Help With Schaudt WA121545

[BrianK]

Hello all

 

Complete newbie here hoping for some help from those who know their way around van electrics a lot better than me.

 

I have spent a lot of time reading many of the posts on the forum including the one linked below discusses some of what I require but more especially those posted by Allan of aandncaravans, to pen a phrase more likely to be used by my children what a legend!

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Improvements-to-leisure-battery-charging/50677/

 

The vehicle is a 2014 VW Transporter T5.1 conversion that was already converted when I bought it. Unfortunately a simple 60A split charge relay beneath the bonnet along with a starter type battery for a leisure one achieves very little when driving, probably partly as the van has a smart alternator and regenerative braking.

 

I’m intending to replace the one poor battery with 2 x Bosch LFD90’s placed under the front seats and connected together in parallel.

 

Additionally I intend to remove the split charge relay and instal a Schaudt WA121545 B2B charger (also known as an Intelligent Alternator Booster) to hopefully provide the best possible chance of a good charge as I drive from place to place. I may also want to add solar one day but don’t want to get involved in this at the moment.

 

Installing the actual unit seems relatively straightforward (see pdf linked below) with live and negatives going from the starter battery to the WA121545 and then the same on to the leisure battery. Where it becomes a bit more confusing to me is how the system will integrate with the DS300 Distribution board and CB516 charger. Also there is mention of using a simulated D+ signal in much that I have read, I believe to ensure the starter battery still receives a charge when plugged into EHU but I’m not sure.

 

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/resources/Schaudt%20WA121545.pdf

 

Other specification of the van that may have a bearing are:

 

CBE PC210 Controller

CBE CB516 Mains charger

CBE DS120-S Mains consumer unit

CBE DS300 Distribution board

Waeco CRX 50 Fridge

Planar 2D diesel heater

Having posted this on another forum :$ it was suggested I consider the Redarc BCDC1240D as an alternative to the Schaudt. I would equally appreciate any advice on this as well.

 

Any help that can be offered will be gratefully received

[Alanb]

Brian,

 

Welcome to the Forum. I am surprised to learn that a 2014 VW has an intellegent alternator and regenerative braking. I had thought that these systems were only fitted to more recent vehicles.

 

Given that is what you have, a B2B would seem to be almost essential if you are to achieve adequate charging of the habitation battery from the alternator. The Schaudt seems to be more suited to this application than some of the larger (marine?) B2Bs. However I have recently been reading about an Italian retrofit of a different make of B2B. I will look it up and post on this thread.

 

I am puzzled by your mention of an under bonnet split charge relay, as the CBE DS300 can have an integral 70A split charge relay. I say can, because I have seen published photos of french origin which show a DS300 without split charge relay. There were only two M6 studs (B1 omitted) on that board,

 

Alan

[BrianK]

Hello Alan,

 

Thanks I appreciate any help you can give.

 

I have based the decision of whether I have the smart alternator only on info from third parties so by all means anyone who disagrees chip in. 1) I have stop/start 2) I was told because of the shunt I have on the negative terminal this indicates I have a smart alternator (see pic attached) 3) The relay seems to do nothing at all. However one test that seemed to rock this boat is when I plugged a cig lighter plug into the socket in the front and went for a drive with a multimeter attached and the voltage stayed at exactly 14.18 and only dropped slightly on braking, so nowhere near the 12 point something others speak of.

 

I didn’t know this about the SBE DS300 and guess I could check for the B1 stud, but presume if I do have the mart alternator this wouldn’t help me much in any case? I think the chap who installed it for the last owner is a house sparky!

 

Lastly have you (or other forum members) heard/read anything about the up and coming 105ah version of the Bosch LFD90? I’m not sure where I initially heard this but Alpha batteries have confirmed it is on it’s way by December, only I was wondering if theres’s anything out there confirming the build quality and spec will definitely be as per the 90ah version.

[spirou]

I have not had the chance to completely deconstruct how our (new) van is wired together but it is essentially the same system. I will try and update later today. I will mention there is a new line of Victron Orion DC/DC converters similar to the Schaudt unit but I believe they might be contained in larger boxes so perhaps less interesting for small spaces in a VW.

[Alanb]

Brian,

 

In view of your report of a steady 14.18V, which should be adequate for battery charging, I suggest that you find out exactly what system is insalled in your vehicle. The Schaudt B2B or other B2Bs are not low cost items, and it may be that you could achieve your objective by following the route followed by DavieR. (Larger cables and split charge relay.)

