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Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
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userAndyStothert
Posted: 27 August 2008 12:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Now that the Italians have had their holidays it seems that things on are on the move at Fiat.
As you all know there have been complaints all over Europe and in the end it seems Fiat are about to bow to the pressure.
Firstly Fiat have 'trialled' a modified gearbox and clutch in a motorhome in Italy and it now reverses up a slope of 27% without cooking the clutch, juddering 'significantly', or risking damage to the gearbox.
It appears that this modification now meets the rules in Italy.
The best they could do before was 16%.
Tests carried out on an Iveco 3.85 ton RWD van show that it will reverse up a slope of 40% without risk of damage, but its looking like that within the existing gearbox and the space available this is as good as Fiat can manage.
Word from Italy (not official yet) is that this modification is going to be available to us in late January, but involves a comlete stripdown and could be more than a week of a job to do it.
Fiat being Fiat there will be more cock-ups along the way, and they are not going to issue a recall so it will be up to owners to demand the work once an official statement is made to say this will be done.
Hopefully this will be soon.
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 27 August 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Hi emmbeedee - and welcome to the forum.

We have had a range of different motorhomes and were looking forward to changing this year to a new van on the highly regarded (present problems apart) Fiat/Sevel chassis. Without doubt there have been many improvements to the comfort and driving refinement of this model but we had to ask ourselves the same question - do we really want to take the chance of getting one of the vehicles affected? Worse, would we also want to go through the experience that Andy Stothert has to try and get a remedy?

The answers were emphatically no so we looked around and eventually have bought a 2005 model Fiat Ducato van conversion which suits our needs and, more importantly, is a model that has had all the wrinkles ironed out by several 'facelifts' over the last few years.

Because of the intransigence of Fiat I personally will avoid buying any new X250 based Sevel chassis van or indeed, any second hand (2007/08) model without written assurance that the problem has been corrected by Fiat. Rather wait until after the problem has been rectified in the (possibly 2009) next generation Ducato.

Regards, David
usercatinou
Posted: 27 August 2008 1:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Good news indeed Andy - many thanks from us and I am sure the other owners similarly affected, for all your hard work and publicity on this matter. We won't actually hold our breath but will certainly look out for any Fiat notices on the matter.

In spite of the problems with the new model, it (once sorted ) "knocks spots off our old one" - so far
userMelvin
Posted: 27 August 2008 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Well done Andy, hopefully will shall be nearer a solution
userBazza454
Posted: 27 August 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Glancing throught this months MMM it's interesting to see such large discounts being offered on new motorhomes, up to £10k in many instances, before any negotiation, and mainly on Fiat.

I realise that Fiat have the lions share of motorhome sales, and that there is a bit of a "credit crunch" at the moment, but I just wonder if all the publicity about the Fiat problems are beginning to bite at the dealerships.

Chatting to a friend who works for a large dealership over the weekend, he said that anything over £40k is difficult to sell at the moment, anything on a Fiat or a Peugeot is just about impossible.

Keep up the good work.

usercolin
Posted: 27 August 2008 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Bazza454 - 2008-08-27 1:51 PM

Glancing throught this months MMM it's interesting to see such large discounts being offered on new motorhomes, up to £10k in many instances, before any negotiation, and mainly on Fiat.

I realise that Fiat have the lions share of motorhome sales, and that there is a bit of a "credit crunch" at the moment, but I just wonder if all the publicity about the Fiat problems are beginning to bite at the dealerships.

Chatting to a friend who works for a large dealership over the weekend, he said that anything over £40k is difficult to sell at the moment, anything on a Fiat or a Peugeot is just about impossible.

Keep up the good work.


If you check prices of secondhand Adria Twins, new models are now selling cheaper than old model, this can only be due to reversing problem as layout and forward driving is much improved
useremmbeedee
Posted: 27 August 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Andy, what rules are these? Does this mean that it did not meet the rules in Italy previously? Are there rules in Italy about what incline a vehicle can climb in reverse
userTracker
Posted: 27 August 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Well done Andy for following this through with such vigour and my comments below are no reflection on your actions - rather a reflection on the actions of Fiat - again.

