Lithium Batteries - The honest Truth?

[aandncaravan]

We have had three requests in the last week to fit Lithium based battery systems, two of them to Hymers.

When we declined because of the issues involved, one of the owners replied saying that we were wrong and pointed us to a web page which contradicted what we had said about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LifeP04).

 

The marketing on the webpage sent to us was not just incorrect, but in our view, a deliberate attempt to deceive.

 

The web page :https://www.sunstore.co.uk/PowerXtreme-LithiumIon-125ah-battery.html states

 

"Traditional leisure batteries are extremely heavy, can spill dangerous fluids, or have dangerous gasses and have to be taken out of the caravan in the winter to be constantly recharged.

 

 

When in truth one of the most 'traditional' Leisure batteries has been around well over 15 years, the Exide G80 Leisure battery. This and the Varta LFD90/Bosch L5 batteries have NONE of these issues, even staying charged for 6 months.

 

 

The page goes on :

"The traditional batteries may never be discharged under a 60% of it's capacity".

 

First of all note the clever, careful structuring of the sentence to suggest, on first reading, they mean 60% DOD, when in actual fact they are suggesting a 40% DOD. I think that most people realise a battery can be discharged lower than 40% of it's capacity?

Almost all good Lead Acid Leisure batteries are quoted with a 50% DOD figure. Exide additionally quote 80% DOD (just 20% capacity remaining figures for the G80).

In otherwords, for the website to suggest even the poorest traditional Lead battery won't discharge below 40% is ludicrous.

 

The 'marketing' goes on again :

"EmergoPlus has a solution for all these problems: PowerXtreme, LiFePO4 lithium leisure batteries. The PowerXtreme batteries are ultra lightweight batteries with extreme power that will never let you down. When compared to a similar lead-acid battery of 50 kg’s the PowerXtreme X75 weighs only 10kg’s and can be used for the full 100% without being damaged or getting lazy".

 

Since when did a 75Ah Lead Acid battery weigh 50kg's?? 110Ah batteries are only quoted at 23kg.

The real figure for the ultra rubbish Lead Acid battery they are trying to portray, will be about 17kgs or less. So 10kg versus 17kg is next to no difference and nothing like a Lithium being the claimed 5 times lighter.

Take into account the extra kilos of specialist lithium charger and support electronics, etc and a very different almost 'zero weight saving' picture is the reality.

 

Secondly they state that they can be discharged to 100%, yet almost all knowledgeable websites say a Lithium battery will have shortened life if taken below 90% and totally destroyed if taken below 95%.

One lithium specialist website advises no more than 80% discharge, if the maximum number of cycles are to be achievable.

 

 

The webpage goes further into Hans Anderson territory :

 

"The price may seem steep (that bit is true!!) but when considering it’s lifespan; it is 3 to 4 times longer than that of a regular battery".

 

 

Is it? When the best figures for Lithium cycle life talk of UP TO 2,000 cycles (that is shallow cycles not all to 80% DOD) and Exide quote up to 1,300 cycles for the 'traditional' G80 and Victron a massive 4,500 cycles for their 'Traditional' Lead Acid Gel, the figures don't seem to add up to me?

I know my Maths teacher always marked my papers '3/10 see me' but surely 2.000 isn't greater than Victron Energy's 4,500 cycles?

 

 

At the very best, the web page is comparing the best of one technology to the very dregs, 1950's "bottom of the pile" technology of the other.

At the worst it is a collection of deliberate mistruths, distorting reality to fit their marketing.

 

 

 

Lithium batteries require very sophisticated electronics to get the best from them and sophisticated charging systems, primarily Cell balancing. One of the things they don't like is to be continuously trickle charged.

Yet leaving a Motorhome on permanent trickle charge is a known 'trait' amongst owners. How the 14.4v of an Alternator continually charging a Lithium battery on a 3 day drive down to Spain will affect a Lithium is also yet to be seen. But I can guess the effect

 

 

 

When a common or garden G80 traditional Lead battery can achieve 1,000 cycles, but costs a tenth of a Lithium, you could fit 10 of the them, with around a 4 year life per battery, one after the other for up to 40 years life for the same money.

That is about 30 years 'traditional' life for the same cost as Lithium that only has a 'potential' 10 year life.

 

You can't fairly compare one thing to another that doesn't have matching criteria.

