Habitation Gel Battery - are they cheaper in Spain?

[Matrix Meanderer]

Staying on aires during our drive south to Spain has shown that our habitation battery is on its last legs, not holding the charge very well. It will last until we get back to the UK.

 

Does anyone know if gel batteries are cheaper in Spain or should I just wait until I get home?

I'm looking for a 110Ah battery.

 

In the UK I've heard good reports about Tayna Batteries of Abergele, north Wales.

Any other recommended suppliers please?

Thanks

 

[StuartO]

I happen to have a surplus two year old Exide G80 gel battery and I live in Suffolk, 40 mins from Bury - send me a PM if you really want a bargain.

[Derek Uzzell]

Matrix Meanderer

 

If you can hang on until you get back do so.

 

It would be most unlikely that you could source a suitable gel battery in Spain cheaper than you could obtain it in the UK (and there are also potential warranty issues to bear in mind if you bought abroad).

[aandncaravan]

If your battery is tired and you carry on using it you risk damaging the mains charger and Alternator.

 

I would suggest a 110Ah Gel would be high cost and quite rare in Spain, even from an Exide Dealer, probably £230'ish? The usual battery box size on a Motorhome takes an 80Ah Gel, a 110Ah Gel battery is usually too big to fit?

 

Tayna batteries at Abergele are good.

 

Edited Update :

Just looked on Tayna website and an Exide ES 1200, 110Ah Gel is £258, 40 kilos weight and 286 x 269 x 230

The Exide ES900 (G80 as was) 80Ah is £175, size 353 x 175 x 190

[Derek Uzzell]

The November 2017 MMM review of an Adria Coral Supreme S670 SLT quotes its leisure-battery as 100Ah capacity, but does nor say what type it is or where it is housed. However, this MHFacts thread

 

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/83-adria-motorhomes/154274-adria-insisting-gel-batteries.html

 

suggests that Adria was standardising on gel leisure batteries in 2015 when Matrix Meanderer’s motorhome was apparently buillt.

 

(Bit worrying that the Adria’s battery is failing after so short a time...)

[Matrix Meanderer]

Thanks for all the replies. Our Coral was new in June 2015 so the battery has been used for 31 months. The dealer did not fit a gel battery despite an Adria label in the battery position instructing to fit one.

I'm disappointed that the battery is losing its charge after one night off grid. All lights are LED and we use LPG for fridge, heating and cooking. The voltage dropped to 10.1 v, which is when I started the engine. This didn't amuse our German neighbours at 07.30am ??

I'll certainly wait until we get back to the UK and maybe get a good price at the Peterborough show.

Regards from sunny Vilanova Park.

[Derek Uzzell]

If Adria had intended that your Coral motorhome be fitted only with a gel leisure-battery, there’s the possibility that Adria set up your motorhome’s battery-charger to produce a gel-battery charging regimen and this has contributed to the early failure of the non-gel battery the dealer installed. This is something that should be checked before you replace the battery and, if your present battery’s electrolyte-level is checkable, it would be wise to check the level without delay. Also, don’t overlook Allan’s warning about continuing to use a failing battery,

 

Received wisdom (on another motorhome forum) is that Adria’s choice of ‘gel' is because the leisure-battery on (some of) their motorhomes is housed in an unvented position within the vehicle’s habitation-area. Gel batteries do not need to be (cannot be) fitted with a vent-tube and are completely maintenance-free (so battery accessibility can be largely ignored) - consequently Adria specifying a gel leisure-battery makes logical sense.

 

If your Coral's battery is in an unvented part of the habitation-area and it’s practicable to fit a vent-tube to the replacement battery, it seems to me you might as well opt for Allan’s favourite Varta LFD90 90Ah battery, rather than pay significantly more for a similar-capacity gel battery (or, of course, explore StuartO’s offer).

 

As long as you have decided exactly which replacement battery to purchase by the time the Perterborough Show takes place in late-April (and your present battery survives till then!) you MIGHT be able to find that battery well-priced at the Show. But if you know the battery you want, you might be able to source that battery locally to you at a good price or from an on-line retailer. At least you would then be sure of getting the battery.

