snowie Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hi all; we have a STAKO gas tank mounted underfloor on the centreline of the van, just behind the main chassis crossmember behind the cab seats. It's a great system, although I still don't really like the connection/disconnect process, but that's just me, and why I'm unlikely to have a LPG conversion for the car. My question relates to the main gas shutoff which is on the tank and located on the centreline of the van. I'm finding it less easy to crawl underneath in all weathers just before using a ferry, and afterwards to turn gas back on for a cuppa! Is anyone aware of a remote on/off mechanism that could be operated from the drivers seat or a switch close by the sliding door; and a company that would fit it? We are in the Newark/Lincoln area regards alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Snowie, try Autogas 2000 in Thirsk. http://www.autogas.co.uk/ They may be able to mount a valve where the pipe enters the MH which I think should be acceptable to ferries as you can show them it is off. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 But wouldn't the shutting of an additional valve in the van, be pretty much the same a closing the manifold taps that are already fitted?. No first hand experience but I always thought it was the mechanical valve on a tank or cylinder that needed to be closed?, and not just some additional "in-line" valve, 1-2mtrs down the line?... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hi; I already have a manifold with connections and shutoffs to hob, water and air heater, under the sink/hob and can shut that off , but as Pepe says it's the big red valve under the protective cover, on the tank that I have to crawl to at the moment . If I had it fitted again, I'd consider locating it nearer to the side of the van, within an arm's length, cheers, alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazooka Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hi snowy,I have a similar problem,my tank is at the back of the van in a false floor,I have to kneel on a matt and can just reach the main valve on the tank at full arms length.I wonder iff anyone could come up with someyhing that could grab the valve and rotate it,maybe it would have to include a ratchet to get enough turns on it and be on the end of abar about 3ft long in my case.But in my case i'd still have to kneel on the floor. Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikey Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hi Snowie We have a IH van conversion and while we were having a small warranty job done they moved the onboard regulator to a position at the rear of the sliding door so you can put your hand just underneath and turn the gas off. A simple job to do yourself or a easier job for registered gas fitter at any workshop Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I would imagine that cars adapted to work on LPG would have some kind of automatic shut off valve, possibly triggered by the ignition switch. I know a fellow MHomer who has his grey water oulet valve operated by an electrical switch. So, it can't be beyond the wit of man to devise something similar for a gas tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 The capability to remotely shut off a motorhome’s external LPG tank was discussed in some detail in this 2014 forum thread http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Autogas-lpg-tanks-and-Eurotunnel/34967/ with a (sort of) follow-up in 2015 here http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/-Vans-with-on-board-gas-tanks/39111/ Electrically-operated shut-off valves appear to be available in France that could be attached to an LPG tank immediately ‘upstream’ of the tank’s own shut-off valve. This would still leave the tank’s own shut-off valve open, of course (which MIGHT matter to a ferry operator I suppose) and there seems to be no evidence that such valves are marketed in the UK or that any UK LPG specialist has had experience of fitting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 That's disappointing Derek!! Maybe the best or only solution is to relocate the tank closer to the side of the van, within my short arm's length then, cheers alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 It is legal (in some countries, eg France) to use a MH's LPG system (eg the habitation heater, a modern Truma heater is so designed) on the move, providing the vehicle is fitted with an automatic crash cut-off device, for example the device sold by Truma as a feature of its LPG regulators. (It is illegal in France not to have an automatic crash shut-off if you don't shut off at the bottles before moving off.) Truma also sell a remote manual gas valve which goes on to the LP end of the regulator but I doubt if this would be regarded in France as an adequate substitute for an automatic shut-off on the regulator. I decided to upgrade my MH's gas system a couple of years ago by replacing the regulator with the latest Truma type (with automatic crash shut off device as well as automatic changeover between bottles) and I decided (possibly going a bit OTT) to add the Truma remote gas shut-off valve immediately downstream of the regulator too. The resultant system can be shut off remotely (using a switch inside the MH) when gas is not in use as well as the new benefit of an automatic crash shut-off, if the worst happens. It was quite an expensive upgrade, costing over £500 including labour. The remote switch is alongside the passenger seat and Management (my OH) now religiously switches off using the remote gas shut-off as we start moving, which I never bothered to do when it would have meant shutting off at the bottles. We haven't yet had the need to use the gas habitation heater on the move but I feel we could do so safely if we wanted to. (That doesn't mean I would use other gas devices such as the gas hob on the move!) These shut-offs only operate on the LP side of the regulator so the flexible HP hose from the gas bottles to the HP side of the regulator could still be a source of risk. I anticipate the Eurotunnel would still want us to turn off at the bottles but I take the risk of not doing so in normal use by using the remote gas shut-off instead. I'm quite happy with my (arguably OTT) upgrade but I suggest the OP of this thread should move his underslung tank closer to the side of the MH as the first step because Eurotunnel are going make him crawl underneath anyway. Unless of course he can persuade his OH to do the crawling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 This link is to installation/operating