It's like saying a Honda CG 125 isn't as good as a Ducati 916. The Ducati cost much more when new, of course it is going to be better to have in your front room to admire while the Masseur brings the Blood flow back into your aching muscles after that 40 mile ride.

However, if the Motorcycle is being bought for commuting 15,000 miles a year around London, then 10 Hondas changed every 2 years will not only provide a much more comfortable, better solution but the overall costs of fuel, insurance, etc, etc

 

£ for £ Lithium just doesn't add up.

You can't fairly say one item is better than the next when it costs 10 times more, can you?

 

 

 

We are in in the middle of creating a webpage on Lithium batteries : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lithium-batteries.php

We don't sell them so are not trying to twist reality to fit our marketing, as usual it will try to be independent.

It is currently only an incoherent jumble of thoughts, but please take a look in a week or two?

 

 

Can you tell from how grumpy the above script is that it has been a bad day today? Been in a lot of pain all day.

Hopefully the new Lithium webpage will be a bit 'calmer', more balanced and better researched?

 

 

 

 

[colin]

From what i've seen to date Lithium needs to come down in price by a huge amount to make it cost effective against lead acid for motorhome use, and as you say it would seem to not be a straight swap vis a vis charging, so still not a viable option.

I am however puzzled at the weights you quote, my bike battery has roughly the usable power capacity of a 30ah lead acid (abet at 36v) and weights 2kg, so equivalent of 75ah should be 5kg, unless that is there is some large difference in efficiency of storage between 36v and 12v?

[aandncaravan]

It is not my quote. The webpage says the 75Ah X75 weighs 10kg.

The Lead Varta LFD 75 is allegedly 19kg, which will be a lot heavier than the very poor quality, lighter weight lead acid battery they seem to be using for comparison.

 

Are yours Lifep04, as these can have quite a bit less 'power density' than the usual lithium technologies?

LifeP04 are safer and have a longer cycle life, but less capacity so the battery needs to be bigger.

 

Is it Lithium Cobalt that have the highest power density but the greatest risk of explosion or is that lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4)?

Not sure, I am still learning on these things.

 

Don't get me wrong I love Lithium technology batteries, phones and laptops would not be half as usable if they were still using Lead Acid technology, just that Motorhomes are not ready for them yet.

 

Just like the Autotrail with a Sargent EC328, that in standard form puts out 18v to 'Boost' charge the batteries.

The Sargent works fantastic at fast charging quality Lead batteries, but guess what that did to the Lithium battery pack cycle life? A huge amount of money lost, well over £1,000.

 

The 'professional' installer did not have a clue what he was dealing with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EJB]

Presumably you will inform the supplying company of their inaccurate information?

 

SunStore Solar

Woods Way

Goring-by-sea

West Sussex

BN12 4QY

[aandncaravan]

That is not up to me, that is for the advertising standards authority.

[keninpalamos]

Wise words Allen You offer unbiased advice and in most quarters it is gratefully received (by me anyway :-D ) I can remember you view on B2B chargers, of which I have on an ageing Hymer ('99) and it's true that they can put a strain on alternators and drive belts if not used with a control unit so they can be turned off or voltage and amps regulated to suit what ever batteries you have. Mine is the first type produced by Charles Sterling and I' m about to replace it so it will be on Ebay soon.

[Tracker]

aandncaravan - 2017-09-09 9:31 PM

 

Can you tell from how grumpy the above script is that it has been a bad day today? Been in a lot of pain all day.

 

 

Very sad to hear that Alan, may I wish you all the very best wishes health wise.

 

Thank you for your most illuminating information which so many of us value.

[Robbo]

Tracker - 2017-09-10 11:17 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2017-09-09 9:31 PM

 

Can you tell from how grumpy the above script is that it has been a bad day today? Been in a lot of pain all day.

 

 

Very sad to hear that Alan, may I wish you all the very best wishes health wise.

 

Thank you for your most illuminating information which so many of us value.

 

+1 ...... here's wishing you a gradual and full recovery Allan. Hope it won't be too long before you can resume normal activities again. Must be very frustrating for you at the moment.

[aandncaravan]

Thank you both, and everyone else who has sent good wishes, today is a good day.

Think I did too much yesterday.

 

Yes it is frustrating, sorry if some of that comes it my my 'whinging'.

 

Natalie has already added a lot to the Lithium webpage, so it hopefully makes a more logical read than the above, so suggest you ignore the above and focus on the web page?

