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Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
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userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 19 August 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Colin has answered saying the fix is for the 5 peugeot speed box. Does this mean we may be closer to a resolution?
userAndyStothert
Posted: 19 August 2008 8:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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The simple answer (and I've been busy finding out during the last few months) about the question of shared parts between the Peugeot Boxer and Fiat Ducato is that the only difference is that Fiat use the Iveco 2.3 litre engine as the mid range powerplant whilst Peugeot use a 'chipped' version of the 2.2 litre engine which powers the 100 series vehicles with both badges.
The 'chipped' version is attached to the same 6 speed box which Fiat use with the 2.3 litre engine. The 5 speed box is usesd by both on the 100 series, and the 6 speed box is also used in both Peugeot and Fiat 160 ranges.
All (as far as we know) the damaged gearboxes and clutches have occurred on the 130 and 160 series with 6 speed boxes. Personally I haven't driven a single 6 speed variant that doesn't have the destructive judder, but have sampled a coudp of 5 speed ones that arent nearly as bad.
After speaking to the Peugeot people a few weeks ago and them saying that the lower reverse gear ratio would be fitted to all vehicles, a later conversation with Ian Sedgewick (the PR manager) seemed to contradict this slightly in that he said the 6 speed box is the one subject to the lower ratio reverse gear, and I understood him to mean that the 5 speed versions will only get the ECU re-map - and then see what happens.
They said that they will confirm this ASAP.
Meanwhile on Planet Fiat, where they build all these vehicles, they are still keeping quiet and hoping that it will all go away without them having to fix our vans.
Another much more disturbing fact to emerge from the Italian Judderers is that they say there are literally thousands of motorhome specific vehicle stockpiled at the Sevel plant, and that every day the stockpiles get bigger. If the gearbox mods are introduced into the production line in January (a big IF) it may be as long as JULY before any of these find their way to a motorhome production line, and consequently NEXT OCTOBER before a modified non judderer (and gearbox/clutch eater) is available as a motorhome.

So if you're thinking of buying one, and the salesman tells you it is all sorted out walk away - he's fibbing.
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 19 August 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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yesterday I drove a Peugeot variant with the 6 speed box and it was by far the worst vibrater I've encountered to date! It only juddered/vibrated when slipping the clutch, once it was fully engaged it was OK although a bit whiney. I advised the owners to report it to Peugeot along with the water ingress issues that have not been dealt with on his one week old van . Gut feeling, now that I've experienced a bad 'un is that reverse gear is indeed too high and therefore requires a more than fair amount of clutch slip for a controlled take off, especially on hills! The clutch was also very sharp, certainly more so than the rest I've driven.

D.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 20 August 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Oh come on Dave, don't be so modest. You must have encountered much worse vibrators in your long and illustrious time in the top shelf magazine trade.

At least the Peugeot owner has the prospect of a cure to hold onto - unlike all the Fiat owners.
On the subject of good uns and bad uns ours (gearbox number 3, but orginal sharp clutch) is quite a modest judderer, but is taken to places where life does mean reversing up hills, and obviously can't stand the conditions.
Nowhere on the Fiat packaging did it say 'Can't reverse up steep hills without damaging the gearbox'.
What's now worrying me is that if Fiat don't fix them when the warranty runs out this vehicle will be a liablilty.
I'd have thought the dealers would have been kicking up a real fuss with Fiat right now as the future doesn't look good for these vans. But no, they use the defect to get them cheap, then deny there is one when they sell them. Best of both worlds.
For the October NEC Show we have a lovely idea forming to cause absolute havoc for those selling Fiat motorhomes, and the beauty of it is that it is legal, effective and won't even get volunteers thrown out.
If you want to turn up and help let me know.
It will cost about a fiver each for essential equipment.
usercolin
Posted: 20 August 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I'm sure there must be some decent salemen out there somewhere, BUT, most I've dealt with appear to be people that are rejected by the motor trade for being too dodgy.
Andy whats the latest on which gearbox Peugeot intead to modify 5 or 6 speed?
Re the stockpiled vans, the next thing will be to find out chassis number when Fiat (hopefully) mod van and how to spot differance between an 'old' box and new one, but I'm proboly getting to far in advance on this one
userRayjsj
Posted: 20 August 2008 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Oh Dear, it really is going to be a minefield buying a second hand Sevel based Motorhome or panel van conversion. Even a 'new' one for the next two years or so,until the present stock of chassis are cleared from stock.
Any,Any other base vehicle but don't even think of a 'Sevel' it's just too much of a gamble. Come on Fiat, the 'ball' is in your court.
userItexuk
Posted: 21 August 2008 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Just had 12 month service and 5 recalls done, one which was a re map of the ECU. My August 2007 Ducato 130 X250 did vibrate a small amount in reverse but not enough to worry me. Pleased to report that after the re map things have improved 100% and now little or no vibration in reverse.
usermick&ann
Posted: 21 August 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Do you mind telling us what 5 recalls you had done.
userItexuk
Posted: 21 August 2008 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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mick&ann - 2008-08-21 11:08 AM

