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Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
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userTracker
Posted: 17 September 2008 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


One chap I spoke to at Shepton Mallet told me that his juddered but he was afraid to complain to his dealer as it might impact further on the value of his already (he felt) devalued investment.

I can understand that point of view but the trouble with burying your head in the sand is that it leaves yer bum very exposed!

We will be at Pickering this weekend and I will again tell anyone I get the chance to about the combined triple whammy 'Perils of Sevel' - water ingress - judder - no spare wheel.

Talk about the Holy Trinity!

Edited by Tracker 2008-09-17 9:17 PM
userdiydoolittle
Posted: 17 September 2008 9:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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As a long time (still unresolved leaker!!) and an unknown judderer, one year in dispute and therefore unable to drive vehicle, now on the brink of litigation (in court by end of year!) All I can reasonably add is, as yet after at least 18 months of acknowledging the scuttlegate problem it is still an issue. Vans are still being sold without recalls and leaking like a sieve. This in a vehicle which is the subject of a safety recall. It is for that reason I do not hold out much hope of a fix on juddergate any time soon!
userAbb
Posted: 17 September 2008 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Tracker - 2008-09-17 9:16 PM


We will be at Pickering this weekend and I will again tell anyone I get the chance to about the combined triple whammy 'Perils of Sevel' - water ingress - judder - no spare wheel.

Talk about the Holy Trinity!


The spare wheel saga is not just confined to Fiat. I've just bought a new Rapido on a Merc. It has no spare wheel. Just a lousy small conpressor and a can of some chimical to use in an emergency.
I did'nt even notice that the spare wheel was missing till the debate in this forum. When I checked, of course it was too late to force the dealer to supply one.
usersteamer
Posted: 18 September 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Having been keeping an eye on what goes on here , last week i had a chance conversation with a fellow engineer who changed from caravan to motorhome in last few years , he has experienced no judders at all & having done several thousand miles to boot , neither of us can really fathom this out - are we back to the vehicle balance factor ?.

anyway - spare wheels , i not got one - can they be sourced along with chassis bits & retrofitted easily , i personally don't like the compressor gizmo ( perhaps old fashioned ! ) , have looked under my van & there seems to be plenty of room & holes for attacmments .

Steamer
usermike 202
Posted: 18 September 2008 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Andy and fellow/potential owners,
Just the act of printing the T- shirts will create the element of uncertainty for Fiat etc., OK so some of us will be in Spain but once the T-shirts are printed and distributed, they will not wear out and be useless after NEC.
There are lots of other Club rallies, other National shows where the word can be spread. Businesses call it Networking. One person sees a T-shirt, asks what it is about, conversation tales place, they tell another and before you know it a Snowball effect has taken place. Not all Owners even know that this forum exists, but all Motorhomers love to chat. Look at what Tracker achieved without a T-shirt, now add the T-shirt and Bingo a ready made ice breaker. " Whats the T-shirt about" - then off we go chapter and verse with emotion, which the forum cannot reproduce.

So Andy, you have had a good idea, dont let less than 100 at the NEC stop you, please get them printed, I am sure most of the M/H community. will support you any way we can
userrowley
Posted: 18 September 2008 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I am not sure that the lack of a spare wheel is entirely a Fiat fault. It may be more to do with the converters as my Adria Twin has one.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 19 September 2008 5:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Well, I've spoken to the only man at Fiat who talks any sense (Steve Barker, the chassis supply manager) and he assures me that something positive will be worked out by Fiat for current owners. I have no reason to distrust Mr Barker as he has been absolutely straight with everybody from the beginning, so I suppose this is better news than previously.
BUT, with Fiat being such a slippery autocratic organisation where nothing is said or done without Fiat HQ in Italy OK-ing it there is still no official comment from Fiat.
Next week we will see whether they are prepared to say that there is an issue which needs resolving.
Fiat say they will get back to me 'soon' with some news, but so far...........

userRainbow-Chasers'
Posted: 19 September 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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As an interesting addition to this debate, i recently discovered from a ducato van owner, that the basic van judders as well! So any excuse the owners are given such as 'it isnt built to be a motorhome' is unfounded, as the commercial van suffers with the same fault, confirming the fact that it is mechanical/design error!
usermike 202
Posted: 20 September 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Andy, I hope your Fiat man is good and true, but as you say Fiat UK has its hands tied by Fiat Italy.
As a projet manager and If I was running Fiat, then on hearing about your scheme with the T-shirts at the NEC, I would use all delaying tactics to stop the adverse publicity at such a public event. Fiat Italy may be useing and stringing your contact along with mis-information.
A project timeline should show the point at which, you/we will be too late.
1. Get money from owners, 2. Place the order, 3 Receive T-shirts, 4 Pack and post.
It is only 15 ish working days to the show, so take into account the time for your man to give you an answer then FIAT HAVE WON - WE have LOST a golden opportunity.
So why not print the T-shirts and let us buy them - If Fiat come clean then we dont use them, we just keep them as a souvenir. I am sure no one will consider it a waste of money.

