In Norway & need leisure battery advice

[DavieR]

Feeling a bit stupid asking this but electrics is a bit beyond me at times. Never had a leisure battery problem before though except when one died (was in Dresden then!)

 

Seven weeks into our Norway trip in our new van and it looks like our leisure batteries are not being charged by the vehicle. We have 2 x 110amp Numax batteries. We have been off grid the whole time relying on solar and the engine for recharging. I noticed last night that the batteries were at 12.1v and after several hours driving today (with no solar to speak of) were the same this evening. Using a few LED lights and our Combi 4E heater for 3-4 hours had dropped the charge to 11.5v and we now have a warning light on our control panel.

 

I've checked the 50amp fuse for the split charge system and it looks ok. I don't have a spare one with me.

 

It's not exactly a crisis, it isn't freezing (yet!), we can easily find a EHU and we are making our way home now. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks

[vindiboy]

I once had a problem similar to yours on our vans leisure batteries, it turned out to be a bad connection on a fuse carrier between the solar  panels controller and the batteries, verdigrass ? / green? had built up on the connectors and was preventing full charge, might be your problem too ?

[Alanb]

It is difficult to give any advice without knowledge of the make of electrical control unit installed. e.g. CBE PC200, or Sterling xxx, etc.

 

You have checked the 50A fuse for the split charging system, but the connection to tha vehicle battery should also be examined.

 

You also need to know how the split charge relay is operated. In some vehicles this is by a connection to the alternater D+ wire which connects to the alternator warning light. CBE systems use a different method.

 

As yours is a new conversion, would it not be appropriate to seek advice from the convertors ASAP.

 

Provided that the indicated reading is correct, you have already discharged your batteries to below an acceptable level.

 

Alan

[PJay]

This may be an obvious question, BUT do you have a switch that you switch for charging between 2 batteries, I.E the engine one and the leisure one ? We have on our van, and as yours is new to you ???

Maybe if you go on hook up that will charge your battery .

 

Enjoy the rest of your holidays. It's getting colder here in UK , by the way, and we change the clocks at the weekend!

PJay

[DavieR]

Thanks everyone. Our Control Panel is CBE PC380 and we have as CBE CB 510 Swirch Battery Charger which is switched on ( cannot see any LED/light to signify signs of life).

 

On the Control Panel with the engine running I can see the Battery parallel is on. BUT the " car battery recharging unit" is NOT on.

 

All connections at the battery are clean and secure.

 

As suggested, I have contacted Shire the converters but as luck would have it my emails are down just now!

 

Many thanks

[Derek Uzzell]

My Rapido has a CBE electrical system that includes the PC180 control panel, but I’ve no hands-on experience of the later display-screen PC380 variant (described here)

 

https://www.aboutcampbtob.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/N7_CBE.pdf

 

and I can’t find a handbook for it on-line.

 

Based on my PC180 panel, when the motorhome’s motor has been started, the ‘batteries parallelled’ symbol will indicate that a relay in the CBE DS distribution-box has closed and that the motorhome’s leisure-battery has been parallel-linked to the starter-battery and SHOULD now be being charged by the motorhome’s alternator. I’ve always asssumed that this charging is happening, but (at least with the PC180 panel) there’s nothing to indicate this is actually so, and to check that leisure-battery charging is genuinely taking place would involve using the panel to confirm that the leisure-battery’s voltage-reading is now elevated.

 

The PC180 panel will indicate that the battery-charger is running, but only if a) the motorhome is connected to a live 230V power-supply and b) the battery-charger’s On/Off button is in its depressed On position. The charger’s On/Off button illuminates red when the charger is operating, but obviously won’t light up if the button has not been depressed to the On position or if no 230V power is reaching the charger.

 

When the motorhome is being driven, the battery-charger will not be charging as there’ll be no 230V supply to the vehicle (unless, for a very short time, you’ve forgotten to disconnect the motorhome from the 230V electrical hook-up!)

