pullinground Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Please can anyone advise us - recently a arguement has blown up regarding restrictive covenent and parking of 'caravan boat or trailer, commercial vehicle' on our barn conversion development - we have a Peugeot auto sleeper van conversion. Problems are escalating with neighbours. :'( We understand we can claim our van (our only vehicle) as a hobby. But wonder if there is a definitive judegement on what constitutes a motor home. ??? As our only vehicle, does this qualify us to keep vehicle at home on our parking bays. Having trawled the web - I am no further ahead in what appears to be a minefield! thanks :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 pullinground - 2013-06-25 8:10 AM Please can anyone advise us - recently a arguement has blown up regarding restrictive covenent and parking of 'caravan boat or trailer, commercial vehicle' on our barn conversion development - we have a Peugeot auto sleeper van conversion. Problems are escalating with neighbours. :'( We understand we can claim our van (our only vehicle) as a hobby. But wonder if there is a definitive judegement on what constitutes a motor home. ??? As our only vehicle, does this qualify us to keep vehicle at home on our parking bays. Having trawled the web - I am no further ahead in what appears to be a minefield! thanks :-| I do not think there is a legal definition in the circumstances you describe. For example the Caravan Sites and Development Act controls the development of sites but the definition in that Act is inappropriate in your circumstances as you are not developing a caravan site. Is there a "Definitions" clause in your Covenant? If not your best starting point is to consider very carefully what exactly your covenant states in relation to the prohibition which concerns you. If the covenant refers specifically to the word "Caravan" you could argue that the DVLA regard your vehicle as a "Motor Caravan" which is completely different from either a caravan or commercial vehicle in which case the restriction would not apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Before going down legal routes which cost money is there specific reasons why your neighbours are objecting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sss Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 My advice on this, go and get some proper legal advice. Forums are very useful for getting hints and tips, but this is something where you really could do with proper legal advice. This is because of the ramifications of it going wrong for you. Most motor home forums have this topic at various intervals but it is mixed advice on them. If there has been stated cases in the past the solicitor should be aware of how to track down the full details. Just make sure you find one that is familiar with motorhomes and covenants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The correct answer to your problem will depend on a considerable number of factors including the PRECISE wording of the title condition, the manner in which it has been constituted and the country you live in. Your vehicle is almost certainly a "motor caravan" and a motor caravan is legally defined by legislation. Clearly a motor caravan is different from a caravan and interestingly the legal definition appears to classify it as a "a special purposes passenger car" For what it is worth based on the wording you have quoted I believe that there may be good arguments that your vehicle is not caravan. Although it has certain characteristics of a commercial vehicle (and presumably "commercial vehicle" is not defined in your title deeds) I believe that having been registered as a "motor caravan" it ceases to be a "commercial vehicle". Clearly it is not a boat or a trailer. I would recommend that you seek advice from a solicitor specialising in residential conveyancing and title conditions. I appreciate that this is an expense that you may not want to incur but good advice from a specialist may head off bigger problems later. If you are reluctant to do this membership of Which, the Caravan Club and possibly your vehicle or household insurance may provide you with an avenue for free legal advice so it may be worth exploring that although the value of such "free" advice will depend on the level of specialist expertise of the individual giving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pullinground Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 Thank you all :-) the covenent relates to commercial vehicles, caravans that can be towed or popped on a trailer, or a trailer, or boat. The neigbours do not like to look at it. The coventent also relates to development and every householder has broken that coventent too! It seems that even with legal advice the answer is go to court and plead your case. I think contacting our insurers etc is a great idea. It does seem strange that this important issue facing probably thousands of people has yet to have a definition or a precedent in law. Why hasnt the motor home industry fought this one?! Surely they have a vested interest in our driving off their forecourt! Whilst I can see the point of the covenent really related to vehicles being left perm parked... rotting away - this is as I said our hobby and mode of transport. Oh dear... £££ sounds expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 You have entered into a contract..thats what a covenant is, sounds like you are in breach, should have considered this before buying property I'm afraid.... Do your homework, get proper advice etc.. But if your neighbours want to enforce the covenant it's up to them to start proceedings, just call their bluff..... but really not the best way to get on with the neighbours! This may be useful, you may have free legal advice with home insurance? http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-302986.html Edit: getting silly now..what has the caravan / motor caravan INDUSTRY have to do with anything. When we look at property we make sure it meets our requirements, in all probability IF it goes to court you would lose? Try and sort it out before situation deteriorates.