 

Again given your steady 14.18V, is it possible that the item in your photo, is a fuse with alarm wires rather than a shunt? Perhaps a VW expert (I am not) could confirm this one way or another?

 

On the other hand the CBE DSxxx units generate a simulated D+ by electronically monitoring an ignition switch controlled supply, and operate the split charge relay at about 13.6V and above. This monitored supply is made available at a male blade terminal for external use.

 

Alan

[Keithl]

Brian,

 

Just because you have a shunt does not mean you have a smart alternator. Shunts have been fitted for many years to monitor battery performance and utilise 'load shedding' to optimise alternator output and to prevent flattening the battery whilst driving.

 

As your voltage remained at over 14 V I would be fairly confident in saying you do not have a smart alternator. Try monitoring your voltage for a longer drive, say over half an hour or longer.

 

Keith.

[Alanb]

Brian,

 

As promised, and in case you are still interested in B2Bs, the unit mentioned on an Italian forum was a "Votronic". The mversion used was I believe rated at 30A maximum output.

 

Alan

[BrianK]

All input is very much appreciated everybody.

 

I have been on to the main dealer today who supplied the van from new and they checked the system and said I do have a smart alternator. The chap I spoke to said their technician described the smart alternator as charging more on overrun, which I believe means using your engine to brake down a hill or driving on the gears as I call it, which is how I tend to drive a manual rather than breaking a lot. Whether this means it’s worth re-running my test or whether I just accept this advice I’m not sure.

 

Alanb - 2019-10-22 10:50 PM

I am puzzled by your mention of an under bonnet split charge relay, as the CBE DS300 can have an integral 70A split charge relay. I say can, because I have seen published photos of french origin which show a DS300 without split charge relay. There were only two M6 studs (B1 omitted) on that board,

As you you can see from the attached picture B1 in the CBE DS300 hasn’t been used. Also I have attached a pic of the relay under the bonnet.

 

 

 

spirou - 2019-10-23 3:47 AM

I have not had the chance to completely deconstruct how our (new) van is wired together but it is essentially the same system. I will try and update later today. I will mention there is a new line of Victron Orion DC/DC converters similar to the Schaudt unit but I believe they might be contained in larger boxes so perhaps less interesting for small spaces in a VW.

Spirou,

I’m not too worried about the exact size except I’m assuming these units are always going to be best indoors rather than under vehicles or the bonnet, which I suppose does means the smaller the better. Another consideration is that I may wish to add solar in the future, for this reason I’m now wondering if even better than the Schaudt WA121545 might be the Redarc BCDC1240D, the little bit of reading I have done about it suggests it's as tough as old boots and designed for the outback in Australia, and has a solar output included, it is also small enough to possible fit beneath one of the seats with a battery. I would very much appreciate hearing from anyone who has experience of these but currently can’t find a bad word said about them. I guess I could be the guinea pig 8-)

 

 

 

Alanb - 2019-10-23 9:09 AM

On the other hand the CBE DSxxx units generate a simulated D+ by electronically monitoring an ignition switch controlled supply, and operate the split charge relay at about 13.6V and above. This monitored supply is made available at a male blade terminal for external use.

I’m not sure of it’s importance anymore Alan but spade connector FA4 on the CBE DS300 also hasn’t been used, which if my reading today is correct is the simulated D+

 

 

 

BrianK - 2019-10-22 11:47 PM

Lastly have you (or other forum members) heard/read anything about the up and coming 105ah version of the Bosch LFD90? I’m not sure where I initially heard this but Alpha batteries have confirmed it is on it’s way by December, only I was wondering if theres’s anything out there confirming the build quality and spec will definitely be as per the 90ah version.

I have now heard back from John at Alpha batteries concerning this new larger 105ah version of the Bosch LDF90. He has contacted Bosch for clarification on the exact specifications and I will post them here when they arrive with me.

 

[BrianK]

Anyone any idea why one of my pics appear on the page below the text and the other as a link!?

[Keithl]

BrianK - 2019-10-23 3:43 PM

 

Anyone any idea why one of my pics appear on the page below the text and the other as a link!?

 

The forum uses old software and only displays images with a .jpg suffix and NOT those with a .jpeg suffix!

 

Keith.

[spirou]

Simple solution then, just rename the extension

[BrianK]

Keithl - 2019-10-23 3:54 PM

The forum uses old software and only displays images with a .jpg suffix and NOT those with a .jpeg suffix!

Keith.

