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Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
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userPSHORT
Posted: 1 August 2008 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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A week ago 24th July I sent a letter to Dwain Meek Customer services at Fiat.
I described how during a 600 mile round trip I found myself needing to complete a tight 3-point turn. Soon after we had to drive forwards onto Fiamma wedges to level the van. On both occasions we had a smoking clutch the smell of which hung around for a good hour afterwards. I wonder how many times we will be able to drive on to levellers with the original clutch.
I like many others have covered thousands of miles in a variety of vehicles without
having to replace a clutch(including 90k in a 1961 mini van! I have asked Mr Meek
would he accept limitations on 3-point turns in his own private vehicle. As yet no answer but as Fiat UK seem to have fled back to Italy in hiding I don't expect one.
Murvi Morello
userkelly58
Posted: 1 August 2008 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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My Dec 2006 Peugeot 2.2 Hdi 5 Speed unit has just had the VOSA recall work carried out by my local Peugeot Dealer.The main items were Water Ingress which was cured successfully and a cover added to the wiper motor and another mod added to the bracket under wiper motor with drain pipe ( see photo ) to stop the water dripping onto engine / steering rack removed  rebushed regreased and modified retaining bolts fitted / gearbox and diff removed new parts fitted / all underbonnet electrics sealed against moisture / downloaded new software to engine management system  all work carried out over 3 days. As we live in the " flatlands " we will have to wait until we go to north Wales next week to find some hills to reverse up to see if all is ok although I must say I had not noticed any juddering in the past .It seems Peugeot are doing their best to sort things out we had terrific heavy rain last night but everything was good and dry this morning under the bonnet.



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userAndyStothert
Posted: 1 August 2008 10:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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The 5 speed versions are definitely less prone to the juddering problems and the vast majority are the 2.3 litre Fiat engined vehicles. Not that the 5 speed ones are totally immune.
The work on the differential relates to completely unrelated recall which affected a number of 5 speed models which had a badly machined diff casing and some bolts worked loose.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the juddering, so don't all start jumping up and down thinking deliverance is at hand.
If only.
And that central drain certainly isn't fitted to our Fiat.

Ours goes in (again) next week as there is now a rather strange rattling noise coming from the clutch. It could be the release bearing, but who knows.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-01 10:39 PM
userAndyStothert
Posted: 2 August 2008 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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It's probably time for an update as to the numbers of motorhome owners who are suffering from the judders, or worse, gearbox and clutch failures.
These however are just the ones we do know about.
To illustrate this, and to put these figures into perspective I notice that there is a post today on this very forum by someone suffering from the judders who certainly isn't on the list I've accumulated. So we have proably only a small percentage of the suffers recorded I think.
Plus, it seems that many have swallowed Fiat and Peugeot's assertion that it is nothingv to worry about.
Anyway, with three different sources keeping records (MMM, The Motorcaravanners Club, and me, who did a runner for 3 months) we know that there are at least 300 complaints from motorhome owners.
Despite requests to do so Fiat and Peugeot cannot supply accurate numbers of complaints, gearbox failures, or clutch failures on these vehicles.


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-02 8:57 PM
useryeti
Posted: 2 August 2008 10:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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My new vehicle,as previously reported ,also has this problem.
I have spent a lot of money on it and I want the fault rectified. When it started juddering I had heard about giving it some more revs,this just caused it to smoke,quite severely. If it is a chassis built especially for motorhomes it is even more disturbing. Whilst I agree in dealing with the issue on an individual basis,unity is strength. I would like to see other people becoming involved such as the converters,it would certainly affect their sales.The clubs Caravan and also Camping who should be looking after its members interests rather than trying to sell them loans and credit cards and also the SMMT.
These last groups seem to be rather silent.
I will be writing to the retailer,converter and to FIAT and see what happens.
usercolin
Posted: 3 August 2008 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I've taken the liberty of copying your post from other thread, thats the trouble of having two threads running.
It's happened to me this week on a site near Great Harwood. Whilst trying to reverse onto a pitch the van gave a wonderful impersonation of a destroyer 'making smoke' Juddering was unbelievable. I left it on site for the week and when I came to move it today the clutch pedal was to the floor and the clutch was slipping severely.
It also 'thumps' on start up.
I am going to write to Auto-trail this weekend,I feel that a perfectly good conversions reputation is being jepordised by this fault.
My vehicle is an Auto-Trail Scout on the Maxi 6-speed 3l engine.
My previous motohome was a Hymer 544 on a Ducato 2.5TD which I drove for 16 years and put 90.000 on it with never a moments trouble.
The new van is 2 months old with just 300 on the clock!!!
There is a lot of anger about this issue,especially when you have just spent £60k on your dream vehicle!