instructions for Truma’s Secumotion/Drive-Safe system (now superseded by Truma’s Crash Sensor system) https://www.truma.com/downloadcenter/secumotion_installation_instruction_de_gb_it_fr_nl_dk_e.pdf On Page 12 of the document the French regulations applying to operating an LPG-fuelled heater in a moving vehicle are stated as follows: "In France the operation of the gas system while driving is only permitted in type-tested vehicles with initial registration as of 01.01.2007. In older vehicles the operation of the gas system while driving is non-permissible, even in combination with a safety shut-off device.” So even if the gas system of a pre-2007 motorhome were to be ‘updated’ to conform to heating equipment directive 2001/56/EC with annexes 2004/78/EC and 2006/119/EC, it would still not be ‘legal' to drive the vehicle in France with a heating system running from gas. The On/Off output valve of an LPG tank as typically fitted to motorhomes is shown in the attached photo. The valve is of the type fitted to many LPG cylinders and requires manual rotation to open/close. To remotely close off the gas supply actually at the tank’s outlet would either involve replacing the original valve with (presumably) an electrically-operated one, or rigging up some sort of electrical and/or mechanical arrangement that would allow the original valve to be rotated from a distance. And the best of luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Passing the euro tunnel requires the hand shut-off valves closed. And also driving it is wise to do so. We are talking here about the most flammable technical gas. Propane is heavier than air. Natural gas not. Propane has a very high calorific value. Therefore in a motor home it has drain holes in the bottom of your gas locker. Another high flammable gas is hydrogen which will be used in a future car gas tank like LPG but at high pressure. That gas is very thin in weight. Never forget the importance of safety using gases heavier than air LPG is a mix and is available on the road.It need more maintenance on your equipment. And your Wobble index is changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I think you mean “Wobbe index” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobbe_index not something like this ;-) Although ‘autogas’ is often a mixture of butane and propane, in the UK it’s as near 100% propane as makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 If you smell gas in your gas locker you have a leak. Whit a spark free tel con bronze tool you can strengthened the rubber gas seal. There is not a defined gas smell. Natural gas of methane as no smell but a chemical is injected what we smell as being gas. Only use skilled personal and witness the leak test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Alan, have you been able to turn off the valve, to the satisfaction of Eurotunnel, up to now? I only ask because with a cylinder in a gas locker, they are easily able to witness (and, if they choose, physically verify) that the gas is off. In your case, they'd have to climb under the van with you to do this - which seems a little improbable. It isn't clear whether the cylinder is fore and aft, or transverse, mounted. However, if fore and aft, with the valve facing to one side of the van, could an extender be fitted to the valve head to allow it to be turned from the side of the van? Alternatively, could the pipework be modified to place the valve elsewhere within easy reach? Failing that, moving the tank seems the obvious alternative, as you suggest. I assume the installer could advise on the practicality of these options. Seems it's either that, or take the ferry instead! :-) Eurotunnel say: "Gas containers must be switched off whilst travelling and connection systems must be in good condition. Opening the container tap or using domestic services is strictly forbidden until the vehicle has unloaded on the opposite terminal. Note: Containers must be easy of access by our staff for any check. Eurotunnel reserves the right to cancel your journey in case of non compliance with the conditions expressed above." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Not in belgium we have summer and winter mixes like diesel. But as near as propane? In Spain same. Can you prove the uk mix by shell and Bp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Yes of course I can, I wouldn’t have said it otherwise! See my posting of 27 August 2009 7:25 AM in this 2009 discussion http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Gaslow-What-is-it-/17027/ It’s easy enough to ‘prove’ that UK autogas is 100% propane if one’s motorhome has a regulator with a pressure gauge on its inlet and you have access to refillable and non-refillable gas bottles. The gauge’s pressure-reading that’s recorded when a non-refillable propane-gas bottle is connected to the regulator is the same as the reading when a refillable bottle with UK ‘autogas’ in it is connected to the regulator, indicating that the gas in the latter bottle is also propane. And there’s the fact that the autogas tank at my local filling-station has “PROPANE” marked on it in large letters... (It also becomes apparent from the regulator’s pressure-gauge readout when non-UK autogas is used that autogas in other countries can be a butane/propane mixture.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Returning to the original enquiry, it appears that electrically-operated shut-off valves are commonplace (perhaps mandatory?) for LPG vehicle fuel-tanks as shown in these images http://tinyurl.com/z9hk2wl So it MIGHT be practicable to graft one of these 12v solenoid shut-off valves on to the On/Off outlet-valve of a motorhome’s LPG vapour-takeoff tank if a motorcaravanner were really concerned about shutting off the gas supply while driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmac Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Hi my Autosleeper/Mirage mh has a built in underfloor lpg tank.It has 2 take off points,one for vapour (fridge,cooker,truma heating) and one liquid for the built in honda generator.Both connections are switched on/off by a single rocker switch that is integrated with a 1 red 5 green neon contents level indicator panel. When switched on you can hear the solenoid activate and the red light comes on followed by the greens according to gas levels. There is a relay that only allows the gas valve to open when the mh ignition is switched off. When asked by Eurotunnel to switch off lpg I explain and demonstrate to them how it works and they are quite happy, both sides of the tunnel. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowie Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 davidmac - 2017-01-14 7:44 PM Both connections are switched on/off by a single rocker switch that is integrated with a 1 red 5 green neon contents level indicator panel. When switched on you can hear the solenoid activate and the red light comes on followed by the greens according to gas levels. There is a relay that only allows the gas valve to open when the mh ignition is switched off. When asked by Eurotunnel to switch off lpg I explain and demonstrate to them how it works and they are quite happy, both sides of the tunnel. Regards David Sounds like what I would like to achieve David. I'll see what my regular van/habitation servicing engineer can do. Just to clarify; I've so far not used the Tunnel, preferring ferries, and avoiding the Calais area. On ferries I have been asked if the gas has been turned off, maybe twice in six years, but I always turn it off anyway. Never been asked to prove it has been turned off. cheers alan b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 snowie - 2017-01-14 11:35 PM ...I'll see what my regular van/habitation servicing engineer can do... I strongly suggest you follow Keithl’s earlier advice to contact Autogas 2000 about what you want to do, as this firm has extensive experience of motorhome LPG-tank systems and vehicle LPG fuel conversions. The vapour-and-liquid-take-off LPG tank on David’s Mirage is specialised and will have designed-in safety features. Turning off a motorhome’s LPG vapour-take-off tank remotely has been asked about in the past on motorhome forums, but (as far as I’m aware) there’s never been any subsequent feedback to indicate that the capability has been retrofiited. By all means ask your servicing engineer’s opinion, but it would be wise to check with Autogas 2000 first. Regarding moving the LPG tank to a position where the outlet-valve can be more easily accessed, this link http://deepredmotorhome.com/gas.php relates to a self-build Ducato X250-based PVC with an LPG tank that was initially mounted close to the vehicle’s body-side sill and then moved up under the chassis. The photos make it easy to see the pros and cons of both positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 snowie - 2017-01-14 11:35 PMdavidmac - 2017-01-14 7:44 PMBoth connections are switched on/off by a single rocker switch that is integrated with a 1 red 5 green neon contents level indicator panel. When switched on you can hear the solenoid activate and the red light comes on followed by the greens according to gas levels. There is a relay that only allows the gas valve to open when the mh ignition is switched off. When asked by Eurotunnel to switch off lpg I explain and demonstrate to them how it works and they are quite happy, both sides of the tunnel.Regards DavidSounds like what I would like to achieve David.I'll see what my regular van/habitation servicing engineer can do.Just to clarify; I've so far not used the Tunnel, preferring ferries, and avoiding the Calais area.On ferries I have been asked if the gas has been turned off, maybe twice in six years, but I always turn it off anyway. Never been asked to prove it has been turned off.cheersalan b Although the Eurotunnel LPG checking seems to be more rigorous and consistent than the ferries' versions, clearly they don't always put their hands on the container valves to check that they are turned off either - but their written rules say they should and they might well do so. From memory I don't really remember the Tunnel people actually physically checking the valves every time but they have done it once or twice. Whether they would turn you away if they discovered the tank was underneath and called for some crawling remains a possibility. But they might, so if you want to cater for that and avoid having to crawl underneath, the OP is still going to have to move the tank towards the side of the MH to be able to reach it and allow the Eurotunnel staff to reach it, whatever additional system of shut-off valves he fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 StuartO - 2017-01-15 10:01 AM..............From memory I don't really remember the Tunnel people actually physically checking the valves every time but they have done it once or twice. .......... Interesting. We've used it about 25 times since 2010, both directions, and I can't remember a single occasion when I didn't have to open the gas locker to show that the cylinder valves were closed. If there was one, I'm certain it was only following my assurance that the valves were shut. For this reason, my conditioned expectation has always been that I shall have to open the locker, and either turn off the gas myself, or allow the operative to test that they are closed. Must be my face! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-01-15 1:08 PMStuartO - 2017-01-15 10:01 AM..............From memory I don't really remember the Tunnel people actually physically checking the valves every time but they have done it once or twice. ..........Interesting. We've used it about 25 times since 2010, both directions, and I can't remember a single occasion when I didn't have to open the gas locker to show that the cylinder valves were closed. If there was one, I'm certain it was only following my assurance that the valves were shut. For this reason, my conditioned expectation has always been that I shall have to open the locker, and either turn off the gas myself, or allow the operative to test that they are closed. Must be my face! :-D I've almost always had to open the gas locker but they certainly haven't always physically checked that the bottle valves are off. I have also been waved along without any check before boarding a train - but the Tunnel staff are more diligent than the ferries, where I've been waved through more often than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjl Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Hi Have you considered a weatherproof hatch in the floor so you can easily reach the valve. Perhaps in the floor of a cupboard? . In my Globecar you have to open the back doors to access the gas locker sooooooo in the wooden side of the locker I fitted a white boats bouyancy hatch which is air tight. Through this ( about 5 inches in diameter) I can reach the gas taps for both my cylinders. The hatch is made to keep water out and air in, it has a rubber seal that is easily replaced if damaged. Being white it looks like any other fitting. Now I don't have to open the back doors in bad weather just to turn a tap. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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