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Gas Dilemma


HymerVan

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I am shortly taking delivery of a new "Fifer" PVC and hope to take it to Europe for a couple of months. The Fifer has 2 x 3.9 Calor cylinders. Space/water heating is by diesel and electricity. Fridge runs on electricity.

Gas is for cooking only. Assuming we boil a kettle twice a day and cook one hot meal a day does anybody have any idea if 2 x 3.9 is likely to suffice for 60 days. If not it seems likely that the refillable route will not work as the locker aperture(28cm wide x 33cm tall) is not big enough to take a refillable bottle, even 6kg Alugas.

If we do need to buy gas in Europe would it have to be Campinggaz 307 ? Appreciate it is expensive !

What fittings would we need to connect 307 to our regulator ?

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Your gas locker opening is 330 H x 280 W

The Calor 3.9kg propane cylinder meaures 340 H x 240 D

Gaslow 6kg cylinder measures 460 H x 246 D

 

Is there enough height within the compartment to 'tip' the Gaslow 6kg cylinder to get it in and put on the tap (the Gaslow site suggests a minimum of around 491 H to allow for the connection)? or are you going by the measurements you've been given for the opening without seeing it 'in the flesh'?

 

 

 

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Could you use the 4.5 kg Butane cylinders? Using 4.5 bottles would give you another 1.2 kg of gas and may well allow you to last for the 60 days that you mention.

 

We take a 7 kg butane and it lasts us for 60 days. This is based on a small amount of fridge use, no heating use (diesel), making hot drinks and cooking one hot meal a day.

 

Gas use is a personal thing and it really depends on how you live your life in your van, but we manage with some gas to spare. It would not be possible if we had to run the fridge a lot and to guard against this we also take a 4.5 kg butane.

 

Never had any problems with the gas not vaporising; but then we are not winter users.

 

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The dimensions of a Calor (propane) 3.9kg bottle are Height=340mm x Diameter=240mm.

 

The dimensions of a Campingaz 907 (butane) 2.75kg bottle are Height=250mm x Diameter=202mm.

 

Assuming that your new Fifer will have the now-UK-standard bulkhead-mounted 30mbar gas-regulator, then probably your best bet would be to have a suitable length (450mm or 750mm) BUTANE ‘pigtail’, a butane-to-propane pigtail adapter, and a butane-to-Campingaz adapter.

 

Examples from the Gaslow range are shown here:

 

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Gaslow_450mm_Butane_S_Steel_Gas_Hose.html

 

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Gaslow_Easy-Fit_Adaptor.html

 

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Gaslow_Campingaz_Adaptor.html

 

I’m going to suggest that you opt for a stainless-steel pigtail to minimise the (small) risk of gas condensate damaging a rubber pigtail. However, if you do take the stainless-steel pigtail route, you’ll need to be careful about the pigtail’s length. These metal-core pigtails are less flexible than the rubber sort, so – to obtain a comfortable curve between gas-bottle and regulator - you may need a longer stainless pigtail than if you used a rubber one.

 

The thinking behind the above is that, to swap between a Calor 3.9kg bottle and a Campingaz 907 (the largest capacity available), you simply swap the “Easy-fit Adapter” for the Campingaz adapter.

 

Based on Mel’s data for your gas-locker opening, you’d be wise to assume that (other than the Campingaz 907 canister) no other ‘foreign’ gas bottle would fit through that opening.

 

Not sure if 7.8kg of propane would last for 60 days. I wouldn’t like to chance it myself, so I suggest you take a full Campingaz 907 bottle with you as well just in case. That would give you 10kg of gas and, if you managed to get through that, you could always exchange the Campingaz bottle for another one.

 

Campingaz bottles are pretty expensive to buy (and not exactly cheap to exchange), so it might be worth seeing if you can pick up a redundant empty one in this country (e-bay, car boot sale, local recycling centre) and exchange it for a full one before going abroad.

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Have you thought about using electric hobs/cookers (if you intend to stay on sites) and do without gas?

 

We've been in Spain since last year and have managed with a 200W slow cooker and a 1200W ring. You don't even need a 10A supply for those two and we've not had to pay extra for leccy.

 

 

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If gas is only for cooking and kettle., is it possible to use an electric kettle?If you go hook,up very usable , best to get a max 1000 w one.