 

spirou - 2019-10-23 5:10 PM

Simple solution then, just rename the extension

 

Many thanks to you both, I didn’t realise this can be done long after you can no longer edit the text.

[Alanb]

Brian,

 

Please avoid over nesting of quotes. (EDIT: I have tidied up the thread - Keithl)

 

May I sumarise your current situation.

 

1. You have been told that your vehicle has a smart alternator.

 

2. Your own monitoring of base vehicle voltage while the vehicle is in motion, has not confirmed the above.

 

3. Charging of the habitation battery from the alternator is inadequate.

 

4. For ease of installation converter has installed a 60A voltage sensitive relay (VSR), and only partly connected the CBE DS300.

 

5. You wish to upgrade the habitation battery (B2). Use of a starter battery for B2 is OK if you normally use EHU, and the B2 is not deeply discharged.

 

As previously suggested by you, I recommend further investigation of the smart alternator status before undertaking expensive modifications. (In the opposite situation to yourself, Arthur49 was told that his new vehicle would not have a smart alternator. He found that he had a smart alternator.)

 

If you can confirm to yourself that you have a smart alternator, by for instance observing an increase in voltage on overrun, you will not be wasting money on a B2B.

 

Assuming that you do have a smart alternator, with a system voltage lower than about 13V during normal driving, the current charging system may be inadequate. The addition of a B2B would resolve that problem.

 

The late Allan Evans did not like VSRs in their battery coupling form, to the extent that he did on one one or two occasions over react when the term was used in a different context. I do agree that Allan's advice to be wary of VSRs as installed in your vehicle is sound.

 

I suggest that the VSR is installed in your vehicle either because there is no suitable D+ point, or to avoid making the connection. Some intelligent alternator systems provide an artificial D+ for motorhome use, but this can be current limited and active low (0V = charge signal). If you want to fully install a Schaudt B2B, I think that a D+ signal is required, if mains charging of the starter battery (B1) is enabled.

 

As you have stated, the B1 terminal of your CBE DS300 is not connected. This means that you will be unable to display the voltage of B1 on the control panel, and more importantly B1 will not receive charge from the CB516 mains charger.

 

I hope that the above is of some help.

 

 

Alan

 

[BrianK]

Alan / Keith,

 

Thanks for the summary of all of my information and apologies if I messed anything up, I have been computer literate for longer than I care to mention but have only started using forums fairly recently hence not having a clue what I’m doing *-)

 

Ref number 5 above, I’m looking to remain off grid most of the time as the van is my transport for fishing trips and the locations I visit rarely have hookup points in the vicinity. If I could get say 3 days at a time having been plugged in to EHU and fully charged at home I would be reasonably content, even if this might mean running the engine a little more, although I do tend to move each day on these trips and each move is normally half to three quarters of an hour of driving at least.

 

Are there any arguments for having a B2B charger even with standard alternators?

 

Bye the way I have also ascertained earlier today (from the vehicle spec label) that the alternator is 140A which I would imagine is no big surprise to many on here.

 

Alanb - 2019-10-23 9:40 PM

Assuming that you do have a smart alternator, with a system voltage lower than about 13V during normal driving, the current charging system may be inadequate. The addition of a B2B would resolve that problem.

Alan

When I did the test with the multimeter while driving along the voltage hardly changed at all from 14.18 whether I was driving harder, lighter or braking however this was mostly carried out on a very straight road, a dual carriageway, and from what you have said and I have read since it seems worth trying on some more undulating roads.

 

Alanb - 2019-10-23 9:40 PM

As you have stated, the B1 terminal of your CBE DS300 is not connected. This means that you will be unable to display the voltage of B1 on the control panel, and more importantly B1 will not receive charge from the CB516 mains charger.

Alan

I do think the starter battery charges when I’m plugged into the EHU or have I misunderstood what you mean here?

 

Brian

 

[Alanb]

Briank

Alanb - 2019-10-23 9:40 PM

As you have stated, the B1 terminal of your CBE DS300 is not connected. This means that you will be unable to display the voltage of B1 on the control panel, and more importantly B1 will not receive charge from the CB516 mains charger.

Alan

I do think the starter battery charges when I’m plugged into the EHU or have I misunderstood what you mean here?

