicle, the system won’t be able to do what it’s designed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmiller66 Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Everyone, many thanks for your input so far. Regarding the idea of putting a blanket 'curtain' between the dash and the seats, we have done similar. We managed to put a large quilt over the seats down to the floor and tuck it in. As described, we also found it was 'freezing' on the dash side. It's a great place to chill the wine though! Seriously. Of course, after 30 mins the cold spills over the quilt anyway. Today I took the van to the dealer to be serviced. 1 hour drive with the outside temp 8 degrees. I noted that even though I had the heater on 'footwell only' on the dial, it was not hot air coming out. Tepid at best. This, as opposed to the chest height vents which blew nice and hot. So I've asked for it to be checked out at the service. I'm guessing this is maybe indicative of the problem draught coming from the footwells and bad seals. Secondly I noticed that the air was cool between the passenger and drivers seat near the floor. Certainly cooler than the footwell expelling air. This can only be due to cold air coming up through the seats. So the above explanation regarding the 'air outlet' under the passenger seat is highly plausible. I'll check this out when I get the van back and I'm highly hopeful that is a contributor to the problem. In conclusion, I think I have two problems, one from the footwells probably caused by some kind of fault with the heater seals/vents and secondly from the seating 'outlet'. Again, I really really appreciate your help so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Thank you davidmiller66 and Robinhood for raising the question and providing a solution at least to one source of the droughts. We have a 2015 Chausson Welcome 717 so virtually the same as the OP's van. Although I can't say it is as bad as described it does get much colder in the cab area so I have just investigated and, sure enough, there is the ventilator that Robinhood spoke of. The one on the (UK) passenger side is blanked off but the one on the drivers side (french passenger side) is still in use as a ventilator. The van is going in for its first service tomorrow so I have taken note of the part number and will get the blanking plug as soon as possible. Thanks again - wouldn't have known about it otherwise. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snail Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Hi all does anyone know if this would still apply to a hymer a class? We do get cold air in front areas Thanks snail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmiller66 Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 david lloyd - 2016-10-23 10:26 AM Thank you davidmiller66 and Robinhood for raising the question and providing a solution at least to one source of the droughts. We have a 2015 Chausson Welcome 717 so virtually the same as the OP's van. Although I can't say it is as bad as described it does get much colder in the cab area so I have just investigated and, sure enough, there is the ventilator that Robinhood spoke of. The one on the (UK) passenger side is blanked off but the one on the drivers side (french passenger side) is still in use as a ventilator. The van is going in for its first service tomorrow so I have taken note of the part number and will get the blanking plug as soon as possible. Thanks again - wouldn't have known about it otherwise. David Hi David Lloyd - I'd be most interested to hear if the service engineers support the blanking plate being fitted and there are no issues with ventilating the cab while under Diesel or gas en route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I shouldn't think there will be David as there is no bulked like a delivery van and the rear saloon has forced ventilation through things like the roof vents as part of the coachbuilt design so natural airflow is built in for safety reasons. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 David Hi David Lloyd - I'd be most interested to hear if the service engineers support the blanking plate being fitted and there are no issues with ventilating the cab while under Diesel or gas en route. Using gas on route ?? We always make sure the gas is turned off before driving. and that there is no gas in the pipes! What happens in an accident? At least with gas off , you only have to worry about gas in the bottles. Why do they make you turn gas off , when using the tunnel? SAFETY PJay I would sooner freeze than Fry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 PJay - 2016-10-24 9:42 AM David Hi David Lloyd - I'd be most interested to hear if the service engineers support the blanking plate being fitted and there are no issues with ventilating the cab while under Diesel or gas en route. Using gas on route ?? We always make sure the gas is turned off before driving. and that there is no gas in the pipes! What happens in an accident? At least with gas off , you only have to worry about gas in the bottles. Why do they make you turn gas off , when using the tunnel? SAFETY PJay I would sooner freeze than Fry! Hi Pjay It may be that davidmiller66 has the secumotion gas system fitted which, in the event of a traumatic rupture to any of the gas system, is supposed to close the gas supply. For me it's not too bad as our van is fitted with the Truma diesel/electric system so can be used on diesel whilst in motion. In practice, I have to say we have never felt the need to use it yet - even last year on the way back from Spain in heavy snow! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmiller66 Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 PJay - 2016-10-24 9:42 AM David Hi David Lloyd - I'd be most interested to hear if the service engineers support the blanking plate being fitted and there are no issues with ventilating the cab while under Diesel or gas en route. Using gas on route ?? We always make sure the gas is turned off before driving. and that there is no gas in the pipes! What happens in an accident? At least with gas off , you only have to worry about gas in the bottles. Why do they make you turn gas off , when using the tunnel? SAFETY PJay I would sooner freeze than Fry! Hi PJay I share your concern! :) I actually have diesel heating en route. But there is the option (Swift Kontiki) that uses gas instead of diesel. I guess the safety system referred to is in play there. Anyway, fundamentally I am interested in if there is an issue with the ventilation with the blanking plates - David Lloyd says not and I agree with the good man. Besides I have detectors in the van as standard (like all new ones do I think). All in all, it looks like I need to check out these blanking plates. I can't wait to get the van back to take a good look - sad or what!! :) Best David M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 A couple of thoughts into the mix: The cabs are made of metal and glass, and are far less insulated than a car cab so there is a substantial loss of heat by conductivity between the outside world and cosy world. Our door pockets (Fiat 250) has at least 20 x 4mm vent holes to allow something to vent, wether it blows or sucks I don't know. I some times have a urge to take the pocket and trim off, and investigate if there is any insulation in the cab doors. I open the door, take a look , then lose the will! An A class may be better as it has less doors and better insulation, but still has acres of glass in contact with the outside world. Finally, Fiat from warm Italy, probably thinks that a cab heater enough for one man and his Spinoni , is sufficient to heat a volume of a Motorhome behind the cab area. Not too much forward thinking there. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BnJ Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Until recently we had a 2012 fiat based coachbuilt and sure enough there were the 4 inch rectangular rubber ventilation “flaps” as previously described, which I duly replaced with “closed” ones from fiat. We now have a fiat based 2016 van conversion and it was my intention to do exactly the same as before, however after crawling under the van .... no rectangular 4 inch ventilation “flaps” or even “closed” ones at all like the previous coachbulit. Needless to say I spent some considerable time looking, not just in the same place as before (in line with the fuel filler point behind passenger door), but all under the cab area and half way back into the van area. The only things I could find that were anywhere near similar, were a small “2 inch” circular hole with a rubber bung in each, on either side of the van in a chassis member close to the area where the previous coachbuilt had the 4 inch rectangular ventilation “flaps”. So I’m wondering, have Fiat dispensed with them on the vans used for conversion, or have they moved them, because I spent some time yesterday crawling around looking for them. Anyone else have the 4 inch rectangular “ventilation flaps” closed off or not, on a 2016 Fiat van conversion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Just an update on these chassis ventilation flaps/blanking plates. When I had the service done a few weeks ago (Fiat approved servicing agent rather than Fiat Professional garage) they had tried obtaining the blanking plug from the main Fiat Professional dealer in Darlington without any success. Several phone calls to them drew a blank - so to speak. Back home I rang North East Truck and Van at Billingham and, using the part number given above, was able to get the right part. It is easy to fit, just prise out the ventilator from the chassis member and replace it with the blanking plate which has a rubber seal around it to stop water ingress. Just have to see if it stops some of the cold draught now. Just one other thing - the blank is now £7.82 + vat. Our van is a 2015 X290 chassis so it seems it is the same part for that or the X250. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanS Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 David Well done. So that I don't have to crawl under our MH (that's being very lazy isn't it !) can you tell me how many you purchased because when the 'parts manger' looked it up on the computer screen with me we thought there might be 4 outlets ? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 AlanS - 2016-11-16 5:59 PM David Well done. So that I don't have to crawl under our MH (that's being very lazy isn't it !) can you tell me how many you purchased because when the 'parts manger' looked it up on the computer screen with me we thought there might be 4 outlets ? Alan Hi Alan, on my Chausson there is one either side (roughly in line with diesel fill point) but the near side one already had the blanking plate in situ so I only needed to replace the one on the offside. As they are supposedly to help let air escape from a cab with a fixed bulkhead when the door is slammed shut I wouldn't expect to see more than these two - but, anything could be possible! They were easy to find and you really only need to lay on your back and get your head and shoulders under the van to have a look. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Your post got me thinking Alan, as I didn't check along the full length of my chassis which I have quickly done and can confirm there are only the two vents. However, if these vents are there to let the air out of the cab when the door is closed then it may also be required in the rear of a van derivative with a fixed bulkhead for when the rear doors are closed and this may well explain why your local,parts manager found 4 for the Fiat Ducato on the system. Also, my motorhome differs from a standard panel van in that it is built on the motorhome specific (wider rear track) chassis. Only one way to find out for sure Alan..............is it going to be a dry day? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 A couple of days ago - out of curiosity - I crawled under my LHD 2015 Ducato X290-based Rapido 640 to check for these vents. The Rapido is built on Fiat’s camping-car chassis and I confirmed that there was a grille with ‘flaps’ on the right-hand side (ie. on the passenger side in my motorhome’s case) with a plastic blanking-plate in a similar position on the left-hand side. (No grilles or blanking-plates elsewhere.) I’ve read the above comments and what’s on other forums, but has the purpose of the grille-with-flaps ever been established for certain. I can’t see it being effective as a means to ventilate the chassis box sections, and I would have thought it would not be necessary to aid cab-door closure (a Ducato is hardly a hermetically sealed luxury limousine). This leaves the contention that the grille is there to allow air to flow through the cab’s ventilation system on panel-vans where the cab is closed off from the load area by a bulkhead. That sounds OK, but the grille is pretty small and I would have thought that, even when the cab is ‘closed’, air would find its way out without any difficulty. And why is the grille always on the passenger side? This link suggests that Ducato panel vans have grilles at the very back http://www.ebay.it/itm/MOSTRINA-1355707080-ORIGINALE-FIAT-NUOVO-DUCATO-SR-6859-/322173776182 While this link advises that the complete grille unit needs to be removed in order to fit the blanking-plate http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/438220-x250-fresh-air-intake-cover.html All academic where my motorhome is concerned as Rapido has exploited the grille to run electrical cabling out of the cab to feed mysterious conversion-related thingies. The cables obstruct most of the grille’s area, though I think the lower flap might still open a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Do the earlier Fiat / Peugeots have similar 'flaps'? My 2006 Autocruise has druaghty cab. It is built on a Pug chassis/cab so would have had a completely enclosed cab originally. Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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