One way of saving gas , is to put all spare HOT water into a Thermos flask/jug

PJay

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Info and suggestions are all very helpful thanks.

We will use Electric Kettle and Remoska (electric pan/oven) when on hook-up however we use aires quite a lot and wattage on sites is often very low. We will try to assess gas usage on our "shakedown" trip(s) to try to assess whether we are likely to have a problem. Looks like partial Camping-gaz option may prove to be the most practicable solution if we do.

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HymerVan - 2012-03-04 7:12 PM

 

Looks like partial Camping-gaz option may prove to be the most practicable solution if we do.

 

If you are willing to accept Camping Gaz (which is butane), why not give my suggestion of using two x 4.5 kg butane Calor Gas cylinders a go? Two such cylinders will give you 9 kg and if we can get by on one 7 kg clyinder (as described above), you would seem to be in with a good chance (and you can presumably take along some Camping Gaz as well).

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Thinking about this again, using a 907 with adaptor will not be too bad, our last van took two 907 bottles and gas was used purely for cooking/kettle and gf's hot water bottle, each bottle would last several weeks, sorry can't remember how long, but I guess your two 3.9kg bottles will nearly last long enough and then swapping to 907 wouldn't be much of a hardship. In fact if it was me I'd use a 3.9kg bottle then swap to 907, if/as that runs out I'd do temp swap to 3.9kg until getting new 907, this way you'll always have gas with only one 907 bottle.
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Why not forget about calor and just have 2 Camping Gaz 907s? That is what we always did with British vans with tiny gas lockers.

 

You can then obtain refills anywhere in Europe, cheaply in some countries, the downside being that you could have a problem if the temperature in the locker gets near to freezing. As your heating and fridge don't use it, it wouldn't be a big problem anyway, as you could soon heat a cylinder to get the gas flowing.

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You could calculate your available gas capacity:-

 

Assuming you use Propane. Read the tare weight off the bottle ring. Divide tare by 2.204. That gives you the tare weight in kgs.

 

Weigh your bottle (kgs) and deduct the tare weight. You now know the weight of gas in the bottle.

 

Multiply gas weight by 13.9 to determine gas capacity in kW hours (kWh)

 

I guess your oven won't be much different to my Spinflo which is rated at 3.1kW, so, very roughly for example, 2.2kgs of gas should keep you going for about 10hrs at top heat setting. Similarly, if you have a 3 ring hob and run it at full belt, you'll get about the same amount of time from the same weight of gas because each ring will be about 1kW.

 

 

 

 

 

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T8LEY - 2012-03-04 10:45 PM

 

You could calculate your available gas capacity:-

 

Assuming you use Propane. Read the tare weight off the bottle ring. Divide tare by 2.204. That gives you the tare weight in kgs.

 

Weigh your bottle (kgs) and deduct the tare weight. You now know the weight of gas in the bottle.

 

Multiply gas weight by 13.9 to determine gas capacity in kW hours (kWh)

 

I guess your oven won't be much different to my Spinflo which is rated at 3.1kW, so, very roughly for example, 2.2kgs of gas should keep you going for about 10hrs at top heat setting. Similarly, if you have a 3 ring hob and run it at full belt, you'll get about the same amount of time from the same weight of gas because each ring will be about 1kW.

 

Thank you for that info.

 

 

 

 

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Guest JudgeMental
I would not have a diesel heater, have heard stories re reliability and noise, and warranty problems from a reliable source.. You would be better of with a normal 3 way fridge, truma combi space and water heating and under slung gas tank....A bit surprised you were not offered more options, aren't these custom built campers
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"I would not have a diesel heater, have heard stories re reliability and noise, and warranty problems from a reliable source.. You would be better of with a normal 3 way fridge, truma combi space and water heating and under slung gas tank....A bit surprised you were not offered more options, aren't these custom built campers"

 

Judge in response to your points, the heater to be fitted in the Fifer “M” is a Webasto Dual-top which works on diesel and electricity. The Dual-top was designed in Germany specifically for motorhome use. The boys at East Neuk are quietly very proud of their product and I think have considered very carefully both the design and the component selection. Consequently I am quietly confident it will be fine, and certainly googling “Webasto heater problems” didn’t exactly fill my screen. As for the fridge it is tempting to imagine that a compressor fridge is selected to lower costs and simplify installation however the fridge is a quality product backed up by an 80w solar panel and a 240 watt (I think) leisure battery. In other words a suitably well engineered combination, something which cannot neccesarily be said of some more mainstream products offering compressor fridges without power resources. Compressor fridges are virtually maintenance free and relatively cheap to replace. How many people can honestly say that they faithfully follow maintenance regimes for their three-way fridge despite it being a gas appliance.

