cojda Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 I am in my second year of motorhoming and have a 2009 Fiat Ducato ci 656 Carioca. It has been operating wonderfully until the last time we took her out. Battery was reading as fully charged on the control panel but when we got to the site it lasted around 30 minutes. charged her up but it would not hold the charge. I fitted a new battery and it worked well. When we got home it was still good. I plugged the MH into the mains to keep the fridge cool and after three days unplugged the van to find that the battery did not supply to the habitation circuit. With the mains power on or with the engine running I get two flashing red lights for the batteries, and I get a charging indication for the aux battery when pressing the respective button. Everything works from the 230V mains. I have checked all the fuses and they appear ok. Battery reading on a multimeter is 13.8v and it maintains this reading. Any ideas before I get a garage involved. I am suspecting the switch under the drivers seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 If we had details of the actual electronic unit installed it would aid diagnosis. Assuming it is a Nordelettronica fuse board, similar to photo, the Red lights normally indicate loss of contact with the batteries due to a wiring/fuse issue or through burnt connectors. If it is a Fuse board based system and it's located behind the Passenger seat then the fuses are sometimes under the seat itself, not part of the Fuse board. Look for Black plastic strip fuse holders, one for each battery. See photo. Easiest and safest to remove the seat, too much risk of tools contacting the seat frame causing an expensive short. Check security of the Earth points while you are in there, multiple wires going to a single point with a posi screw. Not unusual for the screw to loosen or corrode. If the fuses have failed, not unusual for the damage to be caused by a Jump Start. Use 30amp replacements, don't just follow what is there as it is not unusual for someone to replace these strip fuses with the wrong value as they are less easy to come across. If the fuses are good and you have run with a poor battery for a while, check the back of the Fuse board for burnt connectors. See here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php for pictures of what you are checking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Has Colin checked the fuse at the habitation battery + terminal? If the original battery had failed and either the alternator or the mains unit was trying to charge it, it seems possible the resulting charging current may have exceeded the fuse capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-07-20 5:20 PM Has Colin checked the fuse at the habitation battery + terminal? If the original battery had failed and either the alternator or the mains unit was trying to charge it, it seems possible the resulting charging current may have exceeded the fuse capacity. If it is the Nordelettronica fuse board in the photo that is normally fitted to the Carioca, they don't have the fuse at the batteries. That means the fuse can be located further from the battery than is ideal, but at least all of the connections, key wiring and charger are located in close proximity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Is the battery charger switched on ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-07-20 5:31 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-07-20 5:20 PM Has Colin checked the fuse at the habitation battery + terminal? If the original battery had failed and either the alternator or the mains unit was trying to charge it, it seems possible the resulting charging current may have exceeded the fuse capacity. If it is the Nordelettronica fuse board in the photo that is normally fitted to the Carioca, they don't have the fuse at the batteries. That means the fuse can be located further from the battery than is ideal, but at least all of the connections, key wiring and charger are located in close proximity. Thanks Alan. I assume the battery must therefore by under one of the front seats? I thought the rule was to install a fuse at the battery to protect the main feed wiring. Seems not in Italy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojda Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 Thank you gents. It is the Nordelettronica fuse board as shown in the photo. I shall get on with that tomorrow and let you know how I get on. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 cojda - 2018-07-20 6:04 PM Thank you gents. It is the Nordelettronica fuse board as shown in the photo. I shall get on with that tomorrow and let you know how I get on. Thanks again Vindiboy, On this installation the charger is separate to the main fuse board and shouldn't have any impact on the 12v supply itself. However, you right to point out it should be checked as it often fails if used with a poor battery. Brian, yes the battery is usually under the drivers seat and generally allowed to get well past it's best because of the zero access, Where a second battery is fitted it is usually further into the habitation area. But this series of Motorhomes came out of the factory with a single battery, which is all the electronics will support, they even struggle to support a single big battery that is poor, the Fuse board connectors will only handle about 25 amps current and an 90Ah battery. See photos of units we have seen, starting with a Fuse board where the connectors were just a bit blackened, going up to a quite serious fire. Colin, strongly suggest you follow the link supplied earlier in the thread if you ever consider following the advice of 'experts' and add a second battery. They really don't have a clue, the advice is more about selling batteries for their sponsors. This has become quite a serious issue for which I think they should be accountable, as one day someone might die. If you know other CI users with similar electronics please can you warn them about the importance of a quality, young battery that is no bigger than the Motorhome designer envisaged. Link repeated here for ease : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojda Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 This is where we are, after some work and further research: Fuses all ok, circuit boards all appear to be ok. Leisure battery and engine battery work in parallel while voltage is above 12.4V in the leisure battery. Not sure if there is a reset or if it is done automatically(auto I suspect). Fuse unit is located behind the drivers seat with the charger under the seat. Leisure battery is located under the vehicle and is exposed to the elements(quite bizarre), engine battery is located under the floor between the driver and passenger and this is where the bigger fuse links are also located. No sign of a loose earth. Everything still works on mains but not on battery or with engine running. With engine running I don't get an indication on the panel to indicate that the engine battery is being charged, just a red flashing light but the panel does indicate that the leisure battery is being charged. Could it possibly be the charger under the seat? at a bit of a loss with anything else. But as the leisure battery is being charged by mains I doubt it. There must be another fuse or possibly a relay responsible???