[Alanb]

Hi Davie,

 

I am not familiar with the PC380, but the PCxxx unit is the display unit for the linked 12V Distribution Board, which in your case will be a DS300. The split charge and fridge relays will be located in the DS300.

 

The fact that the battery coupling icon is displayed indicates that system has detected that vehicle alternator output is sufficient to charge the batteries (engine is running).

 

One of our contributors had a problem with a poor connection between the positive connection at the vehicle battery (B1), and the B1 terminal of the DS300. This resulted in the fridge taking power from the habitation battery (B2), when the engine was running.

 

I assume that you have an Automatic Energy Selection (AES) fridge which will run on LPG overnight. May I suggest that until your problem is resolved, you switch your fridge OFF while the engine is running. As long as the fridge is fairly full, and kept closed as much as possible, this should not cause a problem in your current location, and may help the battery charging.

 

Now please allow me to lead you through the charging path for B2. This typically runs as follows. From B1 positive - B1 50A fuse - DS300 B1+ve terminal - (split charge relay) - DS300 B2+ve terminal - B2 50A fuse - B2 +ve terminal - (Battery B2) - B2 -ve terminal - DS300 -ve terminal - B1 -ve terminal or vehicle chassis.

 

As you have been able to draw power from the habitation battery, B2, I suggest that you check all the connections relating to B1 including those at the DS300. Look for signs of overheating and check that bolted connections are not loose.

 

When working on any battery, standard advice is to disconnect the negative connection first, and remove all metal objects such as metal wrist watches and straps. If you find a loose connection at the DS300 you will need a 10mm spanner.

 

As a minimum precaution remove both 50A battery fuses before working on the DS300. This will put you in the dark, so a torch may be useful.

 

I note that in you vehicle B2, is two 110 Ahr batteries and that your mains charger is a CBE CB510 which has a maximum output of 10A. This is probably because a standard CBE kit has been used.

 

However your charger will struggle to charge your fully discharged batteries and would probably take 24 hours to complete the charge, even at full output. The charger may well overheat. It would be kinder to the charger if you could charge one battery at a time, by disconnecting one battery negative.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

[DavieR]

Derek and Alan, thanks both so much.

 

My panic may be over - hopefully. After changing a 3amp fuse marked with a two battery symbol and described as "to protect the OUT D+ simulated exit" we now have charge from the alternator (this may be just coincidence, I really don't know!). A subsequent two hour drive upped the voltage a bit with 13+ amps charge.

 

We are now on EHU and the battery is being charged - now reading 14v.

 

Just to correct some previous info, our mains charger is a CB 516 model having a max output of 16 amp. Also, our distribution box is a DS520-AN.

 

Alan - thanks again. It took me a while to understand the charging path but I've got it now with the help of the manual I have with me. I'll do a physical check if necessary later on. I can discount the fridge because it's switched off most of the time (keeping things cool isn't an issue here!)

 

Finally, I did ring Shire (isn't EU free roaming great) this morning and they patiently spent 15-20 minutes explaining the system, fuse locations and possible accidental 12v use e.g. are the water tank heater elements on?

 

I'll come back to this if we run into more problems but we will be home soon and we can always find an EHU on the way.

 

Cheers, Dave

 

[Alanb]

Hi Davie,

 

I am very pleased that you seem to have sorted your problem. Thanks very much for your reply. After 11 years of having a vehicle with a CBE PC200 + DS520AN combination, I am still learning!

 

I am familiar with the 3A fuse that you mention - extreme RHS on distribtion board. I had previously and incorrectly as it seems, assumed that the fuse only protected external connections to the simulated D+, and that the split charge relay was connected before the fuse.

 

You will probably now be aware that the CBE system does not use D+ to operate the split charge and fridge relays. Instead an ignition switch controlled nominal 12V supply is monitored for charging voltage level, and then connected to the split charge relay and any external device that requires this control function.

 

You may wish to note that the DS520 is not as common as the smaller DS320, and there is little published info relating to it.