Any vehicle that will reverse up a 27% incline will be good enough for me - after all how often do you reverse up a 1 in 4 gradient anyway!

Whether or not the revised gearing will actually do this in real life is another matter as, like the 'official' fuel consumption figures for a car that are impossible to replicate in real life - we shall see!

I don't see how stripping and rebuilding a gearbox can take a week - even for a Fiat mechanic! Surely only a one day job at most for one who knows how to do it - which he would when tackling the second one!

As we live an hour (by van) from the nearest Fiat dealer and even more to the nearest Fiat Commercial dealer I think maybe we should still give the X250 a miss for a year or two!
usercolin
Posted: 27 August 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Well you know me, every silverlining has a dark cloud, whats the betting most vans won't qualify for a gearbox change, as VOSA don't rate this as a problem we don't have any rules that say "must be able to reverse up X% hill", so it will be up to Fiat to decide if your van needs a new box! I reacon the fights far from over and don't rely on buying new van yet hoping any judder will be fixed.

Edited by colin 2008-08-27 9:31 PM
userpkc
Posted: 28 August 2008 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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A matter of a pinion
I wandered Lakeland in high gear But all t’was not so well I fear,
to climb from sleepy forest glade, I selected pinion retrograde.
When all at once o’er vale and hills, came sounds of future garage bills.
Came a juddering, it’s source I feel, that poxy dual mass clutch flywheel.
With gnashing teeth,(the vans and mine) I hurried to the phone help line.
Complaint explained, the knave retorts, no such issue, come eat my shorts!
Increase the revs! Be more realistic, it's just a vehicle characteristic.
With girded loins, my courage plucked, “Nay Sir” said I “Yon box is
* beyond reasonable repair”
“Be off! How dare you ruin our slumber, here take this vehicle complaint number”
So duly chastened I did go, To await news from brave Andy and Mike Jago.
Now I covet blue ovals from afar, and wish upon three pointed star
All future movement to the fore. To places fond, to return no more.
The sayings true, Alas, alack! there really is no going back.

*Sorry, could'nt find a word that scanned.
Thanks to Andy Stothert for all his hard work.
usercolin
Posted: 28 August 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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pkc - 2008-08-28 9:02 AM


With girded loins, my courage plucked, “Nay Sir” said I “Yon box is
* beyond reasonable repair”

*Sorry, could'nt find a word that scanned.
Thanks to Andy Stothert for all his hard work.

usercatinou
Posted: 28 August 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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pkc - that was brilliant
userpkc
Posted: 28 August 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Thanks Catinou, just having my words worth.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 August 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I've collected the Fiat (the one with the sucked gearbox) from our dealers today and it still has the idler gear rattle whilst ticking over hot - has anyone else noticed this?
As far as the reverse gear ratio change goes this is far from a done-deal as yet, and until we get something in writing, the efforts to put Fiat under pressure must contiunue.

Now where's m'quill for another letter to Fiats,
To tell e'm they're such a bunch of nice chaps*

Sorry I just couldn't find a word to quite rhyme with Fiats.
usermikemoss
Posted: 28 August 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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pkc that's the best laugh I've had in ages. Well done indeed - fabulous!
userAndyStothert
Posted: 29 August 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Can any of you knowledgable sorts tell me why I'm having to log on every time I go to the forum nowadays when I neve had to before?

Our van returned from the menders again yesterday with a fresh gearbox and clutch and it's got to be said that whilst it still judders in reverse the new clutch has made it a lot more pleasant when taking off in first gear - all that jerkines and on/off tendency has gone.
There is still no word from Italy about the solution (lower reverse gear) and whilst it is now being openly talked about there, and, like Peugeot, offered to owners in Italy the staff at Fiat UK are refusing to say whether us lot here will get anything.
Back to square one? Well hopefully not, but the considerable costs are obvisously still being weighed up against lost sales if they don't offer a fix.

We are off again for a fortnight now doing that 4 letter word thing (work) so I'm sure I can rely on you shower to keep this matter at the front of the queue on the forum.

