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Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
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userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 July 2008 6:49 PM
Subject: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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This is a new thread concerning these matters after the original one ran out of 'server space'.
It had been running since January and had nearly 40,000 hits in that time with 800 postings. If, after viewing this update and precis, you want to review the whole sorry saga, it commenced on January 17 under the title of 'Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems. I spelt the 'Peugeot' bit wrong. Bad typing mainly, I hope.

Briefly for those of you who aren't aware of the issues it appears that a significant proportion of the new X250 base vehicles manufactured at the Sevel plant in Italy and being marketed as Fiat Ducatos, Peugeot Boxers, and Citroen Relays have a defect which manifests itself in a severe juddering in the transmission when the vehicle is reversed uphill. The steeper the hill becomes, and the worse the juddering gets. Many owners have also complained about this occurring on level grass surfaces. Smoking clutches has also been another regular occurrence when the vehicle has been reversed up an incline.
The complaints data, gathered by myself and MMM magazine, also highlighted that whilst all models seem to be affected the vast majority are from owners of those models equipped with the 6 speed gearboxes. They range from medium wheel base van conversions right through to tag axle giants.
When owners have complained to the suppliers Fiat have described the juddering as a 'characteristic' of the vehicle, and then told them things like 'it is working within operating parameters' or 'as designed'.
This juddering however has caused gearbox failures (reverse gear coming into contact with the synchromesh cone on 2nd gear whilst juddering up steep hills) and many many clutch failures.
Bearing in mind that some owners will not be faced with these situatons very often the implications for long term ownership and out of warranty failures is worrying considering the extra stresses put on the drive train components by the juddering.
Several hundred owners have complained to Fiat and Peugeot (Citroen aren't really a signifcant player in the motorhome market) and both manufacturers have simply ignored these complaints.
There are rumours of an imminent fix being made available by Peugeot (who have now conceded to some owners that there is indeed a universal defect) but we shall have to wait and see which models are affected and whether these rumours turn into action.
Fiat meanwhile are still denying everything.


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-07-24 6:51 PM
userrupert123
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Andy pleased the van ran well and hope you had a good trip. Look for ward to some reports and pictures in the future. I have now done 5000 miles in my new Fiat and it to has run without fault and sorry still no judder. Have done various weeks in UK and a five week trip to Europe, just got back from the Royal Welsh show and am off to Scotland in a week for around five weeks. Hopefully things will continue to run as they should, the judder thing has been a little quiet with you away and most postings really just 'bumps' or daft comments mainly from people who have never driven or owned a new Fiat or similar. Keep up the good work and hopefully one day something may happen.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Folk are still attempting to put posts on the long running thread, but it will will now have to be treated as defunct as they will not show up.
Please use this one instead.
If regular users can keep this one above the other until it disappears we (the Fiat/Peugeot owners would be grateful.
Many thanks.
usercolin
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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My post that got lost on other thread

There are reports of some salesmen claiming a fix, this is not so according to a local dealer
userClive
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Welcome back Andy and Marrion, Hope to see you at Malvern? Or are you still en route to Turkey, Greece or whatever?

Just use the forward gears OK!
C.

userAndyStothert
Posted: 25 July 2008 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Clive, nope we're back, that Wifi thing isn't all its cracked up to be if you're poor, tight, and naturally northern like us.

We await a confirmation from Peugeot that they are intending to fix the problem on 5 speed models with lower ratio reverse gear being sent out to dealers early next year, plus as an interim measure a remapping of the ECU to give a bit more torque at low revs.
However the 6 speed gearbox (which is the worst affected) is sealed unit which has to be returned to the factory for any modifications - and there are doubts (from more learned folk than I) that the reverse gear can be changed in the 6 speed box due to the internal layout - without a different casing. If so this is a serious problem for Fiat and the rest of us.
Which means (we think) that Fiat will still be very reluctant to sort existing owners out with 6 speed versions, and that until we get a definite commitment, in writing, to either extend the warranties or or fix them, the campaign to erode public confidence in this vehicle must be maintained.
usermike 202
Posted: 26 July 2008 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Andy thanks for all of your efforts. I was scared to take my van 130/6 speed/low profile out and in the end after 6 months I gave up. Although it cost more I sold to a dealer ( would not sell privately as I could not in all concience lumber someone else) and bought another coachbuilt on Ford. Will still follow the Saga and hope that it gets sorted. When talking to current/future owners I always mention this forum so that they can make an informed decision.
Regards
Mike
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 26 July 2008 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Andy, as I posted on another thread, the situation has certainly convinced me not to buy on the new Sevel chassis and instead we have gone for a late ('55) previously owned fiat van conversion.