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnerontheroad Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 If you are a member of the Caravan Club you can ask their legal department, also if you pay a monthly fee to your bank it sometimes has free legal advise. Good luck Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pullinground Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 Thank you judgemental... Firstly when we bought the property we did not own a motor home. Secondly, the covenent states almost everything except, motor bikes, horse boxes and motor homes. It appears we can park a crumbling and tatty 4x4 or the largest of the people carriers... but not a smart panel van conversion :-S - of similar size and style. The fact that we are 'in breach' of the covenent is the million dollar question since, it seems, that no-one is able to qualify what constitutes a caravan...in LAW. That was my point about Industry leading. It is in the interest of the manufacturers to sell MORE motor homes - if it is a constant battle to park them at home (especially the van style homes that clearly double up as every day transport) then ownership may become less tempting. Of course this is case specific - but one wonders how many other 'disputes' occur, how many thousands of pounds and shed tears across the country are spent on just this subject. How many people like us feel that the only way to avoid confrontation/bad feelings is to move home - or give up motor homing altogether Clarification - clarity on whether the MH is a car or caravan is the issue....and not even the 'industry or as yet the law' can decide it seems... :-S (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 But this really not the place to get help *-) You need to get out the paperwork and seek proper legal advice hopefully for free via your insurer? to take an injunction out against someone cost £175 at local magistrates court. So its your neighbors and an advisor you should be talking to not a bunch of motorhome fans where you will get lots of sympathy for your plight, but little else of use I'm afraid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Ultimately, only a judge in the County Court, or High Court (if it went that far!) could decide in law. But that is a VERY expensive way to get a definitive ruling. Best avoided by all parties if possible. It would be for your neighbours to sue you for breach of covenant, probably to seek damages and an " Order for Specific Performance" (ie an order instructing you to remove the vehicle). The'd be the Applicants and you'd be the Respondent. Expensive process, and loser pays..........as it'd be a Civil Court matter, then as well as damages if you lost, you'd be liable usually for BOTH sides legal bills ( bloody expensive, even if barristers not used). Far FAR better to try to get some sort of compromise. Offer to put up a nice wall/fence covered with pretty plants to obscure their view of your van? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-06-25 11:54 AM But this really not the place to get help *-) You need to get out the paperwork and seek proper legal advice hopefully for free via your insurer? to take an injunction out against someone cost £175 at local magistrates court. So its your neighbors and an advisor you should be talking to not a bunch of motorhome fans where you will get lots of sympathy for your plight, but little else of use I'm afraid... I agree with this. Look, a motorhome is a vehicle with the physical characteristics of a caravan (it provides living accommodation), and the visual characteristics of a commercial vehicle (size, colour, make, and model), and frequently also has writing or symbols on it. So, using the "duck" principle (if it looks like, walks like and quacks like etc), it is very likely to be construed as breaching on one or other count - possibly both. Other residents may have breached covenents, but this argument involves you, and you alone. What others have done won't wash as a defence, because their breaches have no bearing on your case. It is clearly your neighbour who is affronted, and your vehicle that causes the affront. Is there a publicly maintained road in front of the property? If so, and it has no parking restrictions, you can presumably park there as the covenants should not apply in that situation. Can you position your van elsewhere, so that your neighbour doesn't see it? It is probably more a matter of appearance, than of principle. Is there some other friction, and this has proved the tipping point? But, as said/implied above, your best bet must be to seek to negotiate with your neighbours, and see what you can do to placate them. Alongside the other suggestions for legal advice, which I think would be worth taking so that you know where you are likely to stand legally, and depending on how long you have lived there, it may be worth contacting the solicitor who carried ot the initial conveyance for you. You should have been advised of the existance of the covenants and been given a copy at least to read at the time, and should preferably have taken a reference copy. You could also try Citizen's Advice, who should have access to a duty solicitor. But you must act as, if you don't, matters between you and your neighbour will deteriorate, and may result in an injunction which, if served, you would have to comply with, as ignoring that would put you in a worse legal position than a breach of covenants case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Hi pullinground; When you bought the property; Did builder/developer advise you of the covenant Did your solicitor/conveyancer advise you of the covenant Did you own the campervan/motorcaravan Outcome and whether you can look to anyone for any redress will depend on your answers to the above In any case, Judge and Brian have given good advice regards alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithR Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 surely, as your motorhome is not a caravan, boat, trailor or commercial vehicle, then you are not in breach of the covenant? if your neighbours wish to contest this, then that is their prerogative, and expense. for a motorhome you need a registration document that says motor caravan, an MOT, road fund licence and a driving licence. if don't need all these for a caravan, then they surely cant be classed as the same???