Regards Mike
usermick&ann
Posted: 20 September 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I am in total agreement with Mick 202 comments Andy get the ''T'' shirts on sale
userTracker
Posted: 20 September 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I am pleased to report two very successful days of spreading the word at Pickering and an even better success of couple of really irritated salesmen who will, with luck, mention it to their bosses who might in turn, with luck, complain to Fiat?

We live in hope.

On the down side we have seen a lot of new vans with sold signs on the windows - hope they know what they are all doing?

Edited by Tracker 2008-09-20 7:29 PM
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 20 September 2008 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Tracker - 2008-09-20 7:26 PM

..........On the down side we have seen a lot of new vans with sold signs on the windows - hope they know what they are all doing?..........


I doubt it tracker - there are hundreds of us out there who had a dream and couldn't see past the decor the first time around - most salesmen will never illuminate the prospective customer with 'side' issues such as this fatal design flaw, inadequate payload or even law breaking issues such as a vehicle that the prospective buyer cannot drive on his/her licence.

This and other forums are essential for such people but, again, most will not find them until after the event.

David
userRayjsj
Posted: 20 September 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I can see this forum being filled with letters from poor 'innocents' for years to come about failing gearboxes on 'Prize-winning' Sevel vehicles, Just like the 'Failing 5th Gear' on the previous chassis.
Does 'Customer satisfaction' mean nothing at Fiat ??
All the old jokes come to mind ' Fix it Again Tony' ' Fix it Again Tomorrow'.

'Don't Touch them with a Bargepole' or 'They don't Do 'Backwards'
Would make good slogans for the T-shirts ??? under an official Fiat Badge
Sod the litigation !
Is this going to be the worst kept secret in Motorhoming ?
Sorry friend,but their second -hand value is ALREADY affected.
userkontiki
Posted: 20 September 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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At the Shepton show I asked any salesman that offered to help about the 'judder problem' some of the answers:

What judder
Blown out of all proportion by one or two individuals
Bad driving
Driving style
If there is a problem Fiat will fix it
It happens with all heavy vehicles when reversing
It's only a problem reversing on steep hills (unfortunately we live in Wales)

I don't know if I've done the right thing but I have bought a van based on the Renault Master so I don't know what problems I'm in for. I did see on the Renault site that they give a 3 year warranty but when I rang Renault UK I was told first of all the warranty was from the date of conversion not registration & it was only 2 years on a motorhome conversion I'm kicking myself for not finding out the full information before I bought.
usermyshell
Posted: 21 September 2008 12:39 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Andy
Just received this months edition of the Camping & Caravaning Club magazine, in the Tech Talk section compiled by Barry Norris, the first question is regarding juddergate on a Fiat, but Barry answered the question quoting Peugeot's solution to this problem, however the last sentence is interesting "Fiat is hoping to announce its solution shortly".
Is this a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, or is a just a Fiat customer service pratt trying to find his way out using a flashlight ?

Get the T-shirts printed, I'll buy one off you.

Phil

useremmbeedee
Posted: 21 September 2008 8:48 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Rayjsj - 2008-09-20 9:07 PM

failing gearboxes on 'Prize-winning' Sevel vehicles, Just like the 'Failing 5th Gear' on the previous chassis.

What is the problem with the previous gearbox? I've not heard about this before & because of the judder on the current version am considering the previous model.
userrupert123
Posted: 21 September 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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emmbeedee - 2008-09-21 8:48 AM

Rayjsj - 2008-09-20 9:07 PM

failing gearboxes on 'Prize-winning' Sevel vehicles, Just like the 'Failing 5th Gear' on the previous chassis.

What is the problem with the previous gearbox? I've not heard about this before & because of the judder on the current version am considering the previous model.


Michael, every M/H base vehicle on the market has had a problem at some point. If you look at any car forum on the internet it is full of problems, that is the nature of forums. Any problem with a previous model will have been sorted out, one advantage of buying secondhand. I note the Sevel portion of the M/H market is now 75% and people like Hymer are adding this base to model ranges that did not have them in the past, the M/H industry obviously has faith in them. Now Fiat have to sort out the owners who have problems with their current vehicle and I have no doubt that eventually they will. The situation is a bad one if you have a problem but most do not and are happy with their vans.
userlibby
Posted: 21 September 2008 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Rupert suggests every M/H has had a problem in the past, I don't doubt that but I based my vehicle selection on forum comments and the types that ARE NOT well advertised in the for sale columns. In the past my comments have not been welcome regarding FIAT.