 

Sorry about the chargng path desciption, but producing a sketch, scanning it and then uploading would have taken too long.

 

Alan

 

 

[Don636]

Interesting thread which has made it clear that, if I ever have an electrical problem in the van I am screwed and will just have to call an engineer as there is no chance I could get my head round this lot!!!

[Derek Uzzell]

Alanb - 2017-10-26 8:24 PM

 

...You may wish to note that the DS520 is not as common as the smaller DS320, and there is little published info relating to it...

 

Alan

 

 

Is there a DS320 - there’s certainly a DS300 and a (more complex) DS520, and there’s a PC320?

 

As is warned here

 

http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/distribution-panel-ds520-205210-p-4977.html?osCsid=387ce4c3be64ce03154a77c954071b9b

 

the DS520 may be motorhome-manufacturer-specific with the 2-letter suffix indicating the manufacturer. Not sure what the “AN” in DS520AN means though.

 

(I’ve now noticed that my Rapido User Manual includes guidance on the PC380 control-panel that has some interesting extra features over earlier CBE panels.)

 

 

 

[Alanb]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-10-27 9:27 AM

 

Alanb - 2017-10-26 8:24 PM

 

...You may wish to note that the DS520 is not as common as the smaller DS320, and there is little published info relating to it...

 

Alan

 

 

Is there a DS320 - there’s certainly a DS300 and a (more complex) DS520, and there’s a PC320?

 

As is warned here

 

http://www.marcleleisure.co.uk/store/distribution-panel-ds520-205210-p-4977.html?osCsid=387ce4c3be64ce03154a77c954071b9b

 

the DS520 may be motorhome-manufacturer-specific with the 2-letter suffix indicating the manufacturer. Not sure what the “AN” in DS520AN means though.

 

(I’ve now noticed that my Rapido User Manual includes guidance on the PC380 control-panel that has some interesting extra features over earlier CBE panels.)

 

 

 

Error on my part. For DS320 please read DS300 in my previous post.

 

Thanks to Derek for drawing attention to this.

 

I suspect that the "AN" suffix relates to a non manufacturer specific distribution board.

 

I think that on a Rapido PC200, the button top left of the four to the RHS of the screen controls the awning light. If I am correct the distribution board will probably have to match

 

They are some published functional block schematics of CBE systems, but I would view them critically. One example that I have studied requires the lights to be enabled before you can operate the heating. Testing on my vehicle has proved this to be incorrect.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

[Alanb]

Don636 - 2017-10-26 9:24 PM

 

Interesting thread which has made it clear that, if I ever have an electrical problem in the van I am screwed and will just have to call an engineer as there is no chance I could get my head round this lot!!!

 

Take heart, Davie admitted that some electrics were beyond him, and went on to fix his problem.

 

Incidentally I think you would need to call a technician / auto electrician rather than a professionally qualified engineer.

 

Alan

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

My 2015 Rapido 640F's CBE system comprises a PC180 control-panel, a DS300-RA distribution-box, a CB516 battery-charger and DS100UK 230V ‘consumer unit’.

 

However, some 2015 Rapido motorhome ranges have a CBE system with a PC320 control-panel and a DS450-RA distribution-box, while a couple of ranges have a non-CBE electrical system.

 

There’s a good deal of information about the electrical system in the Rapido User Manual, except my Manual’s description of the PC180 panel is badly wrong, causing me grief for a while until I realised this was so. Although PC100 and PC200 panels could be ‘bespoke’, the PC180 may be generic.

[DavieR]

Don636 - 2017-10-26 9:24 PM

 

Interesting thread which has made it clear that, if I ever have an electrical problem in the van I am screwed and will just have to call an engineer as there is no chance I could get my head round this lot!!!

 

Well, you could ask the forum!