useryeti
Posted: 3 August 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I have tested my vehicle today and found that on anything above level ground it is juddering. Whilst this bears no strength in my argument I will now proceed to my next step and commission an independent engineer's report. I believe that any FIAT main agent may be on orders 'not to dig too deep'. I will also contact non motorhome users and converters of the FIAT chassis.
I have worked in the area of minbus welfare conversions and I will conduct a straw poll amongst them as to how many are using a FIAT chassis and if not why not. Also the national representative body for organisations who use the welfare conversions. I will keep you posted.
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 4 August 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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yeti - 2008-08-02 10:02 PM

My new vehicle,as previously reported ,also has this problem.
I have spent a lot of money on it and I want the fault rectified. When it started juddering I had heard about giving it some more revs,this just caused it to smoke,quite severely. If it is a chassis built especially for motorhomes it is even more disturbing. Whilst I agree in dealing with the issue on an individual basis,unity is strength. I would like to see other people becoming involved such as the converters,it would certainly affect their sales.The clubs Caravan and also Camping who should be looking after its members interests rather than trying to sell them loans and credit cards and also the SMMT.
These last groups seem to be rather silent.
I will be writing to the retailer,converter and to FIAT and see what happens.


The Camping and Caravanning Club are giving an excellent opportunity to do just this in the August edition of their magazine (page 86).

The article reads:

"Has part of your camping unit failed recently?"

"Among the calls received by the Technical Department are a number concerning the failure of components in units earlier than expected. The club would like to track this to try to assess the scale of the problem.
If part of your caravan, motorhome, trailer tent, folding camper or tent has failed and is five years old or less you can help by filling in our questionnaire online at campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/unitfailures or call us on 024 7647 5282 for a paper copy."

Worth getting them involved.

David
userMeadows Engine
Posted: 4 August 2008 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Am I correct in believing that this Judder problem does not occur in the 3litre automatic, or is this just whistful thinking as its just an robotised gearbox which can therefore be affected?

Help I have one on order!!
userElliot
Posted: 4 August 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



Colin: I think you have succeeded in your censorship so give it a rest now
userAndyStothert
Posted: 4 August 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Re the 3 litre automatic it appears from the limited experience yet of this version of the Ducato that it doesn't suffer from the judders.
That's the good news. The bad news is that Fiat say it can't be retro fitted.
The new auto box was delayed considerably as we all wonder if this wasn't due to some remedial work, and nobody has as yet been able to examine the box to check that is physically identical (casings etc) to the manual version. If any body has seen the technical specification (ratios etc) this may enlighten us. Then again it may not as the Italian Judderers reckon Fiat knew about the problem right from the start (just after it was too late) so published incorrect data.
They say they can prove it too. But only in court.
So back to the original question, so far none of the auto versions tested seem to judder.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-04 6:16 PM
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 4 August 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Today I had a 3 litre Fiat in the workshop and had to reverse it onto my new lift. As the lift is an 8 Tonne job the platform is fairly substantial resulting in a deck height of 250mm when its down. The ramps onto the deck are 900mm long giving a ramp angle of around 1:4.5. The motorhome did vibrate quite unpleasantly while going up but managed it with just 900rpm and no clutch smoking. This vehicle exhibited the worst vibration in reverse of any I've tried to date but I'd still not say it felt potentially terminal or even potentially damaging.

D.
userGoldcoaster
Posted: 5 August 2008 2:57 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi Andy,
I am contemplating ordering a new 3 litre Automatic (MTA) and would love
to get positive info regarding their "Judderbility."
Surely, Fiat must produce Service/Parts manuals for the 2 transmissions, and being able to view them would enable us to examine the similarity, if any, between the two.
Do you think that they would be available to private owners?
Keep up the good work.
Regards, Bill
userItexuk
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Some info on the x250.
http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/companion.html
userMelvin
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Unfortunately I to have a Fiat X250, to date I have aborted two holidays.
Early July, despite using 2500 to 3000 rpm could not reverse up a slope to my pitch at Ilam Park, late July, I just could not reverse onto my grass pitch on the top field at Trewethett Farm.

