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Insulation in Panel vans


Mrs Sea

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Can anyone comment on the comparative insulation between a coachbuilt and a panel van.

 

We use our coachbuilt all winter and, even if our next van is a panel van, will continue to do so. If the windscreen and other cab windows are not double glazed and, it would seem the rear windows and doors are just standard panel van rear doors and windows, surely you will get a lot of condensation problems.

 

Not sure I like the idea of a rear bed up against a poorly insulated rear door/window. Can't open the window either if the weather is very warm.

 

Maybe it'll be a coachbuilt after all.....

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Guest JudgeMental
Mrs Sea - 2007-05-21 8:37 PM

 

Maybe it'll be a coachbuilt after all.....

 

I would say so as well, its near enough impossible to insulate and ventilate a tin box properly.

 

there is quite a choice of smaller "van" type campers from leading German manufacturers these days.

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Guest JudgeMental

 

Also the prices are a bit rich.

 

At Newbury Timberland vans where I think around £36.000.

 

you can get a new LHD Hymer Van for £26.000

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Mrs Sea - 2007-05-21 8:37 PM

 

Can anyone comment on the comparative insulation between a coachbuilt and a panel van.

 

We use our coachbuilt all winter and, even if our next van is a panel van, will continue to do so. If the windscreen and other cab windows are not double glazed and, it would seem the rear windows and doors are just standard panel van rear doors and windows, surely you will get a lot of condensation problems.

 

Not sure I like the idea of a rear bed up against a poorly insulated rear door/window. Can't open the window either if the weather is very warm.

 

Maybe it'll be a coachbuilt after all.....

 

We use our Timberland mainly in the winter and we don't have a problem with the cold.

 

The van is well insulated and the rear windows are double glazed. We have been down to minus 6C overnight and the eberspacher diesel heater has the place warm in a few minutes. Remember in a van conversion you don't have the large areas of a coach built to keep warm.

 

The cab area does get cold and you will get condensation on the windscreen and cab windows.

 

Over the years we have had the full range of vans, A Class, Coach Built and Panel Van so we are talking from experience and not hearsay.

 

Don

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JudgeMental - 2007-05-21 9:07 PM

 

I would say so as well, its near enough impossible to insulate and ventilate a tin box properly.

 

there is quite a choice of smaller "van" type campers from leading German manufacturers these days.

 

I disagree... most panel vans have a sodden great door on the side, numerous windows, and a huge opening at the back; plus one or two roof vents. How can that be impossible to ventilate?

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Guest JudgeMental

 

 

OK, you show me a panel van with an EN classification for winter use and maybe then I'll change my opinion.

 

 

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With respect, you said...

 

JudgeMental - 2007-05-21 9:07 PM

 

I would say so as well, its near enough impossible to insulate and ventilate a tin box properly.

 

 

... so not sure what "EN classification for winter use" has to do with ventilation. I would concede that the insulation is generally thinner, but would also suggest that space to heat is generally smaller.

 

With regards ventilation, I would suggest it was on a par, if not much better, than a coachbuilt.

 

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Guest JudgeMental
b6x - 2007-05-22 11:08 AM

 

With respect, you said...

 

JudgeMental - 2007-05-21 9:07 PM

 

I would say so as well, its near enough impossible to insulate and ventilate a tin box properly.

 

 

... so not sure what "EN classification for winter use" has to do with

ventilation. I would concede that the insulation is generally thinner, but would also concede that space to heat is also generally smaller.

pr

With regards ventilation, I would suggest it was on a par, if not much better than a coachbuilt.

 

For my flippancy I apologies, but I did not mention "ventilate" in isolation, why you are concentrating on this is beyond me.

 

I had VW campers for many years and loved them to death - still do.

But I well remember the water/condensation running down interior (single glazed) windows in the mornings

 

at the end of the day these van based campers are not cheap - I think better value and 4 season performance is available from a properly constructed motorhome.

 

Plus I prefer an EN classification rather then manufacturers spin.

 

 

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JudgeMental - 2007-05-22 11:46 AM

 

 

at the end of the day these van based campers are not cheap - I think better value and 4 season performance is available from a properly constructed motorhome.