[aandncaravan]

We would always recommend you buy a battery from a Specialist battery retailer, not a Motorhome/Caravan Dealer who may not turnover battery stock as quickly as a specialist.

 

Some batteries do not age well, suffering severe degradation that they don't recover from. Important any battery is fresh.

 

'Shows' are often used to sell off old stock cheaply. Suggest you are careful that any battery you buy isn't already aged and degraded.

 

 

If your battery dropped right down to 10.1v it would have suffered further, severe damage in doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

[Matrix Meanderer]

Thanks for the advice. Tomorrow we'll be on a site for 2 weeks so I'll be able to have a good look at the battery and the control box set up.

The battery lives inside a seat box by the habitation door. Voltage has stayed around 13.3 volts so no drastic drop.

Good point to buy from specialist battery supplier not show stand.

 

[Matrix Meanderer]

Reason for problem found :-S

 

Checking the battery and the Nordelettronica NE237 control box settings, I found that the charging profile (little switch on the box underside) was set to "GEL"

 

So I guess what has happened is that the Adria factory set the control box to GEL because they instruct dealers to fit GEL batteries.

 

Our UK dealer however fitted a Lucas LSLC85-12 lead acid sealed battery but did NOT change the switch to "Pb" from "GEL". A cost saving procedure for them but a costly earlier than expected replacement cost for me :-(

 

Needless to say I've changed the setting to "Pb" and will change the battery when I get back to the UK . We are mostly on EHUs on the way back.

 

Moral of this story is - if the dealer has not followed the manufacturer's instructions then double check the related settings.

 

Thanks for all the hints and tips which on this occasion identified the reason for the early battery failure.

[Keithl]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-12 4:12 PM

 

If your Coral's battery is in an unvented part of the habitation-area and it’s practicable to fit a vent-tube to the replacement battery, it seems to me you might as well opt for Allan’s favourite Varta LFD90 90Ah battery, rather than pay significantly more for a similar-capacity gel battery (or, of course, explore StuartO’s offer).

 

Got to repeat Derek's question and ask, seen as you have a Pb setting, would it not be cheaper to fit a Varta (or similar) VRLA?

 

Keith.

[Tracker]

Just because a van is 'new' at first registration does not mean it is new.

 

Sometimes the unknown pre sale period can inflict all manner of abuse and damage on an assumed new battery severely reducing it's life and it is only when non ehu nights are experienced that the problems come to light by which time the dealer will probably blame the user.

 

I too have only good experiences of Tayna and I too would endorse the buying of a battery from a specialist with a high turnover of stock rather than caravan or motorhome dealer or a show where the pile 'em high and sell 'em a bit cheaper concept does not appeal for a battery of unknown history and dubious warranty.

 

Battery Megastore have also been very good but as with Tayna I have never needed to make a warranty claim so cannot comment on that aspect.

 

Years ago I would have been taken in by thinking a battery is a battery is a battery, but now thanks mainly to this forum, I know different!

 

A battery, like tyres, is not something that I would skimp on cost.

[aandncaravan]

Matrix, I thought the Lucas LSLC85-12 was a poor quality AGM battery, not Gel or Wet, and that might explain your batteries poor 2 and a bit year life?

 

In our experience, and contrary to the advertising blurb, AGM's do not have very long lives in Motorhomes.

 

While we don't think a charger with either a Gel or Wet setting will suit an AGM battery (which requires a higher 14.7v charge rate) there was restricted thinking three years ago that a Gel battery setting was an 'adequate compromise' for a AGM battery, hence your charger being set to Gel?

 

Fortunately that thinking has changed and all battery manufacturers specify an AGM optimised charger must be used. Some AGM manufacturers even going so far as to print the charge profile voltage on the battery casing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matrix Meanderer]

aandncaravan - 2018-01-15 3:33 PM

 

Matrix, I thought the Lucas LSLC85-12 was a poor quality AGM battery, not Gel or Wet, and that might explain your batteries poor 2 and a bit year life?

 

In our experience, and contrary to the advertising blurb, AGM's do not have very long lives in Motorhomes.