We are now afraid to reverse due to parts falling of the motorhome, in the worst case the electric connections shook out of the charger.

Fortunately I am experiencing NO Problems reversing up these slopes on my lightweight mobility scooter.

My dealer has returned my motorhome to Fiat on two seperate occasions, they could find nothing wrong. However with persistance (contacting trading standards and asking for my money back) my dealer has aquired new entusiasm, and contacted Fiat Proffesional.

I have now had my motorhome examine by a Fiat Commercial garage, on a very slight gradient they noticed severe transmission vibration, and noted the clutch was slipping in reverse.They are supplying me a copy of the written report to be forwarded to Fiat. My dealer is now chasing Fiat.

If I can offer any advice:
(a) stick your heels in,
(b) contact trading standards,
(c) ask Fiat motorhome owners on site if they have familiar experiences,
(d) advise anyone who will lsten to you fo your problems,
(e) eventually Fiat and the dealers will be hurts by loss of sales,
(f) give your coachbuilder in my case Autotrail some grief,

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 5 August 2008 12:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Melvin

It would help if you could quote the name and whereabouts of the Fiat Commercial garage who were so helpful and have offered you a copy of their report to Fiat.  I think there may be others who would value that kind of response.

userMeadows Engine
Posted: 5 August 2008 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Thanks for the reply to my post,was the 3ltr davenewell(4 Aug)drove up his ramps manual or automatic?
The Italiaspeed site says the 6 speed boxes used on the 2.3 &3.0 are "differentiated on the basis of levels of engine torgue" and goes on to say that TWO new manual 6spd boxes have been developed, the 2.3 having a 2 axle gear box whilst the 3.0 has a 3 axel gear box with multicone type synchronisers on all speeds (excl 5th & 6th) but including reverse. Would this help it?
Fiat make a big deal out of their gearbox designed for motorhomes, does a converted high top panel van just have a standard commercial box.

userDave Newell
Posted: 5 August 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Can't comment on the makeup or ratios of any of the gearboxes but the one I drove the yesterday was manual. The automatic (ASM) box is by all accounts immune to the judder/vibration.

D.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Dave,
This unpleasant juddering you experienced - how do you think it would affect things on a gradient twice or three times as steep for nearly half a mile?
The thing is that whilst this isn't a common occurrence this is the situation we found ourselves in on a single track public road with no weight restrictions (etc) when we met a small lorry towing a trailer coming up the other way which couldn't obvisouly reverse back down again. Result - one broken gearbox.
A month ago, in Croatia we were forced to abort a ferry crossing because they wanted us to drive onto the ferry and then reverse off on the other side up a steep ramp - this is how motorcaravanning is with a Fiat Ducato - you have to consider every possible reversing situation in advance, and this isn't easy talking to a Croatian seaman who obviously thinks you are bonkers when you tell him that a new vehicle can't revsere up steep hills.
Then there's the wet grass in Spain. These things do not like wet grass.

Five weeks ago we went to campsite where the pitches were on terraces overlooking the sea (very nice too) but had to decline staying there because the terraces involved driving up and down a series of steep ramps about 100 yards long - so half would be reversing up and out.
So we had to leave this idyllic situation because the van will not reverse up a steep slope without either smoking the clutch or knackering the gearbox.
Now I don't want to fall out with a mate, but your workshop ramp is hardly a true test.


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-05 8:27 PM
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Oh I forgot to add that all this garbage about special gearboxes for motorhomes is just that - our small panel van conversion is just the same and has the same 6 speed three shaft box as all the others.
And of course the same destructive juddering.

This also rules out all the talk (from Peugeot) about only big heavy motorhomes being affected as ours is a very lightweight van conversion.
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Andy, I don't want to fall out with anyone, least of all a mate, but I've been trying very hard to ascertain what might be the cause of this judder/vibration. I've driven around 20 or so of these vehicles and none of them have exhibited what I would call a truly horrendous judder/vibration. Without first hand experience of the fault it is very difficult to come up with any reasonable explanation as to the cause. I have repeatedly said that it might well be that my test hill is not steep enough and I have asked if anyone with a badly juddering unit would be prepared to let me try it and experience it first hand, to date NO ONE has come forward!

