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PVC registration charges.


Brian Kirby

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Brian,

 

I was under the impression that the VED paid was still dependent on the manner of first registration, and that this *should* relate to the nature of the final stage (converter's) CoC.

 

The initial stage CoC from the vehicle manufacturer will have an emissions figure on it, but the subsequent and final stage ones may still (validly) omit this.

 

If the final CoC does not have an emissions figure on it, then the vehicle can be registered without and will still fall in the old PLG/PHG classification for VED.

 

If a figure has been carried through from the initial to the final stage CoC then this *must* be used for initial registration and will result in the approach you set out.

 

There is also a possibility that the final stage CoC does not have a figure on it, but that someone has in error declared the figure from the initial stage CoC, which will also inflate the cost (and should, IMO, be appeal-able as a registration error).

 

 

 

 

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We purchased a new Autotrail PVC fat the Birmingham show last October (2016), , but only registered/delivered in May 2017.and took this very point up with dealer at the time of ordering, and in the period between, as was concerned about the possibility of a higher band. They were also trying to establish the situation for their own needs, I think, and eventually went back to AT for confirmation of the proposed changes....they finally established no change to PVCS with AT as no figure is shown on documentation.

That is still the position as far as I know, but I believe it does depend on what is shown on the documentation. I assume without that figure at the outset this will mean we will still be in the same ta bracket for the life of the van, and just subject to the usual annual increase....

Despite the proposals for no diesels in 2040, I for ne wont be around then, so have no worries on that score!!.

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....already shared with Brian by PM, but repeated here in case anyone else has an interest......

 

This current link shows the criticality of the CO2 figure being included or omitted on the final stage CoC.

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables

 

If it is included, then it will fall into the new emissions rated tax classes (and, I think, also fall foul of the £40,000 list price hurdle!).

 

If it isn't included, then it doesn't fall into the above (and - slightly - implicitly) falls under the previous PHG/PLG categorisation.

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Brian Kirby - 2017-10-26 7:19 PM

 

Is anyone with a Euro 5/6 PVC being charged VED at £800 for the first year and £450 per year thereafter for the first five years, based on CO2 emissions?

PM if preferred.

Many thanks.

Thanks folks for the replies.

 

Forgot to add to the above, so re-quoting for clarity, that these changes only apply to vans registered after 1/4/17, and are only likely to be relevant for PVS where the bodywork is essentially unaltered from that of the base vehicle, so the base manufacturers' emissions figures remain valid.

 

Interesting re AT. Will be interesting to see if they can sustain their interpretation when other converters using the same bodyshell are treated differently!

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Brian Kirby - 2017-10-26 9:44 PM

...these changes ... are only likely to be relevant for PVC's where the bodywork is essentially unaltered from that of the base vehicle.

 

Brian,

 

It is not only bodywork which affects the emissions figure but also WEIGHT !!!

 

So if the converter increases the unladen weight then the CO2 figure WILL be affected and hence the original manufacturers CO2 figure can be removed.

 

Keith.

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Keithl - 2017-10-27 8:38 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-26 9:44 PM

...these changes ... are only likely to be relevant for PVC's where the bodywork is essentially unaltered from that of the base vehicle.

 

Brian,

 

It is not only bodywork which affects the emissions figure but also WEIGHT !!!

 

So if the converter increases the unladen weight then the CO2 figure WILL be affected and hence the original manufacturers CO2 figure can be removed.

 

Keith.

Do you know where that is stated, Keith? My assumption has been that as the vehicle has already been Type Approved (e.g. as a 3,500kg MAM van), unless the MAM is increased (when, amazingly, the vehicle would be registered for VED purposes, as now, as PHGV) the CO2 figures would remain valid.

 

If the determining factor is unladen weight then I agree, the added weight would render the original base vehicle CO2 invalid and, as a small volume vehicle, not subject to an emissions test the T/A purposes. However, I haven't found a reference to unladen weight being the determinant.

 

Thanks.