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Colin, Where the fridge 12V power is taken from the distribution board and the connection from the starter battery is impaired, the fridge will discharge the habitation battery when the engine is running. This may be a factor in your problem. Thought. Have you checked the starter battery voltage with the engine running? Below I have isolated some of your statements, and posed questions or statements in reply. I hope that one of these may point you in the right direction. “I plugged the MH into the mains to keep the fridge cool, and after three days unplugged the van to find that the battery did not supply to the habitation circuit.” Is the fridge pulling down the habitation battery when the engine is running? "Everything works from the 230V mains. I have checked all the fuses and they appear ok." Chargers are typically connected to the distribution board, and when on EHU function as a PSU. "Battery reading on a multimeter is 13.8v and it maintains this reading." As the battery is under vehicle, was this reading taken at the battery? “Leisure battery and engine battery work in parallel while voltage is above 12.4V in the leisure battery. Not sure if there is a reset or if it is done automatically(auto I suspect).” This suggests a voltage sensitive relay, but 12.4V is too low for the release voltage. Once such a relay has operated, it will be the voltage of the two batteries in parallel that is being monitored. "No sign of a loose earth.” Earth connections may not be loose, but could be corroded. Given the location of the “leisure” battery, carefully examine the connections and any associated earth connection. It may be worthwhile to clean the terminals, and apply a thin film of vaseline. “Everything still works on mains but not on battery or with engine running.” This suggests that there is a poor connection to the starter battery, and the habitation battery. “With engine running I don't get an indication on the panel to indicate that the engine battery is being charged, just a red flashing light but the panel does indicate that the leisure battery is being charged.” As suggested by Allan, the flashing light indicates a missing connection to the starter battery. Is it possible that the charge indication for the “leisure battery” is optimistic? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 cojda - 2018-07-21 6:14 PM This is where we are, after some work and further research: Fuses all ok, circuit boards all appear to be ok. Leisure battery and engine battery work in parallel while voltage is above 12.4V in the leisure battery. Not sure if there is a reset or if it is done automatically(auto I suspect). Fuse unit is located behind the drivers seat with the charger under the seat. Leisure battery is located under the vehicle and is exposed to the elements(quite bizarre), engine battery is located under the floor between the driver and passenger and this is where the bigger fuse links are also located. No sign of a loose earth. Everything still works on mains but not on battery or with engine running. With engine running I don't get an indication on the panel to indicate that the engine battery is being charged, just a red flashing light but the panel does indicate that the leisure battery is being charged. Could it possibly be the charger under the seat? at a bit of a loss with anything else. But as the leisure battery is being charged by mains I doubt it. There must be another fuse or possibly a relay responsible???? As you suggest, if not a fuse, then is there a relay that has the function of isolating the 12V habitation supplies when the engine is running? If so, might that relay have failed, leaving the 12V habitation supplies permanently isolated? I assume the fridge works on 12V with the engine running, as well as on mains? Plainly you have volts across the hab battery terminals, but have you checked that you have volts at the inboard ends of its connecting cables? Sorry, clutching at straws! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojda Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 Gents just been under the van and there is a fuse holder set around four feet away from the battery under the van and covered in tape. This had blown. Will get a replacement tomorrow and hopefully be back on the road. Nothing on it to say what size it is so I would assume a 25amp fuse should do the trick. Holder was full of muck so will have to do something better to weatherproof it. Very bizarre. Thanks all for the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Colin, I am pleased that you have located the probable cause of the fault. In your enthusiasm please do not forget the essential safety precaution of disconnecting the battery negative terminal before replacing the fuseholder. In the longer term, would it be possible to move the fuse to a more accessible position? Protecting the cable between the fuse and the battery with flexible conduit is good practice. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Alanb - 2018-07-23 10:00 PM...………………..In your enthusiasm please do not forget the essential safety precaution of disconnecting the battery negative terminal before replacing the fuseholder. ..........................Alan Good advice. Also, as it seems it is not yet clear what circuit/s that fuse protects, I think it might also be wise to disconnect the mains supply as well, or at make sure the mains charger is switched off. Agree about the flexible conduit - I think I'd do both cable ends, from where it exits through the floor to where it re-enters. The stuff is cheap enough. If you don't have a local supplier, try here: http://tinyurl.com/y8xjaeck I used them last month and found them excellent on price and delivery. No connection! :-) It sounds a bit like someone's DIY, rather than an OEM installation. Bizarre! If the cable can't be pulled back and run internally, it would be worth also getting a waterproof enclosure in which to house the new fuse carrier, and making sure the cable entry/exit is well waterproofed while at it. Dotty place to put a fuse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojda Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 New fuse now fitted and the cable tidied up, but still no power from the leisure battery. Tested the alternator and that is kicking out suitable voltage to the starter battery but not checked the leisure yet (heavens opened up). It was on mains power over night and the leisure battery had a starting voltage of 12.73 after a night on charge it was 12.72V. So I am suspecting an issue with the charger under the drivers seat. Not sure how to check that though, any ideas are greatly appreciated. Not sure how that would affect the battery supply yet. Just got a circuit diagram so will go through that tonight. Everything still working from mains hook up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Are you absolutely sure the two Black Fuses under the seat are both intact, as the battery charger connects in up stream of the battery so when the fuse goes the charger then supplies all 12v to the van, but the failed fuse between it and the battery means the battery sees no charger voltage at all? Every single symptom you have is of strip fuse failure. What value where the fuses inside the holders that I pictured in my first post and what were the voltages either side of the 'strip'? I would expect to see 14v with the charger on one side, but only your 12.7v on the battery side. You need to take the seat off to see them properly and work on them safely. A photo of the layout under the seat showing charger wiring, two fuses and coupled earths, with the seat removed, would be useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cojda Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 I have found a loose cable on the isolator switch under the seat and I now have services. The vehicle battery light on the control panel is still on and remains static, not sure why this is. Hopefully this was the cause and it remains so when the seat is back in I still don't see any fuses under the seat. I have added a photo of the layout under and behind the seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 That is nothing like the previous installations we have tackled, but brilliant you have found the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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