 

While we don't think a charger with either a Gel or Wet setting will suit an AGM battery (which requires a higher 14.7v charge rate) there was restricted thinking three years ago that a Gel battery setting was an 'adequate compromise' for a AGM battery, hence your charger being set to Gel?

 

Fortunately that thinking has changed and all battery manufacturers specify an AGM optimised charger must be used. Some AGM manufacturers even going so far as to print the charge profile voltage on the battery casing.

 

Very good point, yes this is indeed an AGM battery. In fact the dealer has just responded to my complaint pointing out that they expect no more than 24 months out of these batteries. He says I've done well to get 31 months out of it 8-)

 

This is an even better reason to buy a good gel battery and hopefully get 5 to 7 years life out of it when used mainly on EHU overnights.

 

Many thanks for your helpful comments.

[Brian Kirby]

Matrix Meanderer - 2018-01-15 1:50 PM................................

Our UK dealer however fitted a Lucas LSLC85-12 lead acid sealed battery but did NOT change the switch to "Pb" from "GEL". A cost saving procedure for them but a costly earlier than expected replacement cost for me :-(

 

Needless to say I've changed the setting to "Pb" and will change the battery when I get back to the UK . We are mostly on EHUs on the way back.

 

Moral of this story is - if the dealer has not followed the manufacturer's instructions then double check the related settings. ........................

Under your circumstances I think, on return, I'd be talking initially to the dealer, and also to Trading Standards/Citizen's Advice.

 

In effect, you have paid for a (expensive) gel battery that was not fitted, and then had the (cheaper) inferior substitute battery damaged by the dealer's incompetence. The dealer remains liable on both counts, despite the time that has elapsed since you bought the van.

 

The dealer may wriggle and claim you've fiddled with the charger setting, or abused the battery (or both!). However, he can hardly argue with the physical evidence that the battery fitted did not comply with Adria's instruction, and you had every right when buying to rely on him having complied. On the face of it, it seems you have been cheated.

 

Have you removed Adria's label? It shouldn't make a difference either way, but it would rather be game, set, and match if it were still there (or you've kept it, or have evidence of it's existence).

 

Of course, it may have been a mistake on the dealer's part, so it would be reasonable to give them a chance to make amends.

 

Otherwise, subject to the advice TS and/or CA give you, you should be able to get a judgement against the dealer for the difference in value between the battery fitted and that which should have been fitted, plus compensation for that portion of the gel battery's reasonably expected life in normal use that was lost due to a) the substitution of an inferior battery and b) his failure to set the charger to pb instead of gel.

 

You have had a bit over two years use of the battery, and I would expect a decent quality gel to last about twice that time (some may say longer), so the difference in cost between an Exide G80 and a Lucas LSLC85-12 in 2015, plus half the cost of a new Exide G80 at todays cost (because that is when you are having to buy it).

[Robbo]

Brian - as far as I know, when using AGM batteries without an AGM charging regime, it's recommended to use the Gel setting.

 

This was the recommendation I received from Roadpro when I bought AGM batteries from them in 2013. They didn't last very long and replaced them after 2 years. An expensive mistake at about £200 each :D

[Derek Uzzell]

The Lucas LSLC85-12 battery is described here

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/LSLC85-12-Lucas-Sealed-Battery-P8186.html

 

It’s worth noting its dimensions of 260 mm(length) x 160mm(width) x 233mm(height). This is a shortish, narrowish but tall battery (with unusual terminals for vehicle-related applications). I’ve no idea if the physical size of the Lucas product is critical where Ian’s Adria is concerned, but there’s liitle point discussing the relative merits of (say) an Exide G80 or Varta LFD90 battery in the (probably unlikely) event that they won’t fit in the Adria.

 

It has to be said that, unless there ARE dimensional limitations, the Lucas AGM battery is an odd choice. This size/type of battery seems to be aimed at golf buggies and it is possible to obtain similarly-priced gel and AGM versions.