And any owner who isn't happy with the way their Ducato reverses, and hasn't made an official complaint should really get on with it sharpish.
userRayjsj
Posted: 30 August 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Intresting to read the test on the new Autocruise Pace by Jonathon Lloyd in this month's MMM, he describes reversing it, the gearbox sounded like someone 'kicking over a galvanised bucket full of bolts' Hmmmm, is this a 'fix' ???? no Juddering ??? thanks but no thanks ! (I've made a note of the Registration no. so as to avoid it like the plague,for when it gets sold on to some poor innocent). Such a shame as Autocruise(Swift) are really trying,and getting it right.
usercolin
Posted: 30 August 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Buying 'cheap' shoddy goods with a known problem, tarting then up with a few bits of imatation veneer and cloth on the walls then selling on to a unsuspecting punter is not 'realy trying and getting it right' at least not in my book, any manufacturer has a responsability to ensure the parts they use are fit for purpose, a year ago Swift could be excused not now.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 31 August 2008 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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AndyStothert - 2008-08-29 8:28 PM

Can any of you knowledgable sorts tell me why I'm having to log on every time I go to the forum nowadays when I neve had to before


No, I can't - but sometimes forum-member details seem to get lost and, every so often, I also have to re-logon.

Next time you logon, make sure the 'remember my details' box below the 'insert password' box is ticked, otherwise you'll have to re-logon each time.

If the box is in fact ticked and you find that you still need to logon, then the forum software is probably persecuting you for initiating such gigantic threads and making it work overtime to maintain them.

If all else fails, contact the forum administrators.
userRayjsj
Posted: 31 August 2008 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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colin - 2008-08-30 8:36 PM

Buying 'cheap' shoddy goods with a known problem, tarting then up with a few bits of imatation veneer and cloth on the walls then selling on to a unsuspecting punter is not 'realy trying and getting it right' at least not in my book, any manufacturer has a responsability to ensure the parts they use are fit for purpose, a year ago Swift could be excused not now.



Colin,
The 'getting it right' bit refers to their design (a bit of a 'copy' i know)
and finish (i think the veneer looks nice!! ) NOT their choice of Vehicle.
I think that all Converters with any (financial) sense should be seriously looking at alternatives to 'Sevel' underpinnings,which are 'tainted' and will stay that way until the Manual Gearbox problem is 'Publically' resolved (with adverts saying what the problem WAS,and what they have/are doing to put it right) or they will stay 'bargepole length' away from sensible buyers. Especially used ones with no written proof of being 'Fixed' by Fiat/Peugeot.
usercolin
Posted: 31 August 2008 7:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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We'll proboly get in trouble for discusing Swift but what the hell. We only look at pvc's so can only comment on them, gf is well taken by some aspects of the Modail range, thinks it looks a bit nicer than some others, I'm not 100% in favour, the bit of extra inlay on locker doors looks ok but I don't like the trim on window sills, looks exactly what it is, cut off a lenght and not well finished at ends, the Rythm which we half considered, has very poor storage in reach of galley, not seen a Pace 'in the flesh' but the MIRO seems quite high such that even on a 3500kg base payload is little higher than the 3300kg Twin, also I'm not so keen on the cloth on walls of front dinette, also looking at photo's the lower lockers at rear have drop down doors which will not be able to be opened if anything is in central storage area. But saying that, if ones at NEC will be giving it a good going over, as I would prefer to have a UK converter.
userkontiki
Posted: 1 September 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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As somebody who is looking at buying new or at least not very old I am really concerned. I was really looking forward to getting another Fiat based van as I was really pleased with the old 2.8JTD. Living in Wales one thing we have is loads of hills & it is unlikely I could avoid reversing at sometime up one.
My dilema is what do I do, after reading the other forum I was amazed at the reaction of some people complaining that taking this action would damage the value of their M/H. Well they are probably right as I wouldn't touch a second hand van until I know what the outcome is & if Fiat are willing to accept this as a fault & it will be fixed as a recall. Just fixing vans that the owners have registered the complaint is no use to me. I would be concerned that this fault could happen a few years down the line. Nomatter how this came to light burying their heads in the sand & denying people the right to complain by what ever means they can is only delaying the inevitable.