Hi Do you mind telling us what 5 recalls you had done.


I think they were:
Re pack grease on steering arm
Replace a fuse. Not sure what on.
Re map on ECU to help stop judder in reverse
Seal scuttle to stop water ingress
Spray 2 coats of silicone on and around injectors to stop rust.
userAllanF
Posted: 21 August 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hello Everyone
Just about to pick up my first new motorhome, an Autotrail Chieftain SE with a Fiat 160 engine tied to a Fiat Automatic 6 speed gearbox, has anybody had judder problems with the Auto box. Any advise welcome.
Thanks
usercatinou
Posted: 21 August 2008 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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It's been confirmed! We definitely have "the judder"

We have just had our first service on our 3 litre Fiat Ducato and having registered a possible judder problem in May, the Fiat dealer has confirmed we have "it". They have confirmed this to Fiat, quoting our Fiat reference from May and say that we are now "in the system" for a future recall.

Apparently, as long as it has been inspected and registered within the warranty period that should safeguard us, even when "out of warranty".

We will now see how long it takes ................
userfred grant
Posted: 21 August 2008 7:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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u is dealing with fiat, not mercedes, catinou my biddy. best of luck.

f
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 August 2008 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I do hope all you other sufferers haven't let Fiat fob you off with all sorts of bull. .
Ensure you have an official case number for your complaint is the first thing. Don't let the dealers tell you a recall is on the way - it isn't - Fiat have not yet admitted there is a fault and don't want to because of the cost of stripping every gearbox and replacing the reverse gear.
Fiat also say that there is no recall for an ECU change to alleviate the juddering because there is no fault so why should they alter the ECU.
The post that says the judder is minimal probably hasn't tried it on a decent gradient.
Ours doesn't judder at all on the flat and next week it receives its third gearbox because of this defect.
So OK we drive in hilly places, and he may not, but what of the next unsuspecting owner? He/she may expect it to be able to reverse up a hill and break the box in the process.
So come on get off y'r inept bums and get whinging to Fiat. Everyone.
userItexuk
Posted: 22 August 2008 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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AndyStothert - 2008-08-22 5:19 PM

I do hope all you other sufferers haven't let Fiat fob you off with all sorts of bull. .
Ensure you have an official case number for your complaint is the first thing. Don't let the dealers tell you a recall is on the way - it isn't - Fiat have not yet admitted there is a fault and don't want to because of the cost of stripping every gearbox and replacing the reverse gear.
Fiat also say that there is no recall for an ECU change to alleviate the juddering because there is no fault so why should they alter the ECU.
The post that says the judder is minimal probably hasn't tried it on a decent gradient.
Ours doesn't judder at all on the flat and next week it receives its third gearbox because of this defect.
So OK we drive in hilly places, and he may not, but what of the next unsuspecting owner? He/she may expect it to be able to reverse up a hill and break the box in the process.
So come on get off y'r inept bums and get whinging to Fiat. Everyone.


Andy, All I can say is that when I booked my Ducato 130 in for it 12 month service I was told there was 5 recall to be done. One of them was a re map of the ECU, when I collected it I was told it had been done.
My judder IS minimal, ( Have reported it to my dealer) I must have a goodish one and YES I do drive it up hills. I live on a very steep private road and have to reverse it 50 metres to get it in my drive at least once a week.
If you want to check re ECU re map give Foray Motor Group a new Fiat dealer in Bridgwater Somerset a ring on 01278 727910 Mr Dave Vowles
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 August 2008 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Thanks for that - I'll ring them on Tuesday.
It may be that Fiat ARE going to attempt to get rid of as many complaints as possible with a remap of the ECU but are unwilling to 'cough' to the fact in public.
But so far they are still refusing to talk about the juddering as a defect.
I'll let you know what everybody says - if Fiat will discuss it.
userColinC
Posted: 22 August 2008 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Andy
Thanks for the clarification re my request about the differences if any between Fiat and Peugeot gearboxes.