 

 

Each to their own. And that is your more-than-valid opinion. However, a LHD continental coachbuilt is not the answer to everyones motorhome needs.

 

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JudgeMental - 2007-05-22 11:46 AM

 

b6x - 2007-05-22 11:08 AM

 

With respect, you said...

 

JudgeMental - 2007-05-21 9:07 PM

 

I would say so as well, its near enough impossible to insulate and ventilate a tin box properly.

 

 

... so not sure what "EN classification for winter use" has to do with

ventilation. I would concede that the insulation is generally thinner, but would also concede that space to heat is also generally smaller.

pr

With regards ventilation, I would suggest it was on a par, if not much better than a coachbuilt.

 

For my flippancy I apologies, but I did not mention "ventilate" in isolation, why you are concentrating on this is beyond me.

 

I had VW campers for many years and loved them to death - still do.

But I well remember the water/condensation running down interior (single glazed) windows in the mornings

 

at the end of the day these van based campers are not cheap - I think better value and 4 season performance is available from a properly constructed motorhome.

 

Plus I prefer an EN classification rather then manufacturers spin.

 

 

Eddie,

 

How much "Real" winter use have you had out of a modern day panel van conversion (?) or any motorhome come to that.

 

Agree with you on the VW, used one in 1956 in my time in Germany 8-) 8-) But contrary to popular belief things have improved.

 

As for the EN classification I wonder exactly what it really entails, just more spin. :-D :-D

 

Enjoy your holiday, I'm sure you will.

 

Don

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The problem with a lot, but I am sure not all, panel van conversions, is that they are insulated with a vapour permeable insulant such as glass fibre mat.  Mainly, this is because it is sufficiently flexible and workable to be inserted into the curved and moulded sidewalls of the vans.  However, because these insulants are designed to transmit water vapour, it becomes imperative that a continuous vapour barrier is installed between the insulant and the inner wall lining.  In practice, this is extremely difficult to achieve, the more so having regard to all the cables and cut outs that tend to be needed for motorhomes.  Failure to achieve a good vapour barrier means water vapour migrates through the insulant to condense in the cold inside surface of the steel van wall.  If used for an extended period in cold conditions this could begin to saturate the insulant itself, reducing its insulating performance and so making the problem progressively worse. 

To some extent, the same is true of coachbuilt vans.  Many Luton bodied vans do have mat type insulants in the overcab area: however most use rigid expanded plastics for floor, wall, and roof insulation.  These insulants resist vapour transmission better than mat, and are generally thicker at 35mm or more, so the overall insulation should comfortably exceed that of a panel van conversion, while at the same time reducing their proneness to condensation. 

However, some sheet pastics make better vapour barriers that others, and so far as I am aware, no "coachbuilders" install vapour barriers.  Since the outer sheet of the wall, be it aluminium or GRP is, to all intents and purposes, 100% vapour proof, vapour will still condense on the unseen inner surface when conditions are right (or should that be wrong?). 

I have long wondered how much this characteristic of caravan and motorhome construction, rather than actual water ingress, contributes to damp problems.  Those who use their vans extensively in winter, and especially those who go winter sporting, do need to be very careful to ensure they air out their vans thoughroughly every day, to combat the build up of warm humid air inside, and so reduce the tendency for condensation to accumulate unseen within the construction.

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Guest JudgeMental

Eddie,

How much "Real" winter use have you had out of a modern day panel van conversion (?) or any motorhome come to that.

As for the EN classification I wonder exactly what it really entails, just more spin. :-D :-D

 

Enjoy your holiday, I'm sure you will.

 

Don

 

 

Ah, another tin man! :-D

 

over the last 6 years have been up to lapland on 3 occasions - 25deg c or less. qualified?

 

 

whilst I agree no information should be taken as sacrosanct, without legislative standards how do you measure anything or trust it?

 

as an example how many have purchased campers that are advertised as winterized but clearly are not?

 

 

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A well contructed panel van conversion can be just as well insulated - or even better - than a coach built. After all, many are converted, using their existing van bodies, for use as refrigerated delivery vehicles for frozen products, and the same principles apply in reverse.