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The ‘rules’ are detailed here

 

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/3-motorhome-road-tax

 

I don’t think there are any hard-and-fast regulations about whether or not a CO2 emissions value should end up on the final CofC of a ‘multi-stage’ motorhome conversion. I believe VW panel-vans (eg “California”), because the complete vehicle is made by VW, will have a CO2 figure on their one-and-only CofC, but the norm for a Type-Approved ‘2-stage conversion’ PVC seems to be that the CofC relating to the 2nd stage will not carry a CO2 figure.

 

(I’ve no idea what the situation is with small-volume UK converters.)

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Brian,

 

I can't find a good reference at the moment but basically every model of car and van is emissions tested at a given 'Inertia' which is directly proportional to the vehicles weight and aerodynamic drag. If the vehicles weight increases then so does the test inertia.

And as everybody knows the heavier the vehicle the greater the fuel consumption, and hence higher emissions figure, so altering a vehicles kerb or test weight will render the manufacturers figure obsolete.

 

I'll try and get more info later next week when I'm back in work as this is the area our department specialises in.

 

PS Why do you think manufacturers go to the lengths they do to cut weight? Basically to get a lower inertia figure and hence better fuel consumption and emissions results!

 

PPS And Derek is correct re the VW California, as VW finishes the vehicle then they have to supply a COC in the finished condition. If you bought an empty van and added your own identical conversion you would then not be able to use the VW COC and would use the relevant PLG tax Class 11.

 

Try Googling 'NEDC test cycle' if you're feeling bored :-)

 

Keith.

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The emissions-related rules that were introduced in 2013 regarding UK registration of motohomes are summarised here

 

http://www.thencc.org.uk/news_press/news_detail.aspx?NewsID=269

 

I don’t think there is anything that prohibits a PVC manufacturer from carrying over a CO2 figure from the base-vehicle’s original CofC to the 2nd-stage (final) CofC. If I remember correctly, when the DVLA change of stance was announced in 2013 the NCC ‘encouraged’ all UK converters not to quote a CO2 value, but there was no suggestion that doing this was mandatory and no reason to think the NCC has any leverage with foreign converters in this respect.

 

It needs bearing in mind that, although some EU countries have emissions-related regulations that revolve round the vehicle Euro standard (eg. the present Euro 6 one), a vehicle’s specific CO2 datum as shown on its CofC won’t affect a buyer except in the UK where the CO2 value has a financial impact on a buyer. So if, say, Globecar quotes a CO2 value on the 2nd-stage CofC of a 3500kg MAM model, this will matter financially to a UK buyer, but not to a buyer of that same model were that PVC to be marketed in France, Germany, Belgium, etc.

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Thanks all.

 

I have, in the meantime, had a longish chat with the NCC's "road tax guru". An absolute fund of information: so much so that I should really have recorded the conversation for future reference! It had so many caveats that I can't begin to repeat (or remember!) them all.

 

However, the broad gist is as follows. Note: this information does not translate (yet! :-)) for coachbuilts.

 

First, whether the Final stage CoC carries over the CO2 emissions data from the first stage CoC (Fiat etc) depends on whether the base vehicle starts life in category M1, on N1.

 

If it starts as M1 there will be no change in category when it is converted, as motorhomes are also category M1, so the emissions data should, generally, copy over. This applies, for example, to Bilbos conversions, where the base vehicles are usually of passenger carrying (M1), and not goods carrying (N1), type. This will usually result in the 'van attracting CO2 related VED, resulting in first year VED (for a 2.3L/130PS Ducato) of £800 in year 1, and £140 in each following year, unless the list price at purchase exceeds £K40 (as they all do!) in which case there is an additional charge of £310 per year for the next five years (as shown in Derek's linked documents).

 

However, even here there are exceptions where, apparently, if the national Type Approval authority can be so persuaded, the added weight of the conversion can be claimed to invalidate the base emissions data and, since motorhomes are rated as low volume production vehicles, there is no further emissions testing required for T/A, resulting in null values being entered. Result: PLG/PHGV. This seems to be the route followed by the main UK PVC converters.