Just because a large number of an item is produced does not automatically qualify it as being a 'good' product . I'm a realist and will avoid FIAT even more in the future.
userargyler
Posted: 21 September 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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A piece in the Caravan Club Magazine this month and also the latest Caravan and Camping Club magazine says that Peugeot have at last owned up to the problem. Existing vans can have their electronics reset to give more torque lower down. New gearboxes will be supplied with lower reverse gear for motorhomes. No mention of recalls though or who pays for any of this.
userrupert123
Posted: 21 September 2008 4:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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libby - 2008-09-21 2:44 PM

Rupert suggests every M/H has had a problem in the past, I don't doubt that but I based my vehicle selection on forum comments and the types that ARE NOT well advertised in the for sale columns. In the past my comments have not been welcome regarding FIAT.

Just because a large number of an item is produced does not automatically qualify it as being a 'good' product . I'm a realist and will avoid FIAT even more in the future.


My bad way of putting things. I meant every manufacturer has had problems, not every M/H. Types not advertised are types that have not sold in the first place, of course there are more Fiats advertised, there are more Fiat based vehicles sold than the rest put together and have been for some years now, so it follows their are more secondhand ones. When large numbers are produced and continue to be so it usually means it is a good product, otherwise they would not sell. Why on earth would the major producers of M/H's continue to increase their use of Fiat if they had no confidence in the product. Now I fully understand that anyone who follows this forum will be wary about buying a Fiat based van without doing a reverse it up a hill test, I would, but if I was in the market for a new van now I would not wish to restrict myself to a tiny portion of the market. I suspect all those saying 'would not buy a Fiat' have no intention anyway of buying a new van in the immediate future.
userlibby
Posted: 21 September 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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What are the Italians good at, wine yes, pasta yes, the WWII 'two man' submarines, racing cars, Nobile the airship pilot who flew Amundsen to the North Pole, (if I remember correct) and religion I suppose, but cannot think of much more. In general their military vehicles were not that brilliant.

I believe the large production of FIAT M/H vehicles (and others) derives partly from an expanding population and, what (or rather who) is behind their industry? Its been suggested allegedley that the Mafia have a high stake in the country's well being, which in turn also filters through to the USA!

Listening to recent mishandling of the US financial system one may question, and who is behind that? FIAT finance is worldwide.

Will they admit a wrong doing, NEVER.

FIAT have to produce, make no mistake, its as simple as that!! If the product is less than perfect, no matter just keep making it.

And why do they sell, because the agents get rewards plus FIAT UK keep importing them and unfortunately so many UK people are 'loyal' customers
which in effect means like supermarkets they will continue to buy regardless.

I'm never loyal, I buy fuel, food, travel, and all items from the most convenient store I can find.

That's my Sunday rant done. What cost the T shirts?
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 21 September 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Tracker - 2008-09-20 7:26 PM

I am pleased to report two very successful days of spreading the word at Pickering and an even better success of couple of really irritated salesmen who will, with luck, mention it to their bosses who might in turn, with luck, complain to Fiat?

We live in hope.

On the down side we have seen a lot of new vans with sold signs on the windows - hope they know what they are all doing?


Managed to visit the show today (sunday) and pleased that it seems to have gone well - especially with fair weather.

Over heard a couple admiring a new Fiat van conversion and wondering why it seemed so cheap compared to others on the show field - I offered one very good reason and they shot a worried look in each others' direction before walking away with an appreciative and relieved air about them to look at the range of second hand vehicles for sale.

David
userMelvin
Posted: 21 September 2008 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I have just returned from a two week break in the New Forest, at 1900 miles my vibration is becoming worse, on level tarmac my motorhome judder violetely. On two occasion I had to reverse on the pitch, following both occasion I had to pay a visit to the Fiat dealer to repair the reversing lights, camera, cruise control and switch of the dash warning lights.

The dealer was excellent, they told me they have raised the matter with Fiat, but they are not listening, and stand a better chance if I complain myself ?

However they informed me the coachbuilder were paying less than £5000.00 for the Fiat powertrain, I am assuming they are now paying a lot less. Am I right in thinking this may be the root of the problem
usermike 202
Posted: 21 September 2008 7:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Melvin, when I questioned the extra cost of an Auto-sleeper on a Ford as opposed to Fiat, I was told that Ford will not discount as they had a ready market for a good product. As opposed to Fiats selling/supply strategy.

Have not heard from Andy lately re the NEC protest.
REALLY do we want to miss this opportunity ?
I know it will be a lot of hard work for you Andy, but Please, Please, when are the T-shirts going to become available???. Happy to send money up front before T-shirts are even printed.