 

To pick up some of the points made in this post:

 

- 'cold bridges' are avoided by screwing a wooden framework to the van's metal frame so that the wood protrudes further into the van so that the internal lining (usually plywood) is fixed to the wood rather than the metal.

 

- my own van was lined with the same sheet material used in most coach-built and not either glass fibre or rockwool. The sheet material is sufficiently flexible to bend where necessary and soft insulation can be used to pack corners, etc., where the sheet won't bend - the same as for coach builts.

 

- yes, the vapour barrier is broken by some holes for cables, etc., but this is no different from the situation with a coach built conversion, many of which have an aluminium external surface just as prone to condensation as a metal van - and even sheet abs or gpr exteriors have this problem.

 

- yes, a van conversion has large doors. Some converters replace the rear doors and improve the insulation (IH for one). And the large sliding door IS a place where heat is lost, but that is never a problem with a decent heating system in very cold climes.

 

Of course, there are badly insulated vans just as there are coach-builts. But please don't condemn all van conversions because of misconceptions (evident in many of the postings in this thread) about just one aspect - insulation.

 

If what you're after is maximum floor area per ££ of capital spent, then you'll probably buy a US RV. But it's a misconception to say panel van conversions are expensive. Sure some are - they are the Esterels of the van conversion world. But just as you can buy a cheap CI C-Class, you can buy a cheap Trigano Tribute or SEA Sloop. These are aimed at a mass market of mainly summer users, so they have not bothered to build fully winterized vans. Converters who do so tend to be small and thus getting the latest 'Sticky-foot' is a cost they're simply not interested - and nor are their customers.

 

It's sadly becoming increasingly obvious that there are some posters on this forum who are mistaking opinion for fact without knowing the real facts. Don has given the real facts. I've amplified them above. Mrs SEA should have no problem with a well-built van conversion and will have all the advantages of driveability and ease of access

 

Mel E

====

 

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Guest JudgeMental

It is very very sad.:-D

 

However, I also have been aware for some time that there are a hard core of self opinionated old duffers who have nothing better to do then pontificate at great length on every given subject. furthermore they seem to think they have a monopoly on opinion masquarading as fact :-D

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Thanks one and all. I hadn't appreciated that insulation of vans was so varied. We will use ours (when we get it) in winter a fair bit, (living in Scotland our summers are similar to some folks winter!). The Tribute sounds like it won't be insulated enough/well enough for our needs so we'll have to look again. Quite where I don't know. At least now we know what to look for and ask about.

 

Thanks again.

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Sorry, I got to this thread a bit late.

 

I have a conversion on a VERY large panel van - a Mercedes 709, which is considerably bigger than a 4-metre Sprinter. (The same bodyshell is still used on the 814 Vario.)

 

I'm pretty much full-timing in it, and right through the winter I heated it with a 2kw fan heater, of the type which can be bought in any High St electrical shop for £10 or less. It has 1kw and 2kw settings, and I found that even in the depths of winter I very seldom needed the 2kw setting.

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  • 5 years later...
Guest Peter James
Brian Kirby - 2007-05-22 12:09 PM

The problem with a lot, but I am sure not all, panel van conversions, is that they are insulated with a vapour permeable insulant such as glass fibre mat.  Mainly, this is because it is sufficiently flexible and workable to be inserted into the curved and moulded sidewalls of the vans.  However, because these insulants are designed to transmit water vapour, it becomes imperative that a continuous vapour barrier is installed between the insulant and the inner wall lining.  In practice, this is extremely difficult to achieve, the more so having regard to all the cables and cut outs that tend to be needed for motorhomes.  Failure to achieve a good vapour barrier means water vapour migrates through the insulant to condense in the cold inside surface of the steel van wall.  If used for an extended period in cold conditions this could begin to saturate the insulant itself, reducing its insulating performance and so making the problem progressively worse. 

To some extent, the same is true of coachbuilt vans.  Many Luton bodied vans do have mat type insulants in the overcab area: however most use rigid expanded plastics for floor, wall, and roof insulation.  These insulants resist vapour transmission better than mat, and are generally thicker at 35mm or more, so the overall insulation should comfortably exceed that of a panel van conversion, while at the same time reducing their proneness to condensation. 