 

If it starts life as N1 (carriage of goods) and is 3,500kg MAM or under, the process of converting it to a motorhome requires it to be re-classified as M1 (passenger carrying) during the T/A procedure, but as above, being a low volume production vehicle and not subject to emissions testing, it acquires null values. Result: PLG (currently paying £245 VED P/A).

 

If it starts life as N1 and is also over 3,500kg, or is re-plated over 3,500kg during conversion, it goes straight to PHGV (currently paying only £165 VED P/A).

 

Where vehicles are imported as finished PVCs, the major manufacturers have realised the cost disadvantage they face under CO2 related VED, and have adopted the same approach as those in UK. However, a few have not, or cannot persuade their T/A authority to treat export vehicles differently to those destined for their home markets, and consequently will have CoCs bearing the CO2 data, so must be registered in the appropriate, post April 2017, emissions related VED band.

 

Personal imports will almost invariably come with final stage CoC bearing CO2 data and, unless replacement CoCs that omit the CO2 data can be obtained from the manufacturer, they will also have to be registered in the post April 2017 VED bands.

 

The above is likely to remain the case until 1/9/2019, when the emissions test regime for type N1 (possibly other) vehicles will change. Presently N1 vehicles are tested minus payload. Post 1/9/19 they will be tested at 90% of MAM, so that the effect of load on emissions is taken into account during T/A. Since it is unlikely that a PVC on a 3,500kg MAM N1 van will weigh more than 3,150kg, even in Mass in Running Order condition (i.e. only 350kg user payload), it seems pretty inevitable that the CO2 emissions will thereafter be copied over from the stage 1 CoC as the norm.

 

So, if contemplating buying a PVC between now and 1/9/19, check carefully whether the converter's CoC bears the CO2 figures, because if it does, it'll cost you!

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Thank you for the reminder.

 

Looked at V5C

 

From my reading and for my van, dual-carriageways are only 60 and single carriageways 50.

 

My V5C shows:

 

D5 Body Type: Motor Caravan

 

[x] Taxation Class: Light Goods Vehicle

 

J Vehicle Category: N1

 

F.1. Max. permissable mass (excl m/c) 3500

 

but its not easy to get head round. N1 is described by VCA as "Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes."

 

Too early for this sort of thing.

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william49 - 2017-11-06 8:01 AM

 

Thank you for the reminder.

Looked at V5C

From my reading and for my van, dual-carriageways are only 60 and single carriageways 50.

My V5C shows:

D5 Body Type: Motor Caravan

[x] Taxation Class: Light Goods Vehicle

J Vehicle Category: N1

F.1. Max. permissable mass (excl m/c) 3500

 

but its not easy to get head round. N1 is described by VCA as "Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes."

.

if you are vehicle type N1 then you are restricted to lower speed limits.

My Globecar PVC has 2 COC. (3499kg)

The original base van one from Fiat was for me empty PVC and classes the van as N1 (I.e commercial) and would be subject to the lower speed limits.... However

The later Globecar CoC changes the type to M1, which allows me to essentially be classed as a private car for speed limit purposes.

My v5c document lists my van as PLG, as a Motor caravan but does not state either M1 or N1 on the paperwork

**edit **

Fwiw, with respect to my 2017 Globecar PVC, the original Fiat COC contains CO2 emissions figures, but the later Globecar converter CoC does not contain CO2 emissions figures.

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...I'm not convinced of that, Gerry.

 

AIUI, if a vehicle is initially registered and taxed in Class N1 (e.g. before conversion), then regardless of any subsequent conversion, it will remain in that class *for VED purposes*, though it may then be re-classified as a "Motor Caravan" via the Body Type.

 

This is what appears to have happened in the above case.

 

Whilst I certainly wouldn't like to give legal advice on it, I believe it is that re-classification of body type to "Motor Caravan" that is relevant as far as speed limits are concerned.

 

(I think car derived-vans also receive the N1 classification, but subject to having the appropriate body type, and being below a given weight, then they also are treated differently for speed limits).

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^happy to be corrected! :-D

 

All is can confirm is my van was originally N1 from Fiat and it changed classification to M1 following conversion to MH by Globecar.