I believe that the complaints made by motorhome owners are just the tip of the iceberg and that many drivers of the commercial van variant are either not aware of the problem or are not concerned enough to report it as it is not their 'pride and joy' and life savings wrapped up into one.

Given the response by Fiat I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them wait out the current storm and then bring out the 'facelift' version in two years time with a modified drive train. Should that happen we will almost certainly look again at the X250 on our next van as there is so much else that is very good about it. However, the watchword for would be buyers of used X250 motorhomes in the future, if that should happen, will be BUYER BEWARE.

My sympathies are with you and all the other owners who are affected and I truly hope that sufficient pressure can be brought about to encourage the manufacturers to accept the problem and inst*tute a universal solution.

Best regards, David
userClive
Posted: 26 July 2008 9:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Hi again Andy & Marrion,
I am sure that all readers will appreciate your update. Thanks

Its noticebale how Renault and Ford are bit by bit taking over the motorhome business previously held by Fiat/Peugeot with durable vehicles.

We look forward to insulting you at the next show.

Best regards to you both

C&J

userAndyStothert
Posted: 27 July 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Anyone who really wants to help put pressure on Fiat could consider the following course of action-
Go to a local motorhome dealer, tell them you're thinking of changing the van, but have heard about all these complaints of juddering in reverse, broken gearboxes and failed clutches, then note (exactly) what the salesman has to say. Get his/her name then post the response on here, naming the dealer and salesperson.
It would have to be accurate and truthful to be both legal and helpful, but may discourage the kind of lies presently being told by some dealers sales persons to potential buyers, and reward the good honest ones.
I can't stress enough the need for accuracy, but after a few it would certainly have some effect.
userClive
Posted: 27 July 2008 10:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Perhaps even better would be to have the expression of concerns and responce from the salesperson in the form of en email interchange?

i.e. show lots of interest on the first visit, get salespersons direct email address, then proffer your concerns.

Afterwards copy and paste onto the forum.
Bingo.

userlibby
Posted: 27 July 2008 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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A message to Rupert123

Henry,

Just because non Fiat owners make comments about the gearbox problem does not make them worthy of riddicule as you suggest above by referring to their contribution as "daft comments"

I take your wording as very being of a very unpleasant att*tude to those who whilst not being Fiat owners are trying to assist where neccessary those owners in a 'no win situation'

I'm sure most M/H owners would assist any owner regardless of the make of vehicle. Henry's view appears to be that Fiat are gods gift to the industry. No maker is that good.

There have been interesting comments about the M/H industry that can relate to any vehicle and that we should all be aware of. Fiat (at this moment in time) has a problem. It could be another make next year. Lets all be aware that problems can exist.

We all learn from designers errors that are dicussed at forum level and are therefore wiser when making our own choice of M/H. So please don't knock anyone who adds their piece, some forum contributors are extreamly knowledgeable when it comes to business and vehicle engineering.

In closing may we request what industry Henry is or was involved in so we may ascertain his belief that Fiat can do no wrong.

LB
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 28 July 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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AndyStothert - 2008-07-27 9:48 PM

Anyone who really wants to help put pressure on Fiat could consider the following course of action-
Go to a local motorhome dealer, tell them you're thinking of changing the van, but have heard about all these complaints of juddering in reverse, broken gearboxes and failed clutches, then note (exactly) what the salesman has to say. Get his/her name then post the response on here, naming the dealer and salesperson.
It would have to be accurate and truthful to be both legal and helpful, but may discourage the kind of lies presently being told by some dealers sales persons to potential buyers, and reward the good honest ones.
I can't stress enough the need for accuracy, but after a few it would certainly have some effect.


Hi Andy

I think the general idea that effective pressure would be best coming from the dealer network (as the manufacturers and converters are more likely to listen to them and act) is the way that action is more likely to be achieved - especially if they decide not to place forward orders on particular base vehicles.