: http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lithium-batteries.php

 

We will also add to it as we learn more.

 

[Tracker]

aandncaravan - 2017-09-10 12:13 PM

Think I did too much yesterday.

 

Now that I really can relate to!!!

 

Just as you feel stronger you try and do a bit more and wallop, the next day gets it's own back on you!!

 

Glad you are feeling better Alan, keep up the good work!!

[trevor166uk]

All very interesting. I am in the process of choosing a new vehicle battery for my motorhome. The Varta LFD90 is stated as a 'dual purpose' battery, and most of the comments are aimed at its suitability as a leisure battery.

 

Is it as good as a vehicle battery as it is as a leisure battery or is it a case of it being inferior to a specific vehicle battery?

[aandncaravan]

Hello, We think it is the best Motorhome Starter battery available.

 

It is not quite as good as the pure CAR starter battery version, which has slightly more power.

However, a Motorhome is used in a very different way to a Car, because it can stand idle for weeks at a time when the Starter battery will often become quite discharged.

As a result most Motorhome Starter batteries will 'deeper discharge' than a pure Car Starter battery is expected to do. Obviously most cars are used every few days so the Starter battery never tends to discharge at all.

 

Because the Varta LFD90 is a Dual purpose Leisure/Starter Battery designed to discharge more deeply without issue, yet also has 1,000 cranking amps to start a 6 litre truck engine in the depths of Winter, it is about the best going for both jobs.

 

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Over the weekend I have had a stack of emails about this post on Lithium batteries.

Most taking me to task because almost all the 'marketing' says the opposite of our comments.

 

 

So can we try a slightly different approach, target one very specific issue that affects almost all Motorhomes, some to a far greater degree than others?.

 

Lithium batteries primary advantage over Lead batteries is their ability to discharge at a far higher rate, up to 100amps per the average 100Ah Lithium. This means they can, and do, also charge at up to 100amps per 100Ah battery.

 

The average Autotrail with Sargent equipment has pretty thin wiring to the two batteries. It is already well documented elsewhere that they sometimes struggle with 30amps.

 

Imagine if those two batteries were Lithium, discharged to 80% and drawing all the amps the Alternator can muster?

 

That is potentially (an extreme example) 180amps from the Alternator through the Sargent, which remember these two battery cables usually run back to, then through the spindly cables where the Lithiums are attached.

 

Can anybody visualise the damage that might be caused to the :

 

1. Cabling from the Alternator to the Sargent?

2. The poor Sargent box that has to transfer current that the designer would never have imagined in a hundred years?

3. The cabling from the Sargent to the batteries?

 

If a Fire doesn't start somewhere along that current path, then I'm a Welshman.

 

There are already issues with many Motorhome Power Controllers (not chargers) failing to cope with the existing Alternator current of just a second Lead battery, let alone the huge power of a Lithium battery.

 

If you are even vaguely contemplating Lithium, it will be a dangerous approach if you think it is a question of just removing the old batteries and fitting the Lithiums.

 

Have a look at our webpage on the complications that can arise of fitting a second Lead battery, never mind something more powerful. The webpage contains photos of Power Controllers that have burnt and even caught fire : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php

 

 

I have seen inside a Sargent EC325, EC328, EC500, etc and they are well made units, but it fills me with horror at the thought of the huge charging currents passing through from the Alternator that tired Lithiums might pull.

 

As for the likes of a BCA unit or any other Motorhome Power Controller that was designed in the days before Lithium, how would they respond?.

 

The Lithium webpage now has more information, but still a work in progress : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lithium-batteries.php

 

 

An interesting thought, or maybe not?

 

Many sellers of these Lithium batteries are saying they are easy to fit in ALL motorhomes, so would they be prepared to pay for any consequential damage to the Power Controller from Sargent, Reich, Nordelettronic, etc, the melted wiring and any fire damage to the Motorhome?

 

Would their Insurer?

 

 

 

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi folks, I have just been trying to follow the discussion re lipo battery ..for and against.

 

In the motorhome application, I have no experience, but a few years ago I used to fly Model aeroplanes, and lipo batteries just started to become popular, because of power availability versus weight.

 

However, there was stern warnings about their use in relation to charging regime and potential severe damage due to fire risk

 

One modeller left his nominal 12 volt lipo battery on recharge in the back of his car, whilst flying . The charger was on a timer, and was a controlled charging device, running from his car battery..