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/70Ah-85Ah-Golf-Batteries-G503.html

 

In would be interesting to know why the dealer fitted a ‘golf buggy’ battery to Ian’s Adria motorhome. I fitted a Banner AGM battery to my Hobby motorhome when its original Exide gel battery failed and I could not decide whether to select ‘gel’ or ‘pb’ for the Banner. Banner’s literature advised ‘gel’ (and still does) and I discussed the issue with Banner and CTEK representatives. As there seemed to be no consensus I eventually chose the ‘pb’ setting as I thought it was lower risk. (I sold the Hobby not too long after so I don’t whether that choice was good or bad.)

 

Plainly if Ian’s dealer had installed a gel battery, not an AGM one, the charger’s ‘gel’ setting would have been uncontroversial.

[Matrix Meanderer]

Thanks for comments from Brian and others.

As mentioned the dealer is saying they expect about 2 years life for this battery, the same as the Adria mechanical warranty. The vehicles are imported without a habitation battery, the UK dealer supplies and fits that.

I have no idea (apart from cost saving) as to why the dealer fitted the Lucas battery, but they clearly did this for all new Adrias in 2015.

My battery compartment is limited but it will take the Exide ES950 G85 Gel battery recommended by Tayna. So that's my plan. Hasta la vista

8-)

[aandncaravan]

Brian, I am not sure the Dealer would have considered he was fitting an inferior battery.

Three years ago there was a big song and dance about AGM batteries being the next big thing for Motorhomes. A couple of motorhome manufacturers switched to them from Gel.

 

Back then, the cost between a Gel Exide G80 and an AGM would have been small, but an AGM would probably have been slightly more expensive

 

Only more recently have the limitations of AGM's in Motorhomes been accepted, following many premature failures, like the Lucas one above.

I am guessing that the Dealers response of 2 years life might also be an indication that they don't last as long as was being claimed at the time?

 

 

Matrix, If you think you need a Gel battery, suggest you read our 'Battery Technology' and 'AGM batteries' webpages, as they list the limitations of Gel, batteries, one of which is a slower/longer recharge time.

But more importantly, given your recent trip abroad, is shorter life if used in high temperature (over 25 degrees) environments and premature failure if large currents are taken out or put in. Not suited to use with an Inverter.

See : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/agm-batteries.php

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Ian has said that his Adria’s leisure-battery compartment is limited in siize, but it apparently will accept an Exide G85 gel battery that has (Tayna-quoted) dimensions of 330 mm(length) x 170mm(width) x 232mm(height).

 

It may well be the case that in 2015 Ian’s dealer was fitting the Lucas LSLC85-12 AGM battery to all new Adria motorhomes, but if Adria was specifying in 2015 that a gel leisure-battery be installed, the dealer’s action would have disregarded Adria’s instruction.

 

Putting aside the gel/AGM issue, the Lucas LSLC85-12 battery is still a peculiar choice. There have been instances where a motorhome converter fitted an odd-shaped battery into a small space - Swift installing an AGM battery on its side beneath a cab-seat springs to mind. But if Ian’s Adria’s battery compartment will accept a 175mm-wide battery (which I’m guessing it will) there are/were several suitable alternatives to the Lucas product. I’m reluctant to say this, but I (and I’m pretty sure Allan and Brian too) would have asked “What the hell’s this strange AGM battery doing in my new Adria motorhome?” and “I don’t believe that Adria would approve use of this battery.”

 

It’s obviously up to Ian how he progresses this with his dealer and which replacement battery he gets. There are ‘dimensional’ deep-cycle alternatives to the Exide G85 (eg. from the Trojan range) but I don’t know if they would be any better.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Derek, I mostly agree, but remember 3 years ago, an AGM battery was new and almost all those available were Stop Start Engine batteries. I didn't come across a main stream specific Leisure AGM at the time.

Even the Banner Running Bull AGM battery started off life as a Stop/Start engine battery and it was only the marketing that changed..

 

Therefore to a Dealer, a Deep Discharge AGM Golf cart battery, which was also being marketed as a 'Marine/Leisure' fitment, would have maybe appeared a better option than a Stop/Start engine battery, as the common perception back then was that a Starter battery was not a good idea.

Especially as many perceived at the time that Gel and AGM were : 'the same, but AGM was better'.

 

I obviously don't know what went on, if the Dealer had fitted a budget Wet acid battery, then I would be inclined to think they acted improperly.