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Being me......... I'd park my camper elsewhere for now ;-)...............then buy the most hideous piece of crap and park that in my parking bay >:-).................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I believe MMM (june 2011?) has an article regarding restrictive covenants and the legal implications in england and wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambukashot Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Hi Pullinground,I invite you to post your original question on my forum: http://www.tmcto.org/index.php/forum/parking-on-your-driveYou will be the first to post but we do have a some great members with a wealth of experience that could help you with your problem and a way to help othersWorth a go!Thank youKeith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Not what you want to do but quite legal to park it on the road in front of your neighbours house (providing the paperwork is in order) Rgds :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambukashot Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 tonyishuk - 2013-06-25 10:25 PMNot what you want to do but quite legal to park it on the road in front of your neighbours house (providing the paperwork is in order)Rgds :D :DHi Tonyishuk, can you be a bit more specific about the first bit of your post please "Not what you want to do"What does that statement mean or refer to?ThanksKeith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 For what it is worth. I had problems with a neighbour many years ago. With hindsight, I should have put the house on the market when it kicked off. I got drawn in to a situation that was upsetting and unsettling for myself and family. it put a strain on my marriage which took a while to go away when the situation changed and we moved house. I have seen it and had friends affected by it and it always seems to happen on upmarket developments (although I concede it can happen anywhere). I hope you can get a swift resolution without legal action of any description, that is what you should be aiming for anyway. Just to say that we should really be downsizing now but we have a nice house with (importantly) good and friendly neighbours, so we are staying here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 KeithR - 2013-06-25 8:54 PM for a motorhome you need a registration document that says motor caravan And the second word on the registration document is? And the covenant bans what? And you would recomment going to court on that? Would you, Keith? Holed below the waterline before you'd set sail, I'd think! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pullinground Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share Posted June 26, 2013 Thank you everyone for your courteous replies (well most of them :$ ) As it happens I have written in the first person when in fact I am not the owner. I own my MH which sits happily on my property. What I am witnessing is a situation on a adjacent development.. No chance to park on road, but we have offered parking on our land. However the outcome is broken friendships and ill-feeling. The motorhome was not owned when home purchased - and it appears that a duck is a goose unless it crows! I was seeking info here (along with legal channels) in-case anyone had experience that may be useful. thanks again for all those that posted ... :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duetto owner Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 in the same position. had a post a few weeks ago. a caravan needs towing, a motorhome does not. if they wanted motorhomes included they would have said so in the convant, get your solicitor to contact the builders solicitor in writing for their views. keep the new neighbours happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRANKP60 Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Before i brought my MH i contacted the local council to see what view they had on it being park on my drive ,there is a convent going back 50 years ,company that built the property are long out of business,according to them they were not interested in taking action. In there words if it is taxed and insured i could park it on the highway as far as they were concerned . In our close there are two sign written vans,and a trailer parked on another drive . Neighbors taking out a private court action seems to be the only way that action can be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Is it just me? The covenant was clearly designed to lay down a framework for good neighbourliness. Notwithstanding the possible exploitation of technicalities - the spirit of the covenant is clearly intended to exclude anything that resembles a commercial vehicle or caravan. A pvc resembles both. What of the neighbours? In their position I think I'd be upset too if someone sought to ride roughshod over my enjoyment of my own property by attempting to exploit a loophole. Whether it may be deemed legal or not, it's simply inconsiderate in the extreme on behalf of the person seeking to park. I don't support the attitude of having the neighbours challenge at their expense. I don't support the audaciously selfish view that it's OK to bring misery and upset by a clear breach of the spirit of the covenant. The parties involved probably think of themselves, and may well be, otherwise decent people; little wonder society is circling the plughole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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