However, some sheet pastics make better vapour barriers that others, and so far as I am aware, no "coachbuilders" install vapour barriers.  Since the outer sheet of the wall, be it aluminium or GRP is, to all intents and purposes, 100% vapour proof, vapour will still condense on the unseen inner surface when conditions are right (or should that be wrong?). 

I have long wondered how much this characteristic of caravan and motorhome construction, rather than actual water ingress, contributes to damp problems.  Those who use their vans extensively in winter, and especially those who go winter sporting, do need to be very careful to ensure they air out their vans thoughroughly every day, to combat the build up of warm humid air inside, and so reduce the tendency for condensation to accumulate unseen within the construction.

Interesting post.Has anyone removed panels in their PVC conversion to see if there is any insulation underneath?Or is it just like a car door with a thin hardboard panel and nothing behind it?I have just been looking at a website that recommends taking out the panels and sticking foil faced bubble wrap behind them. But said websiye was selling foil faced bubble wrap at £40 a roll ('tis around £10 a roll at B&Q *-) ) Someone who had stuch this foil faced bubble wrap on the metal panels later found condensation / mould / rust underneath it.
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Guest JudgeMental

some better insulated then others..but gone are the days of fibre glass insulation that retained moisture and sunk down to the bottom of panels (my VW Westphalia and many others including CB's). that was my experience at that time as Brian's by the sound of it.......Most now use a close cell insulation glued to exterior panels. from 15 - 22 mm thick, made up of bonded close cell insulation. I have a picture somewhere of a section I will look for it.

 

seeing as since this thread I have gone over, B6x was more or less spot on... with a decent gas heater a PV as snog as anything....As we dont winter camp much, but have slept in it in winter, its more then comfortable, no drafts and no condensation whatsoever..also no metal on show so no cold bridge...Wow 2007 .. fascinating..... :-D

 

this video shows how some do it, you can see thickness through round holes, its a Possl/Globecar and they have a good reputation for insulation and better then my Adria...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmKheL0b6vg

 

a bit surprise as a home builder you did not bother to insulate van first....

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Cab windows in ANY motorhome (CB or PVC) are single-glazed and will suffer internal condensation unless you use EXTERIOR silver screens or similar. (We choose only to carry internal screens for convenience, and put up with the condensation).

 

Some current PVCs (eg some of the posher Autosleepers) look to me as if they retain the tinted SINGLE-GLAZED windows from the minibus variant of the base vehicle. If that's so, I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole for anything other than summer use.

Our old home-converted Transit had single-glazed windows all round, and was impossible to heat. However since we only had it on the road in summer, we weren't too bothered back then!

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Peter James - 2012-12-06 9:41 PM
Brian Kirby - 2007-05-22 12:09 PM

The problem with a lot, but I am sure not all, panel van conversions, is that they are insulated with a vapour permeable insulant such as glass fibre mat.  Mainly, this is because it is sufficiently flexible and workable to be inserted into the curved and moulded sidewalls of the vans.  However, because these insulants are designed to transmit water vapour, it becomes imperative that a continuous vapour barrier is installed between the insulant and the inner wall lining.  In practice, this is extremely difficult to achieve, the more so having regard to all the cables and cut outs that tend to be needed for motorhomes.  Failure to achieve a good vapour barrier means water vapour migrates through the insulant to condense in the cold inside surface of the steel van wall.  If used for an extended period in cold conditions this could begin to saturate the insulant itself, reducing its insulating performance and so making the problem progressively worse. 

To some extent, the same is true of coachbuilt vans.  Many Luton bodied vans do have mat type insulants in the overcab area: however most use rigid expanded plastics for floor, wall, and roof insulation.  These insulants resist vapour transmission better than mat, and are generally thicker at 35mm or more, so the overall insulation should comfortably exceed that of a panel van conversion, while at the same time reducing their proneness to condensation. 

