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Payloads


Wasnt Me

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Hi a big question but what would you consider to be a workable payload.

 

We are a family of 4, with a dog, bikes and travel with what we want rather that what we need.

 

Our current Mhome has a payload of 619kg and has the requirement for C1 licence (I have my wife does not).

 

I've been thinking of the future and what we would like to go for.

 

But with payloads of 425kg I think we might struggle, to find something under 3500kg.

 

I like the idea of coachbuilt with a rear singles that convert to a massive double and dropdown in the front.

 

Thanks in advance

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I think you might struggle a bit with a family of 4 after the driver and his personal equipment, everything else adds to the pay load a 12 stone adult and two teenagers around 8 stone eats up say 180 kg, 20 kg for the dog that's 200 kg gone already. Factor in the bikes, all those must have items that fill the lockers and never see the light of day, the extra clothes in case it's too hot/cold beer wine chocolate and all the non essential items food crockery and you will soon be looking at 450 to 500.

We are two adult pensioners and a border collie and are away six months or so at a time, I have just uprated to 3850 MAM which gives me just under 550 kg payload even then it's close. Gas tank, second battery, five solar panels, tv, inverter, before we even start. So think long and hard trying to get any decent payload I with under 3500. I am sure many manage it.

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Our van is advertised as having a 500kg payload on a 3500kg total but I am not sure what that includes in terms of accessories, water, fuel and people. We run at the maximum weight with two people, full fuel, full water and the van loaded so we are using all of the available payload. Can't see how it would be possible for you to do this with 4 people plus.
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Wasn't Me - 2018-07-12 11:17 AM

 

Hi a big question but what would you consider to be a workable payload.

 

We are a family of 4, with a dog, bikes and travel with what we want rather that what we need.

 

Our current Mhome has a payload of 619kg and has the requirement for C1 licence (I have my wife does not).

 

I've been thinking of the future and what we would like to go for.

 

But with payloads of 425kg I think we might struggle, to find something under 3500kg.

 

I like the idea of coachbuilt with a rear singles that convert to a massive double and dropdown in the front.

 

Thanks in advance

Time for a weighbridge trip, I think! :-D

 

1) Remove everyone, and everything loose, from the van, drain down the water tank, waste, remove gas cylinders, empty toilet cassette etc so that the van is as empty as it was when new, but make sure the fuel tank is brim full, and visit the weighbridge and get the load on both axles plus the all-up weight.

 

2) Then fully load your van, with full fuel, water and, if possible, full gas cylinder/s, plus everyone who would usually travel, and all pets, toys, food, drinks etc (I know I'm labouring the point, but you'd be surprised how often people say they loaded everything - with about half a tank of water!). What you're looking for is the maximum weight your van is ever likely to be. Then, re-visit the weighbridge and repeat the above exercise.

 

Apart from checking that both axle loads are within legal limits, simply deduct the all up weight as in 1) above from the fully laden weight as in 2) above, and that will tell you what actual payload you presently use. This ignores the usual calculation for payload, which is MAM - Mass in Running Order (MIRO), which I have never found a reliable guide (though it does give a rough indication - providing you carefully read the fine print on how the MIRO is calculated).

 

Add an allowance for growth of the two growing passengers, and that should tell you how much payload you are likely to need in future.

 

Comparing the two sets of individual axle loads will also give you an idea of how the payload distributes between the axles with your present van, which may prove useful when looking at alternative vans.

 

However, finding a 3,500kg MAM 4 berth van that has a truly practical payload will be a big ask. The usual "rue of thumb" weight for an adult is 75kg, which gives 300kg for occupants alone. 100L of water is 100kg. Don't forget that the weights of items such as awning, bike rack, satellite dish, etc all reduce payload kg for kg.

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Thanks for the responses.

 

I did think it was a push.

 

Currently the kids are 10 and 8, so not a huge issue. But as you say they will grow.

 

 

I am intending to get to a weighbridge as I weighed it for a while etc.

 

With regard to axle weights, how do you distribute the weight better? It's quite limiting what you can put in the front. Our current van has twin wheels, so I presume it can take a lot over them.

 

It's a shame it's so expensive to gain a C1.

 

Thanks in advance

 

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Wasn’t Me

 

I think you’ll find that the quoted Mass in Running order of a 2007 Ford Transit-based Chausson Flash 09 was 3131kg and - with a maximum overall weight of 3850kg - that would make the ‘payload’ 719kg.

 

I suppose it’s not possible for you to ‘downplate’ the vehicle to 3500kg so that a C1 driving-licence requirement would not be needed?

 

You’d need to keep a close eye on what you carried with you and (probably) travel with only a limited amount of water in the fresh-water tank, but you might be able to legally operate the Flash 09 at the 3500kg weight as the model would almost certainly have been marketed in France at 3500kg rather than 3850kg. The weighbridge findings should establish how viable such an approach would be.

 

 

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Ok thanks

 

I had it weighed when we got it a few years ago, just before we went away. We were up to the limit of 3850kg and that was before the Spaniel.

 

The payload 619kg was just what I found online.