 

The net result was a catastrophic fire in the boot of his car, which being near to his fuel tank led to destruction of his and an adjacent car.

 

I would hope that more recent batteries of that type fitted to motorhomes would have significant fire protection and containment protection, because the fire temperature is very hot

 

Personally, I will stick to lead acid batteries .,yes I know they can be trouble if abused, but they are better understood.

 

Tonyg3nwl

 

 

 

 

 

[Billggski]

My cousin owns a Li ion battery factory in Florida, so when he emerged from his bunker I sent him the article. And, in the main, he agrees.

The technology doesn't mix with present charging set ups. In his words " putting this technology in the hands of Joe Bloggs is a recipe for disaster".

[arthur49]

Really interesting thread.

 

For me Allan, I've never used your services and we're unrelated, so I'm unbiased. I value your opinion on all issues motorhome related since you see the outcomes of poor design/installation/workmanship, not just the theory of what will/should work!

 

In the past, with a little bit of nudging, you even agreed my B2B was a good compromise since the EC155 was basic and since I used a remote controller for the B2B I could manage its charging whilst driving.

 

So, to me Allan, you're one of the most valuable contributors on this forum. If I have any electrical issues I'll be heading for N Wales, by appointment of course!

 

With apologies if this sounds like brown-nosing ....

[aandncaravan]

Sorry to open this again, but a sad email today on Lithiums that were missold for a slightly different use. In fact it sounds like the whole thing had a 'marketing misdirection' somewhere during the presentation?

 

A shortened, edited version of the email below -

 

 

"Hello, when I read your post I was furious that you could publish such incorrect information on Lithium Power Units. I was party to the House Solar Install for my Mother, knew about these as two were fitted.

 

I decided to get my thoughts in place then add to the comments to correct you.

In researching my Mothers Solar, to gather the evidence of how good they were, a number of discrepancies were noticed in it's performance.

 

Deeper research of Mothers Solar showed more 'marketing anomalies', as you seem to call them, between what my Mother and I were told by the Salesman's, polished, 'full feature presentation'.

 

A bit of research on you, did suggest you might be a bit more technical than I thought. Confirmed by the additional comments added to the post later by others.

 

A really detailed analysis of mothers solar proved serious deceipt

It seems that Mother has bought a House Solar Solution, now just over a year old, that won't save my mother the thousands of pounds the salesman promised.

 

We were told that the two Lithium power packs at the Heart of the system would last for ever, it would be a £6,000+ worthwhile option to the system. Would supply full House power when the Sun don't shine overnight forever, no issue. They don't by the way.

 

All research since suggests that in House solar, 6 - 10 years is optimistic.

 

So where the best systems, on the South West Coast, can start repaying the install cost after 20 years, we were told the lithiums would help us recover costs in 12 years. Ours will cost us £18,000 just in batteries over 30 years. There is likely to be a net loss of many thousand, not any saving.

Many house Solar owners are reporting failures of batteries, Solar Panels and the electronics, so our final loss may be even greater.

 

 

We were misled and lied to. The charts and figures shown to us are clearly not representative of the figures Mother has had this last year.

Maybe the figures might be achievable for a House roof facing South in the very South of the UK during a perfect year of 365 cloudless days. Not where we are, in Penrith facing slightly East during a normal British year.

 

After many days research, I find that 'Which' now run a webpage on missold Solar, so clearly we are not alone. It seems we are not alone in the company now having folded either.

 

 

So far from accusing you of talking Cow manure, I want to say please keep on the attack at the 'marketing Bull .....s'.

Ron".

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Allan

 

Any comments on the lithium batteries advertised here?

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/catalogue/02b06-lithium-batteries

 

[aandncaravan]

That is the first advert we have seen that has the weight 'advantage' more accurately depicted, by stating they weigh 'around' 60% of a Lead acid battery.

Probably once fully installed into a Motorhome, this pack and it's supporting infrastructure would result in the Lithium pack being nearer 80% of a Lead acid batteries weight, so supporting what we say above.

Significantly different to the other adverts false 'Lithium is 5 times lighter' claim.

 

So off to a good start for a £1,200 100Ah battery versus a £92 Lead Acid comparison?

 

Everything else we have said above about Lithium applies to these as well.