Fifers are not bespoke and the option list is short mainly I think because it is so well specced to begin with. That said they have been completely receptive to incorporating tweaks to suit individual preferences. For example ours will have the galley style without an oven because we don't want one.

I don’t work for East Neuk I am just an enthusiastic customer and I hope I still will be once I get and use my Van !

 

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colin - 2012-03-04 9:36 PM...In fact if it was me I'd use a 3.9kg bottle then swap to 907, if/as that runs out I'd do temp swap to 3.9kg until getting new 907, this way you'll always have gas with only one 907 bottle.

The best advise so far, but a slight variation.

1 x 907 and 1 x 3.9kg Calor propane bottle. 

Use the 907 as the main source switching to the Calor bottle if you run out of Campinggaz (until you buy a replacement) or in very low temperatures where the butane won't gas off.

All bases covered with no fretting about rationing usage. Downside is that it'll bit a bit more expensive but factored into the cost of 60 days on the road, pretty insignificant.

Diesel heaters are better now than they were 10 years ago and are, in some travelling circumstances, a superior solution for space and water heating than LPG. It depends on your style of travel and whether they compliment or otherwise the other equipment on board. LPG is pretty useless if it 'auto-gums' your system or if you have to spend days running round trying to find a bottle / regulator / pigtail that will fit. It's also relatively bulky, heavy and dangerous.
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Test reports for the Fifer Touring M and Touring L on are available in the Motorhome Reviews section of this website.

 

Fifer cooking facilities are gas-fuelled, with a two-burner hob and (as standard) a SMEV 20-litre oven/grill. Gas is not employed other than for cooking. As HymerVan has explained, the 85-litre fridge is the compressor type and water/air heating is provided by a Webasto “Dual Top” diesel/230V unit. The fridge and heater will demand significant leisure-battery capacity and East Neuk’s website indicates that a 180Ah leisure battery, 18A battery-charger and 85watt solar panel are standard.

 

Gas storage is given as 2 x 3.9kg bottles and, logically, for someone living in North Scotland, those bottles should contain propane. It would be possible to fit 2 x 4.5kg (Calor) butane instead, but the number of litres of gas in the bottles would not increase, you’d just have a heavier gas in the same volume canisters. I don’t know whether using a 30mbar regulator and (around) 15.5 litres of butane, rather than the same volume of propane, would make enough of a difference to ensure there’d be enough gas for a 60-day trip abroad, but I wouldn’t take the risk myself.

 

The basic problem with relying on only having UK bottles (in this case 2 x 3.9kg or 2 x 4.5kg) that can’t be exchanged abroad is that, if anything goes wrong – like a bottle develops a fault, or the gas system leaks and wastes gas – you are going to have to fall back on to Campingaz. At which point, you’d need to a) find a Campingaz vendor and b) obtain the necessary parts to allow connection to the Campingaz canister. This would be at best a nuisance and, at worst a real bugbear.

 

Plainly there are options…

 

1: James suggests 2 x Campingaz bottles, but then you’d have just 5.5kg of butane with every chance you’d need to exchange at least one bottle during a 60-day trip.

 

2: You could have one Calor bottle + one Campingaz bottle, with both bottles securely housed in the Fifer’s gas locker.

 

3: You could have 2 x Calor (3.9kg or 4.5kg) bottles in the gas locker, plus one Campingaz 907 bottle stored elsewhere in the motorhome for ‘emergency’ use.

 

Option 2 is probably the most attractive, as Option 3 would mean that, if you had to bring the Campingaz 907 bottle into play, you’d have an empty Calor canister to store in the vehicle somewhere. And, of course, it’s not the greatest idea to store gas bottles (whatever their size) outside the gas locker. Crinklystarfish’s suggestion of using the 907 as the primary source makes good sense.