 

The odd thing is that the chassis plate fitted by Chausson under the bonnet says 3850kg and the documents and sticker Ford put on says 3500kg. So it has dual weights, therefore could be driven on both C1 at the higher weight and you might be able to argue someone without a C1, if it was under 3500.

 

I'm going to the weighbridge on Monday.

 

Thanks

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Wasn't Me - 2018-07-13 2:19 PM

 

The odd thing is that the chassis plate fitted by Chausson under the bonnet says 3850kg and the documents and sticker Ford put on says 3500kg. So it has dual weights, therefore could be driven on both C1 at the higher weight and you might be able to argue someone without a C1, if it was under 3500.

 

Thanks

 

Unfortunately any vehicle can only have one plated weight and it is always the final plate which takes precedence, so the Chausson plate at 3,850 kg is the legal weight.

 

This means it can ONLY be driven by someone with a C1 license. If anyone was stopped driving it without a C1 they would almost certainly be prosecuted for having no license and more importantly no insurance (valid insurance is dependent on having the cord license).

 

Keith

 

PS What weight and tax category are shown on the V5?

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I was with the OP with "We are a family of 4, with a dog" because we were and motorhomed within the 3500kg limit. I stayed with it for "bikes" because if we didn't take any water, we could travel with 4 bikes and still be within the payload. It was the phrase, "and travel with what we want" that had me thinking 'no chance'. There is a little hope in that older motorhomers tend to be lighter than recent vans.

 

If you are plated at 3850kg - your V5C will tell you your Revenue Weight and Maximum Permissible Mass in the unlikely event you do not know [you seem to know], the 3500kg plate is irrelevant. You won't be able to argue the lower plate figure if the DVLA has the higher figure recorded.

 

Garage motorhome layouts are predominantly designed to carry most of the weight at the rear and little at the front. To move the weight to the front axle, you have to shift the heavier items into the storage at the front if it is safe to do so and possible - we moved the food and the tools for the van to the front storage. Our garage now carries only 85kg of which 27kg is the spare wheel. There is only two of us now, the front axle is still almost 400kg within the axle loading and the rear is just 171kg inside.

 

You can motorhome as a family of 4 and dog within a payload of 425kg. You just have to carry a lot less and adapt your style of motorhoming. It might not be as enjoyable as taking the kitchen sink with you.

 

 

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Wasn't Me - 2018-07-13 3:52 PM

 

Thanks

 

The VC5 says 3500kg.

 

So as the V5 shows 3,500 kg that is the absolute MAXIMUM you are legally allowed to run at!

 

Anything over and you run the risk of being prosecuted for overloading the vehicle and your insurance will be invalid.

 

I suggest you trim your load down as far as possible, but include all passengers, and get the MH weighed again.

 

Remember you must NOT exceed your plated weight under any circumstance.

 

Keith

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stevec176 - 2018-07-13 6:18 PM

 

How about having a tow bar fitted and get a trailer so you can at least put the extra stuff in it and that might just keep you under the magic 3500kg.

 

But that will only work if Mrs ‘Wasn’t me’ has B1+E on her license and/or the date she passed her car test.

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The DVSA rules are-

 

"when a fixed penalty notice or conditional offer is issued for an excess weight offence, the examiner will also prevent the vehicle going any further.

 

This is to:

 

stop an overweight vehicle being used on the road

preserve road safety

A fixed penalty is the preferred option for dealing with excess weight offences unless:

 

the offence is too serious

the maximum number of penalty notices would be exceeded

The table below shows the current graduated penalty levels for excess weight matters.

 

Severity Endorsable Fixed penalty amount

Less than 10% No £100

10% up to but not including 15% No £200

15% and over No £300

A £100 penalty will be given for a 0% to 9.99% overload, but DVSA examiners will allow a 5% leeway before issuing a fixed penalty or prohibition, unless the relevant weight has been exceeded by 1 tonne or more."

 

So a 5% leeway on 3500kg is 175kg before any action is deemed necessary, so your theoretical max is 3675kg.

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Keithl - 2018-07-13 3:45 PM

 

Wasn't Me - 2018-07-13 2:19 PM

 

The odd thing is that the chassis plate fitted by Chausson under the bonnet says 3850kg and the documents and sticker Ford put on says 3500kg. So it has dual weights, therefore could be driven on both C1 at the higher weight and you might be able to argue someone without a C1, if it was under 3500.

 

Thanks

 

Unfortunately any vehicle can only have one plated weight and it is always the final plate which takes precedence, so the Chausson plate at 3,850 kg is the legal weight.

 

This means it can ONLY be driven by someone with a C1 license. If anyone was stopped driving it without a C1 they would almost certainly be prosecuted for having no license and more importantly no insurance (valid insurance is dependent on having the cord license).

 

Keith

 

PS What weight and tax category are shown on the V5?

You presently have an anomaly that should be corrected. If the V5C shows 3,500kg, that will be what the van comes up at if you are stopped by the police or DVSA.

 

The Chausson plate is, in terms of the vehicle plating wrong, and, if it has previously been downplated from 3,850kg to 3,500kg, it should carry a 3,500kg plate superseding the Chausson plate.