All Fiat owners should be complaining en masse to their helpline. What about a campaign to get every owner to ring them the same week with everybody reporting the 'Judder' after all I can make any vehicle judder when engaging the clutch. You will at least get it logged & a incident number, then if they do start to fix the problem you are on the list. The dealers aren't going to be bothered checking every vehicle especially if Fiat is picking up the bill, they will be glad of the extra income.

I am left with the decision that if I want to get another van this year as I will have to either look at Mercedes, Ford or Renault based ones but that limits my choice. The other alternative is to find a late model 2.8 JTD but I really didn't want one too old.
userJudgeMental
Posted: 1 September 2008 1:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



I have a euramobil ford based camper, was thinking of changing next year to another euramobil model which is on a Fiat. The thing is, if they are only going to offer a fix for those who complain, does this mean they are still rolling out of the factory without a fix being implemented at source?

userMelvin
Posted: 1 September 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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The ability too now reverse up a 27% slope, 16% prior to this without damage to the transmission, does this mean the current Fiat X250 are not road leagal in Italy ? and if so under does this affect their legality in other european countries ?
userkontiki
Posted: 1 September 2008 4:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I was wondering that if you are buying a new Fiat based motorhome you could get the dealer to sign something along the lines that he would refund your money in full or at least repair the vehicle for this particular fault whenever it occurs within a reasonable time span. How legally binding would it be, also if the dealer wouldn't give you some type of assurance in writing would you want to buy from them
userElliot
Posted: 1 September 2008 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



At the end of the day it will all depend how Fiat deals with the units in the supply chain? They know how many are out there. The big question for them is will they recall all the units or just ignore them and hope it is not a 100% failure. This is the big money question. The other point is how long will the damage to the point of sales market carry on? Will all resale units carry a health warning? Because after this episode I would imagine the requirement for them will be fairly low. Mr Fiat has a lot of decisions to make
userTracker
Posted: 1 September 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I can't imagine Fiat, or any UK based motor home dealer for that matter, being too worried about future residual values?

They will just shrug their shoulders, offer a crap trade in price, and say that it is all down to supply and demand without specifying a reason - which of course will not be untrue - just economical with the truth.

Equally I can't imagine Fiat will willingly rebuild or replace any gearboxes they don't have to.

I don't know whether the converters or the selling dealers have any influence over Fiat to bring pressure to have all of their current and future stocks of unmodified vans repaired, but I imagine that the sheer logistics make that well nigh improbable and unrealistic?

So as ever was, it will probably fall to the proud owner of his/her new/nearly new/used pride and joy to have to suffer the aggravation and insult of having to discuss/argue with their local Fiat dealer/commercial dealer about the need or not for a new reverse gear, gearbox, clutch assembly and/or ecu update.

Hardly makes one want to buy one does it!

On the other hand if you feel like a gamble now could be an excellent time to buy a new or nearly new Fiat based van - if the price is right!

Edited by Tracker 2008-09-01 5:28 PM
userElliot
Posted: 1 September 2008 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



Just a thought !!!! I wonder if Mr Fiats Ferrari goes uphill backwards or are they affected as well
usercolin
Posted: 2 September 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I note that a few people have complained about judder in first as well as reverse, so I'm guessing there is more than a change to reverse gear to be done.
I'm also wondering how the van gets pan european type approval, vis a vis the reversing rule for Italy, are they submitted for type approval in country of manufacture then having variation to meet UK regs, or are they submitted straight away for a pan european type approval?
userRayjsj
Posted: 2 September 2008 11:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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It's amazing how many 'nearly new' low mileage X250 based M/homes,panel van conversions there are on dealers forecourts at the moment, am i suprised ? of course not, would I buy one ? NOT on your life. certainly not yet.... Probably never.
Is Alistair Darling really private Frazier from Dad's Army in disguise????. Weeeere Dooomed Laddie,all Doooomed !!! it'll be his fault that anything bought with a Euro is dearer today.
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