In my own case I have to say that the dealers I approached did not try to pretend that the problem didn't exist but, in both cases, were attempting to minimise the problem by saying that within the total amount of vans that Fiat produce those that are affected are a tiny, tiny percentage.

My response has been that a) do drivers of commercial derivatives care or even notice that there is a problem? and, b) that this is little comfort if you are the one who does get one of the examples that is affected - and, worse, that the manufacturer (via the dealer/converter network) are doing nothing about it.

However. I shall ensure (now that I have made my decision not to buy on the chassis) that both dealerships are aware of my reasons for not buying. That way, at least, they know that the issue is directly affecting their sales.


Regards, David
userAndy T
Posted: 28 July 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Andy,
Interested to see your post about Peugeot possibly sorting the five speed problem by changing reverse gear and remapping the ECU for more torque at lower revs. Do you know if Fiat have the same intention?
Last visit to the Fiat dealer for a "cure" for the incurable water in engine bay issue they did a "software upgrade" which seemed to increase the fuel consumption, but may have reduced the judder.
Apart from that I have to admit that my five speed is better now it has a few thousand miles on the clock and was no trouble in some fairly steep reversing situations in Brittany recently, but as a resale issue it would be good to have a "cure" registered.
Thanks again for your work on the problem.
Andy T
userzulurita
Posted: 28 July 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Well my 6 speed Fiat 130 multijet is still juddering!

This may be on inclines but also on flat uneven surfaces, as well as flat surfaces. I would say it judders more than it doesn't.

I have great anxieties everytime I have to reverse, especially on grass at campsites or rally fields. One day I guess it will go bang and I will be stuck!!

I wrote to Fiat UK from France as I was very unhappy with the vehicles performance whilst touring there for 3 months. Just received a standard letter to have it checked at my local dealer. That seems to be a waste of time as the dealers cannot do anything at present.

Although I love my new motorhome this issue is giving me great anxiety and stress, not what I need. so it may well be a Ford based motorhome in the near future!
userbognormike
Posted: 28 July 2008 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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is there an over-enthusiastic expletive filter in use? I notice two words above - "attitude" and "institute" that have had the i between the two t's starred out
userbognormike
Posted: 28 July 2008 4:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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or maybe they were posted as that
userkelly58
Posted: 28 July 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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My Peugeot is booked in at Taylors Peugeot Boston in the morning for an 8 point VOSA recall which is to include gearbox and transmission. They did the water ingress scuttle replacement not long after we bought the MH early in 2007 and has been dry eversince.

I will keep you posted with the results although mine doe's not judder much but I am a steady driver especially in reverse ,but i have not had much of an oppourtunity to reverse uphill either. Its a 2.2hdi 5 speed gross weight of 3 tons.

userrupert123
Posted: 28 July 2008 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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libby - 2008-07-27 11:53 PM

A message to Rupert123

Henry,

Just because non Fiat owners make comments about the gearbox problem does not make them worthy of riddicule as you suggest above by referring to their contribution as "daft comments"

I take your wording as very being of a very unpleasant att*tude to those who whilst not being Fiat owners are trying to assist where neccessary those owners in a 'no win situation'

I'm sure most M/H owners would assist any owner regardless of the make of vehicle. Henry's view appears to be that Fiat are gods gift to the industry. No maker is that good.

There have been interesting comments about the M/H industry that can relate to any vehicle and that we should all be aware of. Fiat (at this moment in time) has a problem. It could be another make next year. Lets all be aware that problems can exist.

We all learn from designers errors that are dicussed at forum level and are therefore wiser when making our own choice of M/H. So please don't knock anyone who adds their piece, some forum contributors are extreamly knowledgeable when it comes to business and vehicle engineering.

In closing may we request what industry Henry is or was involved in so we may ascertain his belief that Fiat can do no wrong.