Hi Itexuk
There was a recall number 5247 (Fiat call them campaigns!) dating from last year which involved a modification to the ECU. This was one of 5 'recalls' done on my 'van (2.3 litre/130) during October and December last year. The ECU mod was actually done before we took delivery of the van so I don't know if the judder is better or worse ; it is certainly there now.
It would be interesting to know if your ECU remap was indeed number 5247 ; and if not what number is it, when did Fiat introduce it, and which engines(s) does it apply to? Something for Andy to have in mind also when it talks to your garage.

Colin
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 August 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I've been asked by another poor soul who is conducting the still ongoing water ingress battle with Fiat to ask you all to sign a web petition which is to be found on
http://www.petition.co.uk/water ingress to engine re fiat peugeot

Any bad publicity for Fiat is good publicity at the moment so go and 'sign' it.
userClive
Posted: 23 August 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Peculiar Andy,
The petition web site says :-
"Petition does not exist"

Does this mean its never been created or that it has been withdrawn?

C.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 August 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Clive,
I've put the address in which I got, but perhaps there should be no gaps between the last few words - the Fiat and Peugeot bits.
You know how fearful and unskilled I am with all this web stuff. Well everything invented since my clockwork Meccano bits really. And the old Fiat 500 in the garage.
userfred grant
Posted: 23 August 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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your fiat 500 would be in the garage wouldn't it andy my biddy. gearbox problems perchance?

us do think you aught to rethink the maker of your personal transport me ansum.

ritesedfred
userrowley
Posted: 23 August 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I think that this might be it-- http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

I understand that it was to close today.
There was over 270 signatures yesterday.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 August 2008 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Fred,
We've had that Fiat 500 for years and it's still as good as the day it was built in 1972. It's never had a new clutch, has a 'crash' box which has been totally reliable, it will reverse up a mountain side, and is worth ten times what we paid for it all those years ago. Oh and it does 60 to the gallon.

But of course, what with forty years of automotive prgress to improve things, our new Fiat Ducato is much much better. Well it should have been, however I suspect it won't still be with us in four years never mind nearly forty.
And I use a bike as personal transport. One of those with rod brakes and an oil bath chain.
And.....how come no matter how many doses of drivel I put on here my score stays at 219?

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-23 9:05 PM
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 24 August 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Andy:

Your 'score' is a total linked to your Profile and it's incremented by one each time you post to any of the O&ALive forums. But the revised total is not applied just to your most recent posting, it's applied to ALL your past postings as well. It's not indicating "This posting is Andy Stothert's 219th", it's indicating that Andy Stothert has (across all the O&ALive forums on this website) posted 219 times.

If your next posting is a reply to this one, you'll notice that your score will then clock up by one to 220 and so will the score on all your earlier postings.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 August 2008 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Derek, thanks for that. I'm sure I'll develop the necessary deductive powers to understand it one day. So it should now read 220 right the way through?

Meanwhile if there is anybody out there with a new a new X250 Boxer or Ducato based motorthome with a judder in the transmission system whilst releasing the clutch in reverse and you haven't complained officially to Fiat or Peugeot please do so.
Also there is an information sheet available for sufferers to read and which spells out how to ensure Fiat have recorded your concerns and offers a few suggestions about how to go about making Fiat find asolution for the destructive juddering in the transmission.
Just email me for a copy - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
As most of you will know Fiat are still denying a fault exists whilst Peugeot have admitted that it does, and will be taking steps to rectify the Peugeot Boxers by early next year.
Quite how two identical gearboxes in (almost) identical vans coming off the same production line can be different is beyond everybody except Fiat.
If you have a Peugeot Boxer X250 contact customer care and ask that your vehicle is given both the ECU re-map and the new lower ratio reverse gear. They won't come looking for you if you haven't got an official complaint in progress.
If you buy a new Ducato or Boxer based motorhome before September or October NEXT YEAR there is a good chance that it will have this destructive juddering in the transmission.
Ours goes in for its third gearbox on Tuesday.
userfred grant
Posted: 24 August 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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we'll all keep our fingers crossed for you andrew darling. if the operations successful fred is goin to celebrate with sum good old cornish cider, harvestin or no harvestin he says.