Mike
usercolin
Posted: 21 September 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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kontiki - 2008-09-20 9:29 PM

At the Shepton show I asked any salesman that offered to help about the 'judder problem' some of the answers:

What judder
Blown out of all proportion by one or two individuals
Bad driving
Driving style
If there is a problem Fiat will fix it
It happens with all heavy vehicles when reversing
It's only a problem reversing on steep hills(unfortunately we live in Wales)

I don't know if I've done the right thing but I have bought a van based on the Renault Master so I don't know what problems I'm in for. I did see on the Renault site that they give a 3 year warranty but when I rang Renault UK I was told first of all the warranty was from the date of conversion not registration & it was only 2 years on a motorhome conversion I'm kicking myself for not finding out the full information before I bought.


Can't remember the details about Renault warranty, but think if you pm Mel E you may get answers.
The Renault IMO has a much better driving position, at least it suits me, so if the layout is what you want then it's ok.

but lets consider some of the salesmen comments
'What Judder'- I'll give benifet of dought and say ignorant of product being sold.
'Blown out of all proportion by one or two individuals'- how many hundreds of complains so far?
'Bad driving/Driving style'- when Fiat drivers test for defect they don't say 'no judder' they say 'within limits' so even they can't drive them.
'If there is a problem Fiat will fix it'- no official word from Fiat yet.
'It happens with all heavy vehicles when reversing'-on my 'test track' where two out of the three juddered I can reverse two road cranes with no judder, they are considerbly heavier than the Fiat.
'It's only a problem reversing on steep hills- My 'test track' is a mild grassy slope which is often encountered at camp sites.


Edited by colin 2008-09-21 9:59 PM
usermike 202
Posted: 22 September 2008 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Colin, a friend of mine has a Knaus/Renault 06 reg and he wrote to Renault and got the warranty extended to 3 years. Am meeting him in Spain in two weeks - will post details as soon as I can get to WiFi probably around 5/6 Oct If you send me your E-mail will send info direct + post it on forum. He loves the Renault base,No judders and regularly gets 30 mpg touring.
Regards
Mike
userMelvin
Posted: 22 September 2008 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Just got off the phone with Fiat Justin Westnedge, we had an intresting conversation regarding the revs judder, as usual he is none comital. He apparently is awaiting a reply to the situation from Fiat Italy this week, he is aware of Pugeot response, I wonder ?
usermike 202
Posted: 22 September 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Si DOMANI or DOPPO DOMANI, tomorrow or the next day.
Getting closer to the NEC, lets (Fiat) delay a bit more then we (Fiat) will not have to deal with a T-shirt demo at a major show. How many times has it been next week, just a few more days, possibly an answer soon. Look at Fiat(Ferrari in F1) they get away with all sorts.
Every time a promise is made by Fiat to make a statement they do - BUT it is always the same " Will get back soon".
Am I getting pi**ed off, getting paranoid ? yes!!.
Every one is waiting, but nothing is happening. In the end we will all get fed up and give up and that is what Fiat want - after all when you stop banging your head against a brick wall it stops hurting.
Frustrated
usercolin
Posted: 22 September 2008 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Answer to the t-shirt problem seems simple to me, someone (andy or whoever) makes a template, those that want to wear supply email for template to be sent to, then buy t-shirt, and iron on kits from pcworld? get this sorted now and can be left till last minute if nessasary. T-shirts can be brought cheap, transfers from pcworld are £12 for 10?
userbob M
Posted: 22 September 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Kontiki,
There was a thread on Renault Master Warranty by a Mike Chapman posted on the 30th October 2007 which deals with this subject
I picked up on this thread on the 30/05/2008 and started an investigation into my warranty.
My vehicle a Renault based Dethleff was registered new to me on the 03/11/2007 and collected on the 21/11/2007 from dealers Lazy Days.
I presumed I had 2 years warranty.
No, the base vehicle was delivered to Dethleffs on the 29/11/2005 and that was when the warranty started. 8 days after I took delivery the 2 year service was due??.
I have had to send a copy of the registration to Lazy Days who then forwarded it on to Germany who kick started the warranty from the date of registration (03/11/2007) and I now have a 2 years warranty.
The 3rd year extension I was led to believe (Renault Service 0800 525150) I could obtain by sending several papers to Renault UK at Rickmansworth.
The reply came back last week,No.
Another phone number was given with this letter Renault Information Services 0800 525150.
You do not state wether your chosen vehicle is a UK conversion or continental.
I may be wrong but I believe the 3rd year is to compensate buyers of foreign vans who have lost out on a few months of warranty and not UK vehicles.
I found the whole deal very unsatisfactory.
The Renault vehicle is very pleasing and if I had the 3rd year I would be surprised if I used it.
Sorry if this is disrupting the Fiat thread.
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