LB


OK Bill, no problem. I have an engineering degree and was involved in the motor trade for over twenty years. I admit this was a while ago as since I have been in North Wales have done other things. I am now retired, well sort of, but still buy and sell cars as a part time thing when not on holiday. I keep my motor trade contacts up so do know a little about how it all works. If I give the impression Fiat can do no wrong then my fault but suggest you read my past posts before throwing accusations about. I am well aware that all have problems, I have had to deal with them in the past, but just try and put the other side. The daft comments refered to just that, not to anyone but people like that cornish bloke, although I confess do not know what he is on about most of the time. It was very noticeable that when Andy was away the subject almost died apart from the bump and daft comments bit, nearly zero new complaints. Now I have aways maintained if you have a problem the manufacturer should fix it but this campaign, while it can do no harm, is not the way. Andys latest suggestion that we should all telephone dealers and tell lies about wanting to purchase a van is completely out of order and am surprised the post has not been removed. NOW I WILL SAY IT ONE LAST TIME EVERYONE WITH A REAL PROBLEM I WISH YOU WELL AND HOPE YOU GET IT FIXED.

Edited by rupert123 2008-07-28 7:10 PM
usermike 202
Posted: 28 July 2008 7:45 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I think that Andy is right, if the manufacturers/convertors, Fiat and the dealers tell lies then we need to try some crafty round a bout ways of tricking them into telling the truth. The Police call it 'interrogation technique' to eventually get "suspects" to tell the truth. Rupert - confession is good for the soul, so we will be helping all of those concerned who find it difficult to come clean.

So guys and gals make the calls, send the E-mails
userMel B
Posted: 28 July 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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rupert123 - 2008-07-28 7:08 PM

... Now I have aways maintained if you have a problem the manufacturer should fix it but this campaign, while it can do no harm, is not the way. Andys latest suggestion that we should all telephone dealers and tell lies about wanting to purchase a van is completely out of order and am surprised the post has not been removed.


It's called market research ... if there is to be any hope of getting something done, then making the dealers realise that things are not as miniscule as they seem to want it to be, is one of the options.

The dealers are claiming that the problem only affects a "tiny percentage" of vans, but what actual research have they done to check this is really the case? None. They are just taking Fiat's etc's word for it. If they bothered to do a proper check of the situation with a sensible survey sample size where the owners were asked if their van's did this, or the van's themselves were properly tested, then their claim may have some validity, but, as they have not, then it is actually meaningless. It doesn't matter if there is only 0.001% of vans affected or 10% of vans affected, they actually do not know, yet they are claiming that it is only a very small number. What they actually mean is that they 'believe' it is only a small number ... this is not the same thing.

Again, though if you are one of the people with a 'faulty' van, whether it is 0.001% or 10% doesn't matter to you, you are 100% affected!
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 July 2008 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Henry,
I wasn't suggesting that people telephone dealers and tell lies - I was suggesting that folk could VISIT them and show an interest in the new stock (something we are always doing) and ask about the current juddering problems. And as you must have noticed I was insisting on the truth being told.
And as for your suggestion that there have been no new complainst since we went away perhaps you could read the editor's comments in this months MMM.
They have had over a hundred since then. Plus I had another twenty waiting on my computer.
And whilst I'm at it, your comments about MMM being small circulation show your lack of undertstanding of the motorhome market. MMM has a circulation of 40,000 plus and it's fact that it gets passed on to other motorhome enthusiasts when digested by the original buyer. Which means every issue is probably viewed by well over 100,000 committed motorcaravanners.
This is a much better strike rate than a small piece in a national, where only a very tiny percentage (see we can all play that game even if we don't know the facts) will be motorhome owners.
But I do thank you for keeping the debate going with your ill considered ideas, and as I said, despite them, know you to be a gentleman.
usercolin
Posted: 28 July 2008 9:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Well it may be that the resale value is now dropping, I've seen couple of Twins on new chassis for sale at lower price than on old chassis, gf and me have been having a few discusions about new van and dispite Twin being our favorite layout and design we may not wait for a fix but instead get Monaco/Monte Carlo and mod to suit our requirements. If Fiat will not sort this what if any other problems come to light?
Is there any moves afoot for a class action? there must be enough owners and exowners to warrent one now.
usercolin
Posted: 29 July 2008 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Whilst andy considers how to edit the "old" major problems for those who are unaware here is a link to it
http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10368&start=1
userrupert123
Posted: 30 July 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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AndyStothert - 2008-07-28 9:15 PM