I assumed it was this that altered the speed limit stuff, but equally, it could be the change of class from commercial to Motor Caravan (<3500kg) I really don't know.

In my case, being a Motor Caravan and PLG by virtue of being <3500kg on the V5C and M1 on the COC, it means I am definitely subject to car speed limits.

 

If I were N1, with everything else the same, it possibly makes now odds, especially if the motor caravan & PLG bit is the important element for speed limits

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Gerry McG - 2017-11-06 12:11 PM

 

^happy to be corrected! :-D

 

All is can confirm is my van was originally N1 from Fiat and it changed classification to M1 following conversion to MH by Globecar.

I assumed it was this that altered the speed limit stuff, but equally, it could be the change of class from commercial to Motor Caravan (<3500kg) I really don't know.

In my case, being a Motor Caravan and PLG by virtue of being <3500kg on the V5C and M1 on the COC, it means I am definitely subject to car speed limits.

 

If I were N1, with everything else the same, it possibly makes now odds, especially if the motor caravan & PLG bit is the important element for speed limits

 

The difference would be that your van presumably has never been registered in UK as N1, but van above was originally registered as N1 and then converted,

BTW not sure if that was typo, but the relevant figure is 3050kg unladen whilst in UK.

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that is perhaps it. (I.e. if the van was previously registered as N1 in the UK prior to conversion) -

 

but wouldn't this only be the case on DIY PVC conversions? i.e. someone who buys a previously registered commercial base vehicle and does a later MH conversion to it?

 

**edit*** just read the relevant post and see it was a DIY conversion :$ sorry!

 

I would have thought UK MH manufacturers would do as Globecar did (which was buy a N1 PVC base vehicle, import it without registering it, do the MH conversion - change the Commercial designation to Motor Caravan and M1 class on the convertor final stage CoC) and this would be the basis for first registration.

 

I know <3050kg is the "unladen weight" threshold - threshold for purposes of speed limits https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits but unladen weight is not quoted on the V5C.( and from a number of discussions is not relevant to MH)

my v5c cites

F1 - max permissible Mass (exc m/c) - 3499kg and

G - Mass in service - 2910kg

 

I meant <3500kg, as that is the defining weight for PLG or PHGV taxation purposes

 

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The “M” and “N” references relate to Type Approval categories and, if a vehicle has been assigned a Type Approval class, this won’t change. Type Approval classes are summarised here

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/definition-of-vehicle-categories.asp

 

and ‘coachbuilt’ motorhomes will normally be assigned to the “M1SP” class.

 

The present UK speed limits (detailed here)

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 

were set well before EU Type Approval was introduced in the early-1990s. So, speed-limits-wise, it’s the “Type of vehicle” that counts, not a vehicle’s Type Approval class.

 

(Note the foot-note about “Motorhomes” on the speed-limits link.)

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Gerry McG - 2017-11-06 12:43 PM

 

my v5c cites

F1 - max permissible Mass (exc m/c) - 3499kg and

G - Mass in service - 2910kg

 

I meant <3500kg, as that is the defining weight for PLG or PHGV taxation purposes

 

Actually, if we're being pedantic, (Brian started it, sir!) the split PLG/PHG is = 3500kg

 

My Globecar CoC, and the V5C both have the 3500kg figure. I've always been intrigued by the 3499kg figure, which is not uncommon (and particularly on Dethleffs vehicles, which, of course, the Globecar is). I wonder if it is to cover off some slightly different interpretation of legislation limits in certain Continental countries.

 

I suppose that, technically, to accord with the paperwork, there should also be a Dethleffs VIN plate on the vehicle at that rating.

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Robinhood - 2017-11-06 1:33 PM

 

Actually, if we're being pedantic, (Brian started it, sir!) the split PLG/PHG is = 3500kg

 

 

I note that, despite carefully previewing it, posting changed my line above, which should read.......

 

 

Actually, if we're being pedantic, (Brian started it, sir!) the split PLG/PHG is less than or equal to 3500kg

 

(Previewed again with the correct mathematical sign for LTE, but changed it to = on posting :-( )

 

 

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