However, some sheet pastics make better vapour barriers that others, and so far as I am aware, no "coachbuilders" install vapour barriers.  Since the outer sheet of the wall, be it aluminium or GRP is, to all intents and purposes, 100% vapour proof, vapour will still condense on the unseen inner surface when conditions are right (or should that be wrong?). 

I have long wondered how much this characteristic of caravan and motorhome construction, rather than actual water ingress, contributes to damp problems.  Those who use their vans extensively in winter, and especially those who go winter sporting, do need to be very careful to ensure they air out their vans thoughroughly every day, to combat the build up of warm humid air inside, and so reduce the tendency for condensation to accumulate unseen within the construction.

Interesting post.Has anyone removed panels in their PVC conversion to see if there is any insulation underneath?Or is it just like a car door with a thin hardboard panel and nothing behind it?I have just been looking at a website that recommends taking out the panels and sticking foil faced bubble wrap behind them. But said websiye was selling foil faced bubble wrap at £40 a roll ('tis around £10 a roll at B&Q *-) ) Someone who had stuch this foil faced bubble wrap on the metal panels later found condensation / mould / rust underneath it.
Yes. I had to remove a rear door panel on mine in order to repair the lock cable which had jumped out of its socket. The door was well insulated with 3M Thinsulate.My particular van feels cold for winter use and there is no way my wife would sleep in it below 0 degrees Centigrade. I have slept in a caravan in colder conditions and that was fine so my guess is that a similarly constructed coachbuilt would be better insulated than my particular panel van.
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Tony Jones - 2012-12-06 10:12 PM

 

 

Some current PVCs (eg some of the posher Autosleepers) look to me as if they retain the tinted SINGLE-GLAZED windows from the minibus variant of the base vehicle. If that's so, I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole for anything other than summer use./QUOTE]

 

Hi Tony,

You may be interested in the thread entitled "athermic windows".

As some of us (including myself) stated there we quite happily use our vans in all months without real problems regarding these windows.

 

Christmas greetings and blessings!

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Guest 1footinthegrave
With our IH having a fixed GRP insulated rear panel replacing steel doors we find the van snug and free of condensation with the exception of the cab area, which can end up soaking wet, it's a dilemma, so do we do use our external silver screen which almost eliminates it, but I've lost count of the times I'm stuck with a soaking wet screen to stow away if it's been raining which can be a pain. Certainly our PVC is easier to keep warm than our last Elnagh coachbuilt, IMO it's always going to be the cab area that creates the biggest problem to overcome, be it PVC or CB.
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Our Globecar has the standard steel rear doors but as their fully insulated it's still ok in the rear, as you say worst problem is the cab area.

IMO the best way to insulate a PVC is to stick some form of closed cell insulation to the inside of outer panel, did this on our last T25 DIY and it worked a treat, but trying to do this after conversion would be a nightmare, you need to get into every nook and cranny else you'll get cold spots which will attract condensation.

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Not sure what insulation is in our PVC but it is supposed to be fairly good I believe.

 

Our Rapido 709F coachbuilt had a large window running along the side of the fixed bed next to where I slept, similarly our Rimor coachbuilt had an even larger window along the side of the bed, and in both I really felt the cold coming in through the window 'glass' despite them being the usual acrylic double glazed type. To reduce this I made thermal type material curtains to keep the cold out more and also used some of the car windscreen sun screens (double layer type) to make panels that slotted behind the window blinds next to the windows for eve more insulation. Our last coachbuilt, the Chausson, didn't have a window along the side and I did notice that it was a bit warmer.

 

As we have a rear bed I have fitted a shower curtain pressure-fit pole and hung a couple of thermal type curtains from it which can then be pulled across the rear door at night to keep it nice and snug, I've also made some of the 'sun screen' panels for the windows too so hopefully I won't fee the cold in it if we use it in really chilly weather, which we haven't yet. However, when we were on holiday this year in it, we did experience some cool nights and I didn't feel cold - also the van actually warmed up quickly and seemed to retain the heat better than our coachbuilt motorhomes ever did. One of the major worries about going from a coachbuilt to a PVC was about how cold it would be but I'm so glad we made the change and my experience so far has allayed my fear. :-S

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