 

 

One important point made in the advert you link to, has not been covered yet (so many) is how Lithium batteries require very sophisticated Electronics, not just the charging system, but a full Battery Management System for optimum life.

The advert states,

" built-in battery management system (BMS) to ensure correct charging and long life."

 

 

The best Lithium packs contain electronics that will limit the power drawn by an Inverter to what the battery will cope with. They will also prevent the battery being run too low, as dropping a Lithium battery too low is serious stuff. Dropping a Lithium below 95% DOD just once is likely to result in catastrophic failure, not just shortened life

The Battery Management System will also limit the charging Current and Voltage, monitor temperature, etc.

 

The electronics INSIDE the battery casing, really are crucial to achieving a decent number of cycles.

What will happen if that electronics either fails, or worse, continues to work but incorrectly?

 

The reason I say a malfunction is worse than a complete failure is because a complete failure is more likely to leave the Lithium Cells undamaged and useable once the Electronics have been repaired. A totally failure is also likely to be noticed.

 

A malfunction (maybe like the type you see on a Sargent equipped Motorhome where it 'goes bonkers' and has to be 'reset') is more likely to cause catastrophic damage to the Lithium cells, only noticed when all power is lost. The result is more likely to be dead Lithium Cells and dead electronics.

 

We all know that in a Motorhome, electrical and electronics problems appear near the top of more Forums 'issue' list than anything else.

 

We also know what a significant cost a Dealer can charge to fix them. So if a Lithium battery has a potential ten year life, do the Electronics also have a 10 year warranty and does the warranty cover destruction of the Lithium cells by Roger the 'rogue' resister if he starts being naughty? Or does it just cover the 10p resistors cost?

 

If they don't have a long warranty then how are faults fixed after warranty runs out?

We don't think the Lithium batteries will have anything like the claimed useful lives, but if they do last 20 years, what infrastructure, repair, Exchange Electronic Packs, etc. is there in place now (and still will be in 20 years) to support them?

Lastly, it is well documented that the quality of electronics varies enormously dependent on the source. Some electronics coming out of the quality Chinese manufacturers are now brilliant, others are shocking, almost with built in 3 year lives.

Which are you buying with a Lithium pack, is it Sony quality, or was it assembled in the back room of a Chinese Restaurant?

 

 

I am not sure I would want to put £1,500 of a Lithium Installation in the hands of a little resistor or capacitor, But then I meet lots of the naughty little things every day so probably a bit biased?.

 

 

 

You might expect the introduction of additional electronics in a Motorhome to be a welcome extra revenue source for us? So why do we advise caution?

 

 

 

 

[Billggski]

My cousin I mentioned previously emailed

"even though I manufacture lithium batteries, I run a 840W solar array for my lake aerators and use lead acid deep cycle solar batteries as a huge capacitator between the panel and pump, just so much easier."

(Personally at that price I would look at Efoy or Hydramax catalytic generators.)

[aandncaravan]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-09-16 9:43 AM

 

Allan, Any comments on the lithium batteries advertised here?

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/catalogue/02b06-lithium-batteries

 

Derek, just had an email from someone who obviously has more time to go through the Technical Documents than me and he points out that in section 8, of the Tech Specs, it quotes.

"* The number of cycles is purely indicative as it depends on several factors such as environmental conditions, discharge depth, charge/discharge current, and so on *".

 

 

I am no Lithium battery expert, but those same terms are used to describe Lead Acid battery life.

So it seems the harder you use a Lithium battery, the shorter it's life, just like a Lead Battery.

Suggesting that, like Lead batteries, the 2,000 cycle life will be seriously impacted by the high current drain of an Inverter, deep discharging to low levels or fast charging from a big Alternator?

 

The very things the sales marketing are targeting as areas where the Lithium is at home, and what people are actually buying Lithium's for, will probably give the shortest life.

 

 

In another area of the specs it allegedly also states that a specific Lithium charger is recommended. While using a standard Motorhome Wet acid charger is 'acceptable', it is likely to further "shorten a Lithium's life".

 

 

The Tech document also confirms something I alluded to on Lithium's being damaged on 'long term charging in storage'. It states :

 

"When the battery is fully charged it is recommended that you disconnect or turn off the charger".

 

Might be a bit of an issue for some when it is generally regarded as 'set-in stone' that the charger can be left on forever?.

Also potentially an issue for every Solar Power system currently installed, as almost without exception, every one will degrade a Lithium set-up if the Solar is left active when the vehicle is not in use.

 

 

All that gives much credence to our assertions in the first post that, in a Motorhome environment, the cycle life may not be anywhere near the 'potential available'.

 

It also explains why some better informed Lithium 'experts' say don't drop below 80% DOD to preserve cycle life, not the Fairy Tale claims of 100% DOD..

 

 

I therefore thank you for finding so much supporting evidence, whether it was intentional or not, to back up what we said in our first thread.

 

 

Thank you also to those of you who are clearly knowledgeable on Lithium that have emailed contributions. It is expanding our knowledge on Lithium battery technology enormously. Please keep it up.

 

 

We will get it all on the Lithium Battery webpage as soon as.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Sorry, another 'emailer' has pointed out that the warranty for this ultra long life super heavy duty power pack is 36 months.

Covers manufacturing defects only, no consequential loss if the Motorhome catches Fire, overloads the Alternator or something.

 

 

You get 5 years warranty with a Bosch L5 lead wet acid battery??.

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

trevor166uk - 2017-09-11 10:51 AM

 

All very interesting. I am in the process of choosing a new vehicle battery for my motorhome. The Varta LFD90 is stated as a 'dual purpose' battery, and most of the comments are aimed at its suitability as a leisure battery.

 

Is it as good as a vehicle battery as it is as a leisure battery or is it a case of it being inferior to a specific vehicle battery?

 

Got a pair of them now and they certainly seem up to the job ;-) ......intend to swap them over every year from starter to camper to make them last longer B-) .......might even put one in the Carlight Caravan........

 

So I'll have 3 to play with :D .......

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2017-09-16 10:09 PM

 

...Sorry, another 'emailer' has pointed out that the warranty for this ultra long life super heavy duty power pack is 36 months...

 

 

A link to the User Manual for NDS 3Lion lithium batteries is provided on the RoadPro advert

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/userfiles/PDFs/product%20information/NDS/User%20manual%203Lion-3Link%20lithium%20batteries.pdf

 

This document includes installation instructions, caveats about how the batteries should (and should not) be charged and details of the batteries’ technical characteristics. The terms and conditions of the 36-months warranty are as follows:

 

"WARRANTY

The manufacturer assures proper operation of the 3Link and the 3Lion battery and undertakes to make free replacement of parts that deteriorate due to construction defects within 36 months of the purchase date, as evidenced by the validation information sheet (to be completed in each of its parts and returned to the manufacturer within 30 days of the date of purchase). Disadvantages resulting from incorrect installation and use, tampering, negligence, or failure to comply with the installation, use and storage requirements are excluded from the warranty. Furthermore, the manufacturer disclaims any liability for any direct or indirect damages.

The warranty becomes effective as of the date of sale or registration of the vehicle in the case of a first installation.

With the act of purchase or registration of the vehicle, together with the warranty card, the customer receives this certificate to be filled out in every part by the seller. The warranty certificate must be kept and filed for each dispute. Failure to submit the certificate and absence of or tampering on the 3Lion and/or the 3Link non detachable coupon with the serial number shall invalidate the warranty.

In the event of a 3Lion and/or 3Link failure, the customer may contact an Authorized Centre or contact NDS Energy S.r.l. directly. In case of replacement, the warranty period remains as the initial date indicated on the warranty certificate.

If the customer decides to make further verifications by third-party technicians, the customer shall bear the related costs without making any claims to NDS Energy S.r.l.

The returned product, although under warranty, must be shipped carriage paid and shall be returned carriage forward. The warranty certificate is valid only if accompanied by a payment receipt or delivery document.

For any dispute, the Court of Pescara shall have jurisdiction.”

 

NDS Energy is an Italian company

 

https://www.ndsenergy.it/?lang=en

 

so returning an under-warranty defective battery to them would be expensive. The only UK agent for NDS Energy equipment seems to be RoadPro.

[sheelz burnda]

As we're very interested in the possibility of having lithium batteries and all the benefits they offer we have found this thread interesting but confusing. I wrote to Andy Harris at RoadPro, who we'd been impressed with last week at the NEC Motorhome show, to express my confusion since his company had been used as an example, here.

 

This was his reply:

 

(>) I have signed up to subscribe to the forum but, as of now, I can’t post. Please post these numbered comments on the forum for me and make clear that they come from Andy Harris at RoadPro.

 

 

1) I have come across A & N Caravans before. Alan is very knowledgeable about many things to do with batteries and has written much that I agree with because it’s simply true. However, in my experience, he also gets a bee in his bonnet about certain products, brands and businesses – including RoadPro if I recall correctly. It appears that he now has a bee in his bonnet about lithium batteries. Much of what he says in his post is correct although not all of it. For instance, he says “110Ah batteries are only quoted at 23kg.” An NDS Green Power battery weighs 30 Kg so Alan is certainly not as reliable a source of facts as he makes out.

 

2) When it comes to lithium batteries, Alan mixes fact with fiction and he allows the bee in his bonnet to buzz around in a completely random way. In fact, he makes so many silly comments that I just don’t have time to deal with them all. However, when he asks on his website “Do Any Motorhome Manufacturers Either Fit Lithium as Standard Or Recommend Them?” he is clearly inferring that none do. If he is, he’s simply wrong again. EZA lithium batteries are being fitted to Frankia and Pilote motorhomes as well as to ones made by Morello which sell for well over £200,000.00. If the EZA batteries didn’t do what is claimed of them, do you think that these manufacturers would be using them? In the UK, we are currently supplying half a dozen or more motorhome manufacturers and are talking to many more about fitting them as an option or as original equipment. Alan says that he tested an EZA battery which “gave back less than half its rated capacity” Apart from the fact that I don’t understand what he means, I find it odd – as the EZA distributor in the UK – that the owner of the battery hasn’t contacted us to complain. If you’d spent £3,000.00 or more on something that didn’t work as promised, wouldn’t you say something to the people who supplied it??!

 

3) Alan makes several comments referring to the fact that LiFePO4 lithium batteries can be easily damaged. You’d think he’d know that any decent LiFePO4 battery designed for use as a “leisure battery” has a built-in BMS (battery management system) which protects the battery from the damage which he describes. He’s also correct that, if a lithium battery is installed incorrectly, it just won’t work as it should and, indeed, could be damaged. So, always use a supplier who knows what they’re doing.

 

4) Finally, if lithium batteries are as useless as Alan suggests, why is it that so many of the people who write for MMM (including some of their most knowledgeable technical specialists) have installed them including – believe it or not Alan – in a brand new Hymer. So, although Alan is undoubtedly very knowledgeable about many subjects, when he writes about certain things, I would advise taking what he says with several pinches of salt. When it comes to lithium batteries in motorhomes, as he says, he has no experience whatever and what he says in his various posts is not necessarily wrong but is highly misleading.

 

5) Colin says “From what i've seen to date Lithium needs to come down in price by a huge amount to make it cost effective against lead acid for motorhome use, and as you say it would seem to not be a straight swap vis a vis charging, so still not a viable option.” Colin is simply giving us his opinion and then repeating a misleading comment by Alan. And Colin’s bike battery is not an LiFePO4 battery. So, what is the actual point of your comments Colin? This is why I usually avoid forums at all costs. Sorry, no offence meant!

 

6) Tonyg3nwl says that LiPO batteries are a fire risk. That’s as maybe Tony but we’re not talking about LiPO batteries so, sorry, but your comment is irrelevant.

 

7) Billggski refers to Li-ion batteries. Again, we’re not talking about this kind of battery Bill!

 

8) Alan again gets into a tizz when he refers to the information on the RoadPro website. Yes, we know that an LiFePO4 battery can be damaged if treated in certain ways. So can any piece of equipment and that, again, is why it’s important to get a lithium battery installed by people who know what they’re talking about. Why pick on LiFePO4 batteries?

 

9) Derek makes a point of checking the warranty conditions of the NDS lithium batteries and says that returning a battery under warranty to Italy would be expensive. He then states “The only UK agent for NDS Energy equipment seems to be RoadPro.” So, Derek, why do you think you would need to return a battery to Italy? RoadPro is in Daventry! Incidentally, have you read the small print in the warranty of every appliance in your motorhome or, indeed, the warranty of the motorhome itself?

 

I think that’s every point addressed but, if you have any questions, please ask me. If you would like to go ahead with installing a lithium battery, get in touch with me and I can assure you that, like all our other customers, you will be very, very satisfied. You have my personal guarantee!

 

Best wishes,

 

Andy Harris

Managing Director