 

Brian

 

Brian,

 

In CBE DS300, and DS520 based systems there is a facility to charge the starter battery (B1) when EHU. This facility uses a charger live or "S" signal to operate the small (12mm cube) relay at the bottom RHS of the PCB. The associated and adjacent components are a current limiting thermistor (light blue disc) and a blocking diode. With the charger ON, the relay operates and connects the thermistor and diode in series between B2, and B1 terminal studs. It follows that if the starter battery is not connected to B1 (at least when on EHU) this facility for charging B1 cannot work.

 

 

Alan

 

[BrianK]

Thanks again for the help Alan

 

Perhaps my starter battery is just so good that I thought it was being charged too.

 

 

I had a drive of about three quarters of an hour each way today with the multimeter connected.

 

As explained before when driving normally voltage stays at almost exactly 14.18 Volts.

 

I found reasonable hard braking can make voltage go down to about 14.13 temporary.

 

The voltage went down fractionally (to 14.17 / 14.16) when changing down to third, for instance when approaching roundabouts, but didn’t seem to be affected with the other gears.

 

If I hold back on the gearbox only (no touching brakes at all) going down fairly steep hills in third gear the voltage goes down to around about 14.13, then as I change up to fourth once reaching the bottom of the hill the voltage seems to have a further drop temporary say to 14.10 / 14.11 but only for a second or two before going back up to its normal place.

 

So as you can see no major difference at all!

 

Although I must say I'm still tempted by a B2B charger simply if just for the reason that I don't trust the relay.

[Keithl]

Brian,

 

If you do really have a 'Smart' alternator then it is not working how I would expect!!!

 

What type of battery is your starter battery? eg. AGM or FLA?

 

And what is its resting voltage after a minimum of, say, an hour with NO charge or load?

 

Finally how old is it and do you know if it has EVER been flattened below, say, 11 volts?

 

Keith.

 

PS I have spent a considerable amount of time studying BMW's with smart alternators and have seen several 'misbehaving' hence my questions.

[BrianK]

Keith,

 

The battery is lead acid.

 

The resting voltage is 12.83.

 

The starter battery is a Halfords HB110 75ah which was brand new 2 months ago, this I know is accurate as the last owner produced the receipt. I can’t imagine it is old enough to have been flattened that much as I have had the van for nearly a month.

 

Brian

[Keithl]

Thanks Brian,

 

That was not quite what I was expecting to hear but at least confirms that the starter battery is unlikely to be the cause of your problem.

 

Can you get the vehicles Battery Management System (BMS) scanned for codes as this may give a clue as to why the charging voltage is remaining 'high'. For info I would expect to see the voltage drop to below 13 V every time you accelerate and only exceed 14 V when you decelerate (at least this is my experience form testing cars at work).

 

Now a question possibly to Alan, looking at the pic of your shunt there is a fairly large Negative cable attached directly to your starter battery, is this the Negative for your habitation system? If so can anyone confirm this is connected correctly as it seems to bypass the shunt and may be forcing the BMS to constantly charge.

 

Keith.

[Keithl]

Thinking about my final question on the extra black cable attached to the starter battery negative terminal. If this cable is attached to the vehicle chassis at any other point then this will in effect 'SHORT' the shunt and prevent it operating correctly.

 

Can you try disconnecting this black cable, and for safety the habitation battery negative as well, and see if your 'smart' alternator now works correctly.

 

Keith.

[Alanb]

I refer to Keith's two posts immediately above.

 

1. As I have stated previously, I am not a VW expert, and hence I am unable to the question directed towards me by Keith, regarding the connections at the starter battery negative. However I note that there are two additional connections made direct to negative post, and that the lugs used seem to be of an unusual type.

 

2. In his second post Keith partly answers his own question. I was having a smilar thought just before I read that post. It could explain the "normal" battery voltages observed by Brian. Is it possible that the larger cable could have been deliberately added to have the effect that Keith suggests? That is to disable the regenerative braking, and provide a voltage suitable for habitation battery charging.

 

Brian,

 

I am sorry that I may have to cast doubt on your enterprise, but in my opinion you vehicle is not best equipped for you intended use. I suggest this because compressor fridges and diesel heaters are relatively heavy consumers of 12V power. You propose remote camping without EHU, with perhaps only half to three quarters of an hours daily driving. My gut feeling is that the relatively short driving time will be inadequate when it comes to recharging your habitation battery.

 

On a more positive note, while you still have a vehicle system voltage over 14V, you should be able to improve habitation battery charging rates with thicker cables and perhaps a split charge relay. The difficulty with a split charge relay is the lack of a D+ connection, but if you leave the regenerative braking in its current state, you could use the simulated D+ facility on the CBE DS300. To implement this you would require a fused connection from an ACC + point (Ignition controlled), connecting to the DS300 immediately above the white wire on your photo (CBE seem to use a blue wire for the ACC+ connection). With the simulated D+ available, you could remove the VSR from the charging path and connect the starter battery to the DS300 B1 stud via a 50A fuse. For fuses I recommend Strip, Midi, or Maxi Blade fuses. I prefer the latter, as it is easy to remove to make a disconnection. (The maxi blade fuse should have slightly less voltage drop than a standard blade. Small fractions of a volt are important when optimising charging.)

 

The other option is to re-instate the regenerative braking. If you do this you should expect to open your wallet for a B2B system of your choice.

 

Alan

[BrianK]

Keith / Alan,

 

Thanks once again both of you for all the help.

 

The thicker black cable seems to be far less exciting than either of you were expecting, it seems to just go to a daytime running lights module. Presumably this is after market as I can't find anything on the original spec mentioning these, and this cable does look thicker than it is in reality as it’s inside a black sleeve. Oh and you probably realised the thinner cable is to the relay.

 

Is there any chance this cable could be causing this ‘SHORT’ in any case? I haven’t really inspected it yet so can’t say how’s its connected but would imagine it's function is pretty basic.

 

Keith, I’m assuming the BMS scanning needs to be conducted by the likes of a VW garage? Am I likely to still need this in your opinions?

 

I get what you say about the usefulness of the van for my purpose Alan, but I did get almost 2 full days from it recently, with the fridge on continuosly, just from plugging in at home for 48 hours beforehand. And this was with the one ‘questionable habitation battery' (Bosch S5013 100ah), although admittedly I didn’t use the heater on this occasion (but I do tend to be the type who only uses a heater when essential even at home). So my theory was that assuming that driving hadn’t added any charge at all and I’m at least doubling the batteries then I might get three days if I’m lucky, which would be OK. I’m happy enough on this basis unless someone comes up with anything I have missed. And lastly this was why I thought it best to have solar as a possible additional the future too.

 

I’m happy enough to get a B2B Charger and didn’t buy the van expecting not to have to spend any money if I’m honest. I’m still tempted by the Redarc BCDC1240D as it also gives a solar input, unless anyone is of the opinion this idea is flawed in any way.

 

As I’m away at the moment with I can’t get to the van for the weekend.

 

Brian

[Alanb]

Brian,

 

Regarding the choice of a B2B, it could be worth looking at the CTEK D250S. This is what I installed about 3 years ago. It includes an MPPT regulator, and switches solar charge to the starter battery when the habitation battery is fully charged. While Allan Evans did not like the D250S, he did not offer any reason for his attitude.

 

Alan

[BrianK]

Alan,

 

Please don’t take this the wrong way as obviously you and others on here are trying to help in any way you can but there are some manufacturers products I just won’t use through principle like Philips having had several of their razors fail on me and they couldn’t have cared less, in the case of CTEK it was two different chargers they wouldn’t take responsibility for.at the moment I can’t see a better option than either the Schaudt as originally posted or the Redarc BCDC1240D and guess the Redarc still comes out on top just because of the added solar input.

 

Brian

[Keithl]

BrianK - 2019-10-25 7:58 PM

 

Keith / Alan,

 

Thanks once again both of you for all the help.

 

Keith, I’m assuming the BMS scanning needs to be conducted by the likes of a VW garage? Am I likely to still need this in your opinions?

 

Brian

 

Brian,

 

Unless you have access to a scanner significantly more powerful than an OBD engine scanner then a dealer visit may be the only option.

 

I have an Autel MD802 hand held scanner and this seems to imply it can access the 'Battery Regul,' module on VW's 'before 2014'. I have used it on many newer cars (including VW, BMW, Audi, etc.) but never on a T5.

 

http://download1.auteltech.net/Download/Veh/ELITE/Enhanced/VW/en_MaxiDiag_E_VW%20FUNCLIST.pdf

 

The MD802 has now been replaced by the newer MD808 or possibly better still the BlueTooth AP200 dongle.

 

It may be worth trying one if you are prepared to make the investment.

 

Keith.

 

Edit: The MD808 seems to be able to adapt ECU's for fitment of a new battery... http://download1.auteltech.net/Download/Veh/MD808/BMS/Vw/en_BMS_Vw%20FUNCLIST.pdf and 'Before 2014' now becomes 'Before 2015' for 'Battery Regul'.