 

Assuming the vehicle has not been downplated, the V5C figure either relates to an error by the dealer who originally registered the vehicle (not unknown!), or by DVLA at the time they issued the V5C.

 

Whichever, it is an error, and it might come up to bite you, so I suggest you get the V5C corrected. For this, you will almost definitely have to send pictures of both the Ford plate and the updating Chausson plate. Your alternative would be to accept 3,500kg (which I suspect will leave you overloaded :-)), and get the van formally plated down to 3,500kg.

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Wow a lot to consume.

 

The big issue that I've not mentioned yet is....

 

I broke my collarbone last week and we go to France in 2 weeks.

 

So it would be really useful is my better half could drive it.

 

Thanks I will digest all this later. As in the pub.....

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Brian thanks for your response

 

I think that it must have been a error when it was registered as the previous owner used to carry a motor scooter in the garage and surely this would have pushed it way over the maximum weight.

 

I know I need to do something about it before we get stopped but currently it seems my wife could drive it if we get it under 3500kg. Using Billggski tolerances might make this possible.

 

The weighbridge will answer all the questions I suspect, we have started shedding weight.

 

Maybe I need to leave the kids and the dog at home.

 

Thanks in advance

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Oh and thanks for the trailer suggestion we do have a tow bar, but I think if I suggest to my wife she tows a small trailer, this might push her over the edge. 8-)

 

I'm not sure what her licence says she passed in 2004, so she missed out on C1.

 

I think a trailer might be a hindrance also as we are stopping at a few aires on the way down.

 

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Brian Kirby - 2018-07-13 7:03 PM

 

You presently have an anomaly that should be corrected. If the V5C shows 3,500kg, that will be what the van comes up at if you are stopped by the police or DVSA.

 

The Chausson plate is, in terms of the vehicle plating wrong, and, if it has previously been downplated from 3,850kg to 3,500kg, it should carry a 3,500kg plate superseding the Chausson plate.

 

Assuming the vehicle has not been downplated, the V5C figure either relates to an error by the dealer who originally registered the vehicle (not unknown!), or by DVLA at the time they issued the V5C.

 

Whichever, it is an error, and it might come up to bite you, so I suggest you get the V5C corrected. For this, you will almost definitely have to send pictures of both the Ford plate and the updating Chausson plate. Your alternative would be to accept 3,500kg (which I suspect will leave you overloaded :-)), and get the van formally plated down to 3,500kg.

 

As will be apparent from the following link

 

https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/reviews/motorhome/30184-chausson-flash-09

 

the Chausson Flash 09 model is a relatively large vehicle built on a Ford Transit rear-wheel-drive (RWD) chassis with a twinned-wheel rear axle.

 

As I’ve touched on above Chausson built several overcab ‘family' models on that long-wheelbase RWD Transit chassis and (as a result of French driving-licencing norms) these were all marketed in France with a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of 3500kg and with a very limited payload.

 

However, for the UK market where many motorhome buyers held the C1 licence entitlement, these Chausson models were always marketed at 3850kg as contemporary UK Chausson brochures confirm. At that time quite a few Continental European motorhome manufacturers were building on this ‘heavy duty’ Transit RWD chassis (Hobby, Rimor, etc.) and it was standard policy for those vehicles to be marketed in France with a 3500kg MAM, but in the UK with a 3850kg MAM to gain a realistic payload.

 

The Chausson data-plate overrides the Ford plate and, if there’s no evidence to prove that the Chausson plate itself has been overridden (ie. there’s a 3rd data-plate indicating that the motorhome’s original 3850kg MAM has been officially downplated to 3500kg) the Chausson plate takes precedence. As Keith has said, it’s the 3850kg on the Chausson data-plate that requires a driver to have (at least) a C1 driving licence entitlement, and what’s on the V5C does not change that requirement.

 

A 3850kg MAM means that the Chausson should be registered in the Private HGV ‘road tax’ class and this should be reflected in the information on the vehicle’s V5C registration certificate. Over the years plenty of motorhomes have been placed in the wrong road-tax class when they have been first UK-registered. The options are as you advise in your final paragraph - as things stand a C1 entitlement is needed to legally drive the motorhome.

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"So a 5% leeway on 3500kg is 175kg before any action is deemed necessary, so your theoretical max is 3675kg."

 

 

I would not advise relying on that. Weighbridges are not expected to be accurate to the last kg and are calibrated to within a specified tolerance. One of the reasons for the 5% is to take account of that tolerance. If you had weighed at your theoretical max on a bridge that weighed light, albeit within permissible tolerance, an enforcement weigh might then find you over by a sufficient margin to warrant a penalty.

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Wasn't Me - 2018-07-14 8:48 AM

 

What if I remove the plate under the bonnet?

 

If it weighs less than 3500kg +/- the stated tolerances.

 

If we get stopped, how would anyone know it was ever plated at 3850kg?

 

Well, if you remove the Chausson plate (which, as a ‘multi-stage’ vehicle your Chausson motorhome should have) you’ll be doing something illegal.

 

It’s like asking whether, if you commit adultery, what the likelihood is that you might be found out and, if so, what the result would be.

 

Please yourself - you know you shouldn’t do this...

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