Henry,
I wasn't suggesting that people telephone dealers and tell lies - I was suggesting that folk could VISIT them and show an interest in the new stock (something we are always doing) and ask about the current juddering problems. And as you must have noticed I was insisting on the truth being told, unlike the approach of the manufacturers.
Fiat are telling lies, some of the dealers are telling lies, so what is wrong with a little subterfuge and a dose of their own medicine?
And as for your suggestion that there have been no new complainst since we went away perhaps you could read the editor's comments in this months MMM.
They have had over a hundred since then. Plus I had another twenty waiting on my computer.
And whilst I'm at it, your comments about MMM being small circulation show your lack of undertstanding of the motorhome market. MMM has a circulation of 40,000 plus and it's fact that it gets passed on to other motorhome enthusiasts when digested by the original buyer. Which means every issue is probably viewed by well over 100,000 committed motorcaravanners.
This is a much better strike rate than a small piece in a national, where only a very tiny percentage (see we can all play that game even if we don't know the facts) will be motorhome owners.
But I do thank you for keeping the debate going with your ill considered ideas, and as I said, despite them, know you to be a gentleman.


Andy your words were 'go into dealer and say you are thinking of buying a new van' now if you are not thinking about buying one this is a lie,very small one I agree. While you were away a thread was started to try and collat problems and people were asked what their van was and what happen with the reverse vibration. Now this was a good idea from someone who appears to know what he is talking about, what happened, well almost nothing, the problem seemed to have disapeared over night. I did say my guess at the circulation of 30,000 was just that, a guess, I said I did not know but you must admit not a bad guess. I could find no reference to MMM figures so it may be one of those magazines who's circulation is not audited, however stand by my statement it is very small and a good piece in the tabloids would be better. My own feelings are not as many people know about the problems as the enthusiast on this forum would like to believe. As someone with a personal interest I have asked four other motorhome owners on campsites who had Sevel based vans if the had problems with reverse, three said no and had never heard of the debate, one had heardabout it but had not come across a steep hill he needed to reverse up so did not know if he had a problem. the problem is nowhere as widely known about as we would like. It needs to spread beyond the confines of the forum and specialised magazine fraternity.

Edited by rupert123 2008-07-30 6:29 PM
usertp002c784tp002c784tp
Posted: 30 July 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Andy's point about telling a little white lie about buying a new fiat, at last years York show I asked 4 large motorhome dealers about the water ingress in the new Fiat x250 they all said they had never heard of the problem even though it had been well publicised, I was looking to buy a new van but said I would not touch the X250 because of the water problems.

Terry
userAndyStothert
Posted: 30 July 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Henry,
I agree that widening the awarenes of this defect to a national platform would be a good thing. I've tried, but they don't seem to be interested in such an ancient well off middle class minority as us.
If you can make it happen we would be very grateful.
We did get the van magazines involved briefly, but ownership, usage and magazine buying patterns are so different that they lost interest.
I mean if you're van driver a bit of a judder or the odd duff gearbox is of no consequence. And White Van Man doesn't do a lot of uphill reversing in the short life of a fleet vehicle. We are a very different animal.
But as I said any help is welcome, so get your pen out rather than just rubbish what others are doing.
Or even suggest something the rest of us haven't thought of?

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-07-30 10:34 PM
userJohn Day
Posted: 30 July 2008 10:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Andy
Please don't be in the least put off by the doubters or moaners the vast majority of us agree with you entirely, fortunately for me you are able to put things in writing that I'm unable to get down on paper, it's in my head but never makes sense, or is to long winded when I try to write it down.

My Dethleffs Esprit I7870L, Fiat, 3.0L, 5 Ton, 6 Gear, Tag Axle (see it's got everthing to fit the problem) has got judder in reverse uphill and smokes like a chimney even going forward when trying to manoeuvre on full lock uphill, the 1300 sugested rpm only seems to make it smoke worse, and for those who are now going to say it's my driving, like Fiat have, I've driven about 1 1/2 Million miles in company vehicles and never had a clutch.

So keep it going Andy, even for those like me that are not so good at getting it down on paper.

I have written to Fiat, Dethleffs, the dealer and MMM

John
usercolin
Posted: 31 July 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Similier to you john, my GTW would have been around 5.5t with trailer, was about to order when andy's thread came up, luckily I realised not a hope in hell of that working.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 31 July 2008 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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For any of you who have the judders and are wondering what to do but haven't seen our info sheet just email me and I will send you one - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

All it is is list of who whinge at to firstly protect yourself, and secondly to try and make Fiat and Peugeot sort this mess out.

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