 

I’ve always considered East Neuk models to be eminently sensible, with a particularly well-balanced specification. 3-way fridges are much more complex (and dearer) than compressor fridges and installation is much simpler (and draught-free!). Gas-fuelled ‘combi’ heaters have hardly been trouble-free historically and will require either large gas bottles or an expensive refillable reservoir. I’d also delete the oven, but the only other specification change I’d be considering would be to replace the halogen spot-light bulbs with LED equivalents.

 

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+1 with "crinkly".

 

This is an approach I took in my early days of motorhoming with 'van conversions with small gas lockers.

 

Simply take Derek's advice on the required pigtail and converters, and you have just about all the flexibility you need.

 

Having said that, for up to three weeks abroad with this arrangement I never had to exchange a bottle, even with some use of the fridge and heating. Using a hook-up minimises gas use, particularly for the fridge, which is otherwise virtually a full-time demand. I wouldn't be surprised, given your professed usage, if two 3.9kg propane just about lasted you sixty days.

 

If you initially go with the hybrid propane and 907, however, it will give some peace of mind, you can test demand, and if this lasts out, switching the 907 to a second propane will give somewhat more gas, and at a cheaper price.

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The quality and helpfulness of the responses highlights what a great resource this forum can be so thanks very much to all contributors.

 

At the risk of sounding like a commercial for East Neuk I was down on Friday looking at my new van in the early stages of being built. There are some minor improvements for 2012 including improved access to the N/S underbed locker, a better cutlery drawer and an bigger leisure battery. Its a "Banner" in its own dedicated locker (easy access for servicing) and is I think 240W.

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HymerVan - 2012-03-05 10:01 AM

 

...Its a "Banner" in its own dedicated locker (easy access for servicing) and is I think 240W.

 

Assuming that it's a Banner "Energy Bull" battery, it's likely to be a 230Ah one (next one down in capacity seems to be 180Ah).

 

If you ever need to lift it out of its locker, you might need to have eaten several Weetabix first though, as the 230Ah Energy Bull weighs some 63kg.

 

Should keep your fridge and heater going for a while...

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Guest Tracker

Our Starlet uses gas to cook and for the fridge and we find on average a Calor 6 kg propane lasts about 3 weeks or so which is no help to you I know - but this is how we go about organising our gas supply!

We have a total of three 6 kg bottles so it easy to make sure that we leave home with two full ones in the locker and we always carry a full Camping Gas 907 with adapter sealed and stowed elsewhere just in case one clogs or leaks away - and yes it does happen occasionally - usually at the most inconvenient time and place!

We have only ever needed the backup once but as that was in Sweden we were darned glad to have it available to us without the need to source and pay for it in Sweden.

Most of our bottles came from dealers when we bought a van and perhaps East Neuk may have a bottle or two and even maybe a pigtail and adapter from a trade in van they might let you have - won't hurt to ask them nicely?

Diesel heating is very good when it is good but a real pain in the proverbial when it fails as it is very hard to find a good Eberspacher engineer and I would imagine that Webasto service people are even more thin on the ground so it would pay to carry a low wattage mains voltage fan and/or convecter heater as a backup.

We also carry a spare regulator and pigtail because regulators can clog - never happened to us - yet - and so can pigtails - especially those with the non return valve in one end.

Belt and braces never harmed anyone - especially in foreign parts - and as most of our spares came FOC it is just case of storing them tucked away in a remote unused corner of the van - but do beware of becoming paranoid?

And then we come to water hose and tap adapters - but that's for another time!

Good fun innit!!!

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks again for all contributions to this thread.

I now have the Fifer and am very pleased with it. The gas locker takes 2 x 3.9 propane but there is no room for the CampingGaz 907 Cylinder as well. We will monitor gas consumption before we go to Europe in case we think that the two propane will last but most likely we will travel with 1 x CampingGaz 907 and 1 propane. The neccessary fittings as recommended by Derek Uzzell have been purchased and everything works (except the Gaslow "turnwheel" connection to the propane cylinder) Unfortunately the turnwheel fouls with the cylinder itself a problem no doubt only for the 3.9 cylinder.

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