 

After one nights EHU and fully charged batteries we are back to off-grid again and all is well. Leisure batteries are charging whilst driving and showing 13+ volts :-D

[johnfromnorfolk]

DavieR - 2017-10-25 8:30 PM

 

Feeling a bit stupid asking this but electrics is a bit beyond me at times. Never had a leisure battery problem before though except when one died (was in Dresden then!)

 

Seven weeks into our Norway trip in our new van and it looks like our leisure batteries are not being charged by the vehicle. We have 2 x 110amp Numax batteries. We have been off grid the whole time relying on solar and the engine for recharging. I noticed last night that the batteries were at 12.1v and after several hours driving today (with no solar to speak of) were the same this evening. Using a few LED lights and our Combi 4E heater for 3-4 hours had dropped the charge to 11.5v and we now have a warning light on our control panel.

 

I've checked the 50amp fuse for the split charge system and it looks ok. I don't have a spare one with me.

 

It's not exactly a crisis, it isn't freezing (yet!), we can easily find a EHU and we are making our way home now. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks

 

 

Bit different from your original post Davie R.

We are planning a trip to Norway next year and are not sure what currency we should take. Norwegian friends suggest Meastro card (which is difficult to obtain) and we understand mastercard is not accepted. I'm not sure I want to take a large stash of cash.

Any suggestions or advice? 8-)

[peterjl]

Hi

 

2 years ago we had no problem using MasterCard all around Norway and Sweden.

 

You will find that the Norwegians use credit cards for most transactions, even small ones like buying an ice cream.

 

I think you will find the maestro card is more of a German thing. In Germany many shops do not accept credit cards and some petrol stations will not accept credit cards.

 

Peter

[DavieR]

johnfromnorfolk - 2017-10-29 8:35 AM

Bit different from your original post Davie R.

We are planning a trip to Norway next year and are not sure what currency we should take. Norwegian friends suggest Meastro card (which is difficult to obtain) and we understand mastercard is not accepted. I'm not sure I want to take a large stash of cash.

Any suggestions or advice? 8-)

 

Hi John, we are using a prepaid Mastercard offered by Monzo. It's been accepted everywhere so far. We just loaded it up with £££s and have commission free purchases plus cash withdrawals. Works a treat.

 

When we get back I'll write up a few more details about it.

 

 

[johnfromnorfolk]

DavieR - 2017-10-29 9:02 PM

 

johnfromnorfolk - 2017-10-29 8:35 AM

Bit different from your original post Davie R.

We are planning a trip to Norway next year and are not sure what currency we should take. Norwegian friends suggest Meastro card (which is difficult to obtain) and we understand mastercard is not accepted. I'm not sure I want to take a large stash of cash.

Any suggestions or advice? 8-)

 

Hi John, we are using a prepaid Mastercard offered by Monzo. It's been accepted everywhere so far. We just loaded it up with £££s and have commission free purchases plus cash withdrawals. Works a treat.

 

When we get back I'll write up a few more details about it.

 

 

 

Many thanks Davie.

I would be very interested to learn which route.you took.

Also be happy for you to email me with the details.

Thanks again for your help.

:-)

[Alanb]

DavieR - 2017-10-26 5:50 PM

 

After changing a 3amp fuse marked with a two battery symbol and described as "to protect the OUT D+ simulated exit" we now have charge from the alternator (this may be just coincidence, I really don't know!). A subsequent two hour drive upped the voltage a bit with 13+ amps charge. ...........

 

Cheers, Dave

 

I was rather surprised when Dave managed to cure his problem by replacing this fuse, as my understanding was that it only protected the board from an external fault.

 

Subsequent testing on my 2006 CBE DS520 has proved that I was correct in my belief.

With the fuse removed, and engine running, I can see charging current displayed on my PC200 display. Further I can detect 12V at the DS520 fridge connection point. I have also carried out further tests with the same conclusion.

 

In my vehicle the CBE simulated D+ output fuse on the DS520, does not supply the integral split charge and fridge relays.

 

This poses the question as to whether there has been a design change, or were there other factors involved?

 

Alan