alice
userAndyStothert
Posted: 25 August 2008 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Most of you are probably aware that I'm attempting to keep this matter in motorhomers minds by way of a thread on both this and the motorhomefacts forum.
It is strange how different the two forums tend to run, but what we did know all along is that the motorhome manufacturers have been watching the other one more closely, and that we had a harder time getting universal support there than here.
However when the facts became apparent (that the defect is a universal one) the other forum has become just as supportive as this.
Whether it is the threat of more radical action, or a genuine desire to try to sort this out, I can't judge, but Swift have told me that they will be having another and very earnest conversation with Fiat next week in a bid to resolve this fiasco.
Whether Peugeot's welcome admission of the design defect and their desire to resolve things is a factor we know not, but is should be as it tells us that all the motorhome manufacturers are building on a vehicle which has a recognised defect.
A very scary place to be in legal terms, and the dealers should now be even more aware of this issue as it is them who are the ones ultimately responsible.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-25 4:47 PM
userspud
Posted: 26 August 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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hi guys,

I've been reading this thread with interest. just bought (picking it up 12th. September) second hand 2006 Fiat Swift Lifestyle 530lp with 2.0 litre engine, from Highbridge caravans. Is the 'judder' or water ingress likely to cause me concern?

Admittedly, didn't reverse uphill during test drive, but having come acrosss this thread, i'd like to know of any problems I may encounter before I part with the balance of the money.

Thanks for ny replies.
userTracker
Posted: 26 August 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


It seems that the judder and water issues only affect the newest incarnation of the Ducato/ Boxer also known as X250 and distinguished from it's predecessor by the upturned headlamps extending almost up to the windscreen together with repeater indicators in the door mirrors.

Sitting beside and older model the differences are very clear, which they probably will be at the dealer's lot.

If you have bought one of they new bu##ers, be sure to give it a darned good test drive before you part with any more cash!

If, as I suspect being a 2.0 hdi of 2006 vintage, it's one of the previous models then there really are not too many issues to worry about as it was a well sorted van before being replaced by the new and mostly improved version and as long as it drives OK and the driving position suits you it should serve you well.

userspud
Posted: 26 August 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Thanks Rich,

That has put my mind at rest. Roll on the 12th.!!
useremmbeedee
Posted: 27 August 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Having just retired, we are considering a new motorhome & whilst researching the options came across this problem, (or "characteristic" if you believe Fiat).
We have never owned a motorhome before, although we did borrow a VW (1966 vintage) many years ago & quite enjoyed it.
TBH I had heard something about the reversing problem on Fiat Ducatos (vans, not MH's), even before we started looking at motorhomes, but have been amazed at the extent of the problem (as reported in MMM & on here) & Fiat's reaction to it. We obviously decided that whatever we bought would NOT be based on a Sevel chassis.
We visited the Malvern show & on every stand we visited we explained that we didn't want a Fiat/Peugeot based vehicle & the reasons why. Almost without exception, the salesmen said that it wasn't such a big problem & that we shouldn't worry about it as only a very tiny proportion of the vehicles were affected, if any. I didn't buy this line, but the problem we are having is that the vast majority of MH's seem to be built on the Sevel chassis & the layout we prefer seems to be very rare on anything else that we can afford. Salesmen state that we are excluding about 70% of the supply & that does seem to be true. Nevertheless, we have continued our search & have since visited many dealerships.
The worst reaction was at Brownhills Newark, where the salesman was very forceful in his denial of the problem, said it was caused by people who didn't know how to drive & that they had had no complaints. He did admit, however, that they had had people trying to cancel after leaving a deposit & subsequently discovering the problem. (They have refused to refund deposits in this situation). He also suggested that we should visit their service depot to check on this, & speak to their mechanics. We did so & were surprised to be informed by the young lady who seemed to be in charge of the service reception that it wouldn't be worth speaking to any of them as they had a complete change of staff recently & were thus all new & wouldn't know anything about it! Strange. She did say, however, that they HAD had complaints from a few owners. One in particular, Brownhills themselves thought was a problem & called in Fiat. Fiat's reaction? Not a problem.
We have now discovered a MH that we think would suit us & it is a Fiat, but based on the previous Ducato chassis. It is an Adria Coral S 680 SL, 57 reg & apparently ex-demo. It has a 2.3 JTD engine (110 HP) with the 5 speed gearbox. I haven't had a test drive yet, but am I correct in thinking that this vehicle should not be affected by the problem? As far as I can see, it is only the new version that suffers.
Finally, thanks for a very informative forum, we evidently have a lot more to learn yet!
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