But they fitted an AGM battery, that at the time was more expensive than Gel and being put about as the 'Bees Knees' and superior to a Gel. They maybe also mistakenly thought that the Lucas brand stood for quality.

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I’m not convinced by that argument.

 

Ian said earlier "The dealer did not fit a gel battery despite an Adria label in the battery position instructing to fit one”. If the dealer decides to ignore the label and fit a short, narrow AGM ‘golf-cart’ battery, this goes against Adria’s advice. It doesn’t really matter what the dealer’s opinion is about the wonders of an AGM battery, it’s still not what Adria said should be chosen. I’ve made plenty of well-meaning mistakes, but just because they were well-meaning did not stop them being mistakes.

 

Forgetting the dealer’s involvement, given that there now seems to be a battery size-limitation if the replacement battery is to go into the same compartment in Ian’s motorhome as the original Lucas battery, would you recommend that he sticks with his Exide G85 choice?

[aandncaravan]

Derek, The OP seems to really want a Gel battery, so I assume he has a usage requirement that fits the particular characteristics of a Gel more than any other technology.

So without knowing the type of use the battery gets and how deep it gets discharged it is hard to advise.

 

However, with the limitations a Gel battery has, and with a cost of £180 for 85Ah, it wouldn't be my choice.

 

I would suggest that because the battery size and type is 'out of the main stream', the turnover of such a battery may be very low. Likely to have sat on the shelf a while and may have lost a fair bit of life.

A good idea might be to take a multi-meter with him when he buys one and checks the voltage is at least 13 volts?

 

One battery retailer was telling us they sell more Varta LFD90's than any other habitation battery, almost as many as all the other makes put together. As a result the 'slower movers' hang around a lot more than they used to.

More important than ever to check that 'new battery' really is what the retailer says.

 

 

[Matrix Meanderer]

Thanks all for your contributions, the AGM or Gel battery article was particularly interesting.

 

We seem to have gone round full circle now to a question of which is the better habitation battery for my circumstances and the location of the battery within the MH.

 

My habitation battery sits in a compartment with the control box and solar panel regulator in a seat box in the lounge area.

 

We spend most nights on EHU and do enjoy temperatures over 25 degrees C external temperature in France in the summer. Temperature in the lounge area can go over 30 degrees fairly often in summer.

 

So I definitely need a sealed battery with no fumes and one which will withstand the summer temperatures.

 

As my charger offers lead or gel charging profiles, maybe I'm best to go for the cheaper lead acid battery given the advice not to take a gel battery over 25 degrees C. *-)

 

Finally, I'm sure that the dealer provided the current Lucas battery in good faith. They are a major Adria dealer and sell major other brands as well, they have a high turnover and I have only had good service from them.

 

So - final suggestions "lead" or "gel"?

 

:-(

[aandncaravan]

If you spend more than 50% of your time on EHU than off it, then you are unlikely to benefit from spending a lot of money on a Gel battery.

 

However, most Lead Acid batteries expel explosive and corrosive gas which apart from the danger will seriously impact any electronics in the same compartment. Most require some maintenance, others lots of maintenance.

 

The advanced Powerframe technology used exclusively by the Varta LFD90 and the Bosch L5 batteries, does not gas at all. They are safer than Gel and AGM.

They also have longer life than might be expected from the technical spec. I would guess you will see around 5 years before capacity drops noticeably.

 

Although the Powerframe batteries are Wet Lead Acid, the technology inside endows them with characteristics of far more expensive batteries.

Especially good at extremes of temperature : will start a truck engine in the freezing mid Winter but resist degradation at high temperatures.

They also have one of the lowest self discharge rates of any battery, exceptional electrical flow, zero maintenance, best capacity right to end of life, etc.

 

If they cost £150, they would still be the best in that price bracket, yet they are typically £95.

However, we are hearing rumours of significant price rises due Spring 2018, so don't hang around.

 

Typically battery purchase numbers drop significantly during Winter and then surge in the Spring so try and buy them while it's 'quiet' and the best prices are to be had.

 

Remember to charge a new battery for 24 hours as soon as you can and bear in mind it won't reach full capacity until it has been used a few times.