I'm more than happy to try and help with this but without first hand experience of it its bloody difficult to come up with any reasonable cause and therefore solution.

You originally said that a hill of 1 in 5 would produce the problem, I've tried it on a steep ramp, albeit only 900mm long, but it still gets pretty close to your specified gradient, I've also tried almost every one of the 'vans I've driven on a steepish ramp near my workshop, often with the owner sitting alongside and not once have I managed to generate anything more serious than an irritating vibration and I certainly haven't managed to smoke a clutch!

I'm sorry if you don't find my postings helpful but they are factual and honest.

D.
userfred grant
Posted: 5 August 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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so what do we call you now dave my biddy?

factual dave, or

honest john?
userClive
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I guess that the pile of mail in the Jago postbox should indicate that its a tad more than a figment of Andy,s imagination. (See MMM latest article on the subject)

userdavenewell@home
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Nobody is suggesting its a figment of anyones imagination Clive. All I'm trying to say is I've yet to experience it and until I do I can't put together any sensible suggestions of what might be the cause and thereby the remedy. Various people have made wild guesses as to the cause ranging from engine mountings (my own initial suspect) to dual mass flywheels and gear ratios. Me, I prefer to work with facts not assumptions and facts start with experiencing the fault.

By the way, at least one person has said they smoked their clutch trying to get onto levelling ramps, my ramp is steeper and longer than any levelling ramps I've ever seen yet it produced nothing more than an unpleasant vibration.

D.

Edited by davenewell@home 2008-08-05 10:24 PM
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Dave,
God bless you for replying. Gives me another chance to re-utter the destructive juddering chant.

Gravity being what it is when you only have a maximum of half the vehicle on the slope the mass is less than half of that when the whole weight is on the slope. And with a single workshop ramp this is excatly what happens. When the rear then gets on the level part the overhang actually relieves some of the load on the front.
I know you were genuinely trying to get a handle of this mess but I think the time for disscussing causes is probably well past now, with hundreds of complaints to Fiat, and what we should really be devoting our collective thoughts to is coming up with ideas to ensure Fiat (et al) find the solution for those affected rather than just a quietly instigated fix for production vehicles at some time in the future.
Incidentally today has brought another clutch failure to light and two more six speed gearboxes Fiat will have to replace.
You can experience the judder on level ground (grass) at Malvern - but only if our van manages to keep running until then. And after another visit to Fiat today there are some doubts.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-05 10:56 PM
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 6 August 2008 6:47 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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OK Andy, see you at Malvern mate .

D.
usersteamer
Posted: 6 August 2008 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I today booked our swift into the fiat dealer in swansea for a handbrake that has issues , talking to them about the juddering situation their comments were that not all vehicles were affected , however they said that if we were to experience any problems theywould investigate willingly .
I have said that in putting the vehicle onto levelling ramps recently i did experience some clutch smell , at the time i put that down to newness as i have with the brakes smelling but we will see .
userMelvin
Posted: 6 August 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi

I cant believe how arrogrant Fiat proffesional are. On the Monday I had my motorhome inspected, the workshop manager confirmed the transmission vibration, but also noted the clutch was now begin to slip on a very slight gradient. He is personnally discussed with Fiat, but his hands are tied.

I just phoned Fiat this afternoon they told me they sent a letter out yesterday (tuesday) with their basic fob off letter, cant find anything wrong etc.

Funny that, this morning (wednesday) the workshop manager phoned and asked my mileage 1600, and would would email Fiat with his report.

I just phoned back the workshop manager, he told me that is typical of Fiat. He also informed me ( off the record ) Fiat have no intention of resoving the problem.

Melvin Biggle
userMelvin
Posted: 6 August 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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The Fiat Commercial dealer phoned this morning to tell me Fiat have warned them off, under no circumstances are they to supply me with a copy, and I will be recieving the standard letter from Fiat.

Unfortunately I hope to get a report from the RAC and Mercedes

userAndyStothert
Posted: 6 August 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Does anyone know what 'hold' Fiat have over the dealers?
Is it just that they will remove the franchise if they step out of line?
I say this because whilst our dealer has been (like Melvin's) helpful and told me all the same things off the record, they will not, under any circumstances, give me the written proof that Fiat have been told that our vehicle is defective.
And unfortunately the Freedom of Information Act doesn't cover private companies such